Unconditioned

I completely agree, but then again my opinion is very one-sided as I've only had a handful of teachers in my life (coaches, school teachers, etc.). I do agree that comparing experiencing the Tao with learning a programming language really can't compare, excellent point from Martial. I think for me, it's the fear of finding a teacher that leads me astray that keeps me from seeking a personal teacher. At the same time I think there is a lot to be said about personal meditation practice and even then I really hate that word because it implies so many things that I don't consider mediation. All that said, I can't help but come back to the few individuals that have figured these things out on their own such as Ramana Maharishi and J.Krishnamurti. Maybe it's just a fantasy that the average person can figure it out by seeing what our conditioning is and what the True nameless Self is, never adding or taking away, but just being a part of what is. Either way, definitely some things to consider regarding finding a teacher, thanks everyone.

The force that manifests, living and non-living things included, the 'thing' that causes movement, allows a seed to go from non-living to living, etc.

What is backing your opinion for depending on a teacher? I hear "don't be lazy" implied, which is absolutely a valid point if that's the only reason for not choosing to learn from a teacher. Some people seem to learn pretty well on their own in the material world. When I was in college I hardly went to class and just learned from the book. I've taught myself most of what I use in my professional life SQL, PHP, C++, PMP certified, blah blah) and my personal life (self-taught guitarist playing in a band with regular gigs, learning Italian right now, etc.). That's not a pat on the back, it's my personal learning preference in the material world and it's worked so far for those things. I'm sure there are other people that have learned on their own within this forum too. I'm interested in understanding a bit more about why you chose a teacher though. Is it because they have experience in their art that you can pick up easier in person? Is it because you trust them based on that experience? Is it because your learning preference is more kinesthetic? Is it because you find it helpful to have someone keep you 'in check' to make sure you're doing the right things? Is it to have someone else show you things about yourself and your practice that you wouldn't otherwise see? etc. etc. Edit: I should also add that there are many types of practices with many goals in mind. Personally, my goal is to experience Truth, Reality, Tao, whatever you want to call it. My focus isn't on achieving immortality, special abilities, self-defense, etc. right now although all of which I can see many reasons to pursue.

Ahh, that is a much clearer explanation! Ironically I think I was digging for answers that were 'already attained'

This site was recently launched: http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/ They have tagged k's complete works, all searchable, all free.. including videos. There is also a FAQ that was asked of him and references on each topic. If you haven't checked out anything but krishnamurti, he gets straight to the root of our 'problems' and puts everything in plain english. Just thought I'd share with the rest of the bums!

Or perhaps real Truth is universal, outside of the labels we give it which is why a lot of 'descriptions' have similar themes? As a side note, I have to commend both you and Carson for a constructive discussion where you both might not agree on some points but are mature enough to explore either side and stay away from petty arguments. Bravo, I hope we can see more of that around the forums!

This one is tricky for me too but I'll take a stab at it. To abide in the Reality that is always attained... I think this means continuously attained which implies that it is not permanent, it's a constant movement. Being in that state of not attaining/accumulating it is the only thing to Attain. All achievements, 'rewards', abilities etc. are illusory like our dreams. They further the though of the permanent self. When we're in the dream it seems real, when we wake up we see that it was just a dream. So can they appear real to someone who has woken up from sleep? No in the sense that it's not 'real', what is True however is that the attainments are illusions but the illusions themselves are not Reality. Can those that are established in Reality be deluded by them? I would suspect not... I think the message here is that attaining an achievement, ability, etc. is not the same thing as being established in Reality. I also think Ramana is trying to tell us that if we're deluded by attainments, if we see them as Real, then we are not abiding in Reality. Anyone else?

If you take this one step further, what is faith? It's a belief... based on what? PRIOR experiences or imagining what the future could be (based on the total of all prior experiences). Do we base our faith on something we can't really know? I think we base it on something that we can and do know, our past (using our in the sense of human history) in hopes that it will lead us to the unknowable. Edit: I'm not condemning faith here, just trying to examine what it is. If we call it 'good' or 'bad' what are we basing that judgment from?

