Unconditioned
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Everything posted by Unconditioned
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How so? If you think you experienced it, it is just a thought that you experienced, not what is actually happening. Edit: removed unneeded words.
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Similarly, the commonly misquoted Bible passage "for the LOVE of money is the root of all evil", it is the DESIRE for power which, technically is neither good nor bad, but reinforces the ego. A desire based on illusion results in illusion.
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This is from the Tao Te Ching translated by J. Legge 29 If any one should wish to get the kingdom for himself, and to effect this by what he does, I see that he will not succeed. The kingdom is a spirit-like thing, and cannot be got by active doing. He who would so win it destroys it; he who would hold it in his grasp loses it. The course and nature of things is such that What was in front is now behind; What warmed anon we freezing find. Strength is of weakness oft the spoil; The store in ruins mocks our toil. Hence the sage puts away excessive effort, extravagance, and easy indulgence.
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I believe the reason is the difference in energy consumption to reduce greenhouse gas emmissions and in general conserve non-renewable fuel sources.
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What is wrong with the new age movement?
Unconditioned replied to mewtwo's topic in General Discussion
This is a tough one for me to describe but I'll try. I'm not completely against it per se but movements need to be dropped at some point; or at a minimum seen for what they are. Basically, any movement, ideology, dogma, etc. further conditions us and likewise we condition the movement/ideology/etc. So from conception the new age movement is one thing and a minute later it is something different. So if we look at both sets of conditioning we may run into difficulty. The dogma of the movement may point us is the right direction or it may completely mislead us and only add to our conditioning. Then, the members of the movement, even it's creator/sponsor, how do we know for certain that they are trustworthy? Just because a lineage has lasted a long time does that insure it is one worth pursuing (there are many examples of ideologies that have been around for thousands of years that have done little more than provide an ethical system for living in society). Ultimately, we end up putting our faith in something that may be of no value to us and we might even be the cause of tainting the essence of the movement. Now all that said, there is value in investigating, experiencing, and 'testing' an ideology for ourselves, seeing what happens when we follow it. If we look at it and try to find it's real essence, it's core purpose, I suspect we will find truth no matter the path. At the end of the day, we'll need to figure out for ourselves what is true. Even the idea of no-dogma is itself another dogma. Even the idea of "take a flower from each tradition and make your own bouquet" is a form of dogma. What are we really cultivating with practice? What are we really practicing and what is the result? Don't read into these, I'm asking the questions with no intention one way or the other, just innocent questions that I personally haven't figured out yet. Nor have I subscribed to one particular practice mostly out of fear of becoming attached to it and forming the same irrational beliefs as I did when I was a Christian. But perhaps if we can get to the root of practice and it's essence... what are we really searching for? hmm. -
That's what I was getting at with a few of mine, but you stated it much better. I think it all starts with a deep/good definition of virtue...
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This one is really interesting. He describes why we can't recognize Reality and he also is careful to use "inherent" which means it is available to everybody. In addition we fail to abide in the 'Heart' ... as a result we debate about it's all in the mind, it's all material, or some combination of the two. I think this also implies a wasted effort in those pursuits to categorize and debate.
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What is the cause of Virtue? Can one be virtuous without effort? Can one strive for virtue and still remain in humility? What is the motivation in us to be virtuous? What is the motivation in us to 'run' from virtue? Can virtue be objective?
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Very well said, and honest! I wonder the reason death isn't talked about as much in Taoist texts as it is others.. hmm.
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Ok here goes: You are what you eat, death of your 'self' is immortality. Now, let me explain briefly from as much a taoist perspective I know (frankly isn't all the extensive). Tao is the way, it is the Truth, it is the driving force that moves everything, it is life, consciousness, etc. It is the everything that there is therefor it is not an individual/separate thing - it is nothing... so it is everything and nothing. Your idea of a self, a personality, an 'image' is just that - an image. Everything you see, taste, touch, all your emotions, your level of energy, etc. create an imprint in your memory. Over time this accumulation you label 'me' or 'self' (when you're very young). All your thoughts are based off your past thoughts. So "you are what you eat". Once we see what the self really is then we realize that it's not whole, complete, it's fragmented reality, it's tinted by our likes and dislikes, etc. When we realize that, then we see that those things are only partial reality but we are not apart from it. It is what it is. Soooo when those things die, the memories, the body, the bones, what was lost? Nothing. If nothing is lost then it is immortal, ever moving, everything keeps on being everything. Here's the problem: by me telling you that, I've added a memory and pointed you in a certain direction. To really grasp what immortality is, you have to dig for yourself rather than take my idea and turn it into a belief.
