nac

I respectfully disagree. (That is, I don't mind if it benefits all sentient beings in the long run like the Buddha said.)

lol! I wouldn't exactly call myself rich either. Jobless lower middle class Indian or dirt poor compared to the average American would probably be better descriptions. Yeah, me too. And I'm not giving away everything to charity either, unless I decide to join some monastic order... Agreed, although it really has to be of tangible benefit. Unfortunately, humanity has never had a good sense of what things are tangible and how much. Obviously none of this imagery is mine.

What Is Chan? A lecture by Master Sheng-yen (1977) In 1977 Shifu was at the very beginning of his teaching career in America. He was invited to give talks in various places and these were admirably translated. In this talk the crisp vision of Chan that Shifu was bringing from China and from the Japan of his final training is clear for all to see. As we set about creating a Chan suitable for Europe this lecture has a striking and helpful cogency. It was published in a small pamphlet of which probably only a few remain. Tim Paine was rummaging through the library at Maenllwyd when he came across it and spotted its excellence. It was in fact one of the inspirations for John's first visits to the New York Chan Centre. We are glad Tim uncovered it again and we trust our readers will find it equally inspiring. Shifu permits us to reproduce it here. Eds. I wish to start by telling you that Chan is not the same as knowledge, yet knowledge is not completely apart from Chan. Chan is not just religion, yet the achievements of religion can be reached through Chan. Chan is not philosophy, yet philosophy can in no way exceed the scope of Chan. Chan is not science, yet the spirit of emphasising reality and experience is also required in Chan. Therefore, please do not try to explore the content of Chan motivated by mere curiosity, for Chan is not something new brought here [to the USA] by Orientals; Chan is present everywhere, in space without limit and time without end. However before the Buddhism of the East was propagated in the western world, the people of the West never knew of the existence of Chan. The Chan taught by Orientals in the West is not, in fact, the real Chan. It is the method to realise Chan. Chan was first discovered by a prince named Siddhartha Gautama (called Shakyamuni after his enlightenment), who was born in India about 2500 years ago. After he became enlightened and was called a Buddha, he taught us the method to know Chan. This method was transmitted from India to China, and then to Japan. In India it was called dhyana, which is pronounced 'Chan' in Chinese, and 'Zen' in Japanese. Actually, all three are identical. Chan has universal and eternal existence. It has no need of any teacher to transmit it; what is transmitted by teachers is just the method by which one can personally experience this Chan. Some people mistakenly understand Chan to be some kind of mysterious experience; others think that one can attain supernatural powers through the experience of Chan. Of course, the process of practising Chan meditation may cause various kinds of strange occurrences on the level of mental and physical sensation; and also, through the practice of unifying body and mind, one may be able to attain the mental power to control or alter external things. But such phenomena, which are looked upon as mysteries of religion, are not the aim of Chan practice, because they can only satisfy one's curiosity or megalomania, and cannot solve the actual problems of peoples lives. Chan starts from the root of the problem. It does not start with the idea of conquering the external social and material environments, but starts with gaining thorough knowledge of one's own self. The moment you know what your self is, this 'I' that you now take to be yourself will simultaneously disappear. We call this new knowledge of the notion of self 'enlightenment' or 'seeing ones basic nature'. This is the beginning of helping you to thoroughly solve real problems. In the end, you will discover that you the individual, together with the whole of existence, are but one totality which cannot be divided. Because you yourself have imperfections, you therefore feel the environment is imperfect. It is like a mirror with an uneven surface, the images reflected in it are also distorted. Or, it is like the surface of water disturbed by ripples, the moon reflected in it is irregular and unsettled. If the surface of the mirror is clear and smooth, or if the air on the surface of the water is still and the ripples calmed, then the reflection in the mirror and the moon in the water will be clear and exact. Therefore, from the point of view of Chan, the major cause of the pain and misfortune suffered by humanity is not the treacherous environment of the world in which we live, nor the dreadful society of humankind, but the fact that we have never been able to recognise our basic nature. So the method of Chan is not to direct us to evade reality, nor to shut our eyes like the African ostrich when enemies come, and bury our heads in the sand, thinking all problems are solved. Chan is not a self-hypnotising idealism. By the practise of Chan one can eliminate the 'I'; not only the selfish, small 'I', but also the large 'I', which in philosophy is called 'Truth' or 'the Essence'. Only then is there absolute freedom. Thus an accomplished Chan practitioner never feels that any responsibility is a burden, nor does he feel the pressure that the conditions of life exert on people. He only feels that he is perpetually bringing the vitality of life into full activity. This is the expression of absolute freedom. Therefore the life of Chan is inevitably normal and positive, happy and open. The reason for this is that the practise of Chan will continually provide you with a means to excavate your precious mine of wisdom. The deeper the excavation, the higher the wisdom that is attained, until eventually you obtain all the wisdom of the entire universe. At that time, there is not a single thing in all of time and space that is not contained within the scope of your wisdom. At that stage wisdom becomes absolute; and since it is absolute, the term wisdom serves no further purpose. To be sure, at that stage the 'I' that motivated you to pursue such things as fame, wealth