I see neither extremes or non-extremes in the symbol. I just see totality, everything, with no division except the division we create. Aspects of the whole are created when we divide up the whole into parts. For me the most important part of the symbol is the circle that encompasses the light and dark shades. To me it's screaming "yes or no, light or dark, it's all part of the same 'everything'!!!"

This is a question, not a judgment so please try to answer without being defensive. My impresions are based on very limited experience with people that practice various cultivation schools. I've had a hard time understanding the reason for cultivation of Qi. What is the essence of this cultivation? I've seen a lot of reasons that seem to be self-serving such as being able to beat the snot out of someone, feel important about oneself, making money, etc. I've also seen some reasons that seem to be self-sacrificing such as using energy to heal others, to be able to serve a cause, to defend/protect, etc. But what is the end-goal of cultivating Qi? Is it related to the idea of liberation/enlightenment? Is the end goal defendant on the specific practice?

I agree, however, the idea about Qi, experiences with it, memories of it, the feeling of Qi in our bodies, etc. Are just that, sensations, memories, etc. All movement comes from it's stillness but once we solidify our ideas about it it is no longer the moving flowing thing, it is the static idea. I think it's important to understand that, otherwise it can be easy to fall into the trap of working with energy for the pleasure of it and adding layers that will need to be 'passed through' to merge with the Tao. I think that's all implied in your response but felt like 'running my mouth' for a bit

I think the most valuable thing that my parents had done for me was to not push me in a specific direction. They gave me the freedom to choose my own interests and they supported me the entire time. Obviously there's a balance between discipline and freedom to be a kid but looking back on my childhood, I couldn't be more grateful for the freedom that they gave me. The one thing that I would've liked to see different was that my mother tried to motivate me through fear to get things done (chores mostly). I'm honestly still dealing with that fearful conditioning and I think this has held me back to some degree... I think that influenced my personality to be more of a people-pleaser and conflict avoider. Congrats on the baby!

For what it's worth, I'm in a similar place. I had known about the concept of chi but saw it as an obstacle towards figuring out what this life is all about. I'm not after special powers or training for the UFC or being able to cast spells, etc. But if you think about it, trying to exclude something to get to something else is no different than clinging to something to get something out of it - it's just grasping in another direction (against vs. for). So my personal goal is just to learn what life is or is not and to do it at the most personal level. I'm alive so I figured why not start with knowing what "I" am. It's all been downhill from there and Tao Bums has been my favorite place to talk about the whole thing.

Wow, quite a range of reasons. Thank you everyone, I think I'm starting to get a sense for why I especially like the job analogy, good stuff.

Why Lazarus Laughed, Wei Wu Wei It was a difficult read, but that forced me to really think about what he was trying to say a few sentences at a time. Honestly, I still don't 'get' all of it but over time a lot of the content has become a lot clearer.

Depends on your definition of understanding, but to set context for the rest of the reply, understanding is different than knowledge. Knowledge is the accumulation of ideas and understanding is impossible to express with words, it's more of an experience than accumulation if that makes sense. I do this constantly too, "OOOH! Now I get it! It works like....". Then I label my last 'theory' as petty in comparison. This cycle going on over and over. I don't see anything wrong with this unless we cling to what we think we know as Truth. It may be an aspect of Truth, but total/complete Truth cannot be pieced together like a Frankenstein, it has to be experienced in totality. For example, you can describe how a food tastes but the description will only be based on a comparison and the person hearing it will not experience what you have, only a comparison to other experiences. I smile and move on. If another experience comes up great, if another one doesn't, great. Basically, I have no expectation of 'getting there' again. To do this I've looked into what experience is and is not (and I'm still at it so take this with a grain of salt). Is an experience sensation? Like I feel light, heavy, happy, sad, etc. If experience is just a sensation then it is a product of our senses combined with an interpretation of those sensations. Both sensation and interpretation are limited. Sensation is limited by our physical conditions and interpretation is limited by our mental conditions. SO, if we can see experiences for what they are then, for me at least, I do not become attached to them and just chalk it up to 'part of the process'. It depends on who I'm talking to. But generally I don't verbalize them since it only helps to solidify something that has already past and is just a product of memory. Every time. Interpretation of anything is based on our previous experiences and is limited by our conditioning. Recognizing them for what they are, just a flicker in our memory after the event, is a steppingstone in and of itself. Each time I have a 'deeper' experience it's an opportunity to examine what experience is, so in that sense it's very useful to examine but I personally don't verbalize with many people. Just my long winded 2c Great questions though, I like this topic. Great!!! I do this especially when something upsets me or when I get angry. I exaggerate (in my head) my emotion. Like if I'm upset that the person in front of me is driving too slow I picture myself getting out of my car, jumping on the roof up and down flailing my arms like a madman. Then as I watch that mental image of myself I usually find it pretty funny and realize that the way I feel at that time is just as absurd as the madman I picture.