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Likewise many masters have said in so many words to 'test' it for yourself. Jesus, Buddha, etc. Having the courage to test what you've heard/seen/concluded and to actually do that can remove a lot of stumbling blocks. Approaching these verses with an open mind of 'let me check that out' rather than 'yes, that sounds good, i'll buy that' will, in my opinion, bring you closer to what the author is pointing towards.
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Depends on your definition of "you", "death", and "immortality". I'm sure you'll find a lot of different responses. At the end of the day, find out what/who dies and you'll find your answer.
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I'm not asking the questions to lead you to a specific answer, they are just questions, further inquiry. Can we perceive without bias? Is there a separation between "reality in the here and now" and "reality we are growing aware of"? If there is, what is different? Is it material? Is it our opinion? Is it the same reality with a different quality to it? Can there be a reality with no quality at all, one that just 'is'? I think so, but why? Why would people act in that way? What would the motivation be? Is it a result of "this is how we are supposed to be" aka more conditioning? I honestly don't know because I'm not there yet, so I just have ideas on 'what could happen' once we're unconditionally aware. As I've read in a few places, what we interpret as love, thoughtfulness, etc. is a result of awareness and is not brought about by a specific effort or ideal. The news is a business and in order to stay in business it reports on what gets ratings. That's one aspect. The other is that we live in a world that is in constant conflict. From as small as keeping up with the Jones' to as large as the wars and crime that is going on. Throughout history this has been a major part of our life. But, again more questions lol, why is there conflict? Why is there violence? What is the root cause of these things? Hmm. All the best, Nate
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Haha, that one made me laugh... then cry a little on the inside as I'm a project manager. Very very good question... you can't leave anything out or add something that isn't already there. Everything is everything. What we can do, is see it for what it is without adding our likes/dislikes.
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The "Get a Job, Have a Wife, Make a Child , Get a Life" Thread
Unconditioned replied to 宁's topic in General Discussion
Just offering up a response to your questions Why do we need to pay debts at all? Are we separate from our causes? Why does one need to gain trust and support of another before the path is cleared? What is the motivation to repay? Guilt? Fear? Love? Respect? Greed? Achievement? I don't mean these in a sarcastic or patronizing way. I agree that we're not the center of the world because we're not separate from it. Not because we should feel as though we're a small fish in a big pond or that we're a big fish in a small pond. -
To expand on this, when we are able to think unconditionally - without any bias of our previous experience, without the bias of future expectations (which are also built upon the past), without bias from our physical make up and dispositions, etc. Then we are able to clearly see what the next step should be, then we are able to be intuitive/creative, then we can experience true freedom. As stated in the thread, we use the goals as a tool. When we've lit the match to start our fire we can throw it into that fire but the match is still useful if we're sitting in the dark shivering. As far as what to think? I really don't know. I've heard some say technical knowledge is ok.. it puts food on the table, etc. but where do you draw the line of what is 'ok' to focus your energy on and what is 'not ok'? ... more division/comparison. Being as I'm not in that state of non-judgment, I really don't know but I don't worry about it either. Very beautifully said, thank you Edit: double post, clicked too fast
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The "Get a Job, Have a Wife, Make a Child , Get a Life" Thread
Unconditioned replied to 宁's topic in General Discussion
Hmm, the idea of coming into being with an inherit debt is definitely a common theme in some forms of Christianity (aka original sin). Perhaps it's a practice unto itself but why would an innocent, untainted being be brought into existence with a debt to settle? Is this similar to the idea of Karma and reincarnation? My personal view is that we are purest at our core when we manifest into this life and the only debts we have are the ones we've created for ourselves. What is there to withdraw from? Where do we withdraw to? -
The best way that I've found (my fiance just moved in a week ago) is just to be honest and fair about your time commitments. Her time is just as valuable to her as yours is to you. If you can find a balance that you both agree on then there won't be any problem. Good luck!
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There are many things that we just do not have the capacity to know. The simple example is that our sensory perceptions are limited therefore so are our conclusions based on them. There's probably an easy way to debunk that logic but the point is that our knowledge is limited. What we 'know' is based on the past. What we experience is tinted by what we remember from the past so generally we do not experience what is really happening, we experience an image of what is based on our previous experience. This collection of limited experiences is then stored in our memory, further changing the color of the tint on the lenses that we see through. So, our knowledge is a collection of experiences based on the prior experiences/information we've collected. It's an endless loop. This all correlates to Ramana's question of "Who am I?". As we investigate further and further, once we reach the Heart, the Root, the Source, etc. the limited self is seen for what it is... we see the truth of it all, the real nakedness of the whole thing. Once that happens, spontaneously we experience directly rather than through our limited knowledge. Can anyone else tell I've been on a J.Krishnamurti lately?
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How about a statue or picture of someone that inspires you? Buddha, Shiva, a pretty woman, a picture of the ocean, etc. The object is less important than the importance you place on it. As far as it being effective, you'd have to find something that can bring you to 'that place' or remind you of 'it' so to speak.
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I have very bad posture... when I meditate I usually have to sit in a chair or sit cross-legged on the sofa with a pillow under me. I've tried to sit on the floor with a pillow under me but the lower part of my spine i curved as if i'm slouching even when I'm trying to keep my back as straight as possible. It is also very painful on my inner thighs/ groin area when trying to sit cross legged on the floor. Does anyone else suffer from poor posture or has 'recovered' from it? I'd like to fix the problem but want to go about it in a gradual/safe way rather than 'forcing' myself to sit in a position that is very painful and/or doing more harm than good. Maybe the answer is just to endure it for a while, not sure though... Put it this way, I can't touch my toes, nor have I ever been able to do this even when i was very athletic. The flip side is that I've never really worked at stretching or trying to improve my posture... until now. I really should've listened to my teachers all those years that gave me a hard time for not sitting up straight!
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I thought this one was dead I think there is a big difference between a teacher student relationship and one person helping another person. Someone that is teaching as a means to make a living has very different needs and perhaps motivation when earning money. However, one person helping another along the way out of love/respect/goodwill/generosity/etc feels more like level ground. I have a close friend that I've known for the last 25 years or so that we have very good discussions and I've learned a great deal from his direction (not his decrees) and watching how he lives. Have I ever paid him a dime? Of course not. Has he ever asked me for a penny? Nope. Have we both gotten something invaluable out of our discussions, absolutely. So maybe the issue is the formality of "I am low and you are great help me up" vs. "What is this 'stuff'? How am I able to know I exist? lets inquire together and see where we get to..." Granted, we may be the blind leading the blind... but that risk is always there even with a teacher/master... accepting their words rather than doing the work yourself. So at a minimum, we can be grateful that we can use this forum to inquire together freely about the nature of our nature.
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I'm always amazed at the content and clarity of your posts. This is pretty much everything that needs to be said on the topic. Thank you!
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Open Letter To Tao Bums About Mak Tin Si
Unconditioned replied to gossamer's topic in General Discussion
This whole thing is such a great lesson. I am personally grateful for all of the posts because it did raise some reactions in me that after observing I didn't realize were even there. Which after further investigation lead me to see some sides of me that I did not before. Whether I agree or disagree with his posts or whether I accept or reject them, they are there. My response, my reaction, is all mine, not his. My conditioned 'self' is the cause, not his posts. Or, to quote some classic hip-hop that has some real wisdom: chiggity-check yourself before you wreck yourself. -
I just wonder where he finds the time! Edit: Also, quantity does not always mean quality. If we look at the masters, they said very much with very little. Do not read into this as a judgement of MTS, it's just an observation. How many ideas are produced does not necessarily mean the contents lend themselves to an open discussion. I can write jibberish all day while an enlightened person can say nothing and be much more effective.