There is nothing wrong or right with a path or with no path. They are the same thing, they are a striving or an evading. But you can't have the good without the bad, the material without the immaterial, you can't add or take away from the Tao. We all have to go beyond path and no-path (both of which are beliefs/experiences/whatever) but are all fragmented reality. Can we know the void? Can we feel emptiness? If we say "yes" it is knowable, we are creating an image, an idea of what those things are. If we say "no" we cannot we are also creating an image, an idea of what those things are. But if we ask the question, without an answer without a predisposition, what happens? We stop dead in our (mental) tracks and the mind quiets. In this state, without expectation (that's just another image/idea)... then...

Every night before I sleep for as long as it takes. Usually anywhere from 10-30 minutes... not really looking to log a certain amount of time doing it just doing "whatever feels right" time wise.

Whether it's elitist pride or 'country' pride... it's all pride and creates division. If the sht hits the fan, the last thing on anyones mind should be "HAH I told you so!!". We'll have bigger issues at hand... maybe helping each other instead of boasting over who is better or gets "the last laugh" will be more important... survival isn't all about competition, it's about making things work and using each other's strengths to keep it all going. We need blue and white collar jobs equally and a little less finger pointing in my opinion.

What is the root of cause? What is Karma dependent on? I tend to agree that some of these Buddhist concepts can do more harm than good especially when they're sensationalized in the West as people thinking that their sum of experiences will continue on. Sort of like the Christian idea of Heaven where a lot of Christians believe they will continue their lives in another realm and keep their memories. I also detect a sense of being defensive, what's the harm in questioning beliefs? Didn't the Buddha teach to not accept but to find out for oneself? Please don't take these questions as attacks, they are just genuine questions. Edit: Also, what happens when samskara is no more? Does Karma 'cease'? Is it 'burned' out?

Investigate them and see which resonates most with you. In my personal experience, I've tried methods that I would normally not do due to my preferences, to try to 'force' a change, and it was more frustrating than going with the school that felt most natural while being attentive to keep things balanced. For example, if you're very cerebral don't forget that there's a physical aspect to this existence too... or is there?

Wow, that's VERY close to how things have gone so far for me. Beliefs with enthusiasm Skeptical of Beliefs Agnostic Sure there is no God (conscious person-like being pulling the strings) Lost trust of all dogma ('theist and atheist) Unsure of anything Investigation/search See things as they are Create conditions to experience unfiltered Truth ??? Hmm it could be a hindrance or an aid but as stated before once we're done with the tools we need, we don't need the tools anymore.

And potentially fewer nose bleeds!

I've only taken a few different types to date (mushrooms, marijuana, salvia, kratom) I think they've helped more than they've hurt but that's hard to say objectively. They enabled me to see 'reality' in very different lights which shook me up enough to be open minded about other possibilities. Especially mushrooms, the first time I used them I remember thinking "omg I get it! Everything makes perfect sense!" and laughing/smiling for some time after the realization. I even still have memories of what I was picturing while on mushrooms that first time that have made more and more sense to me over time. For example, I was laughing so hard as I was picturing myself at work stressed out and taking things so seriously.. under the influence i found it hysterical since it was all 'fake' in a way.

Isn't the intent of "no intention" an intent of it's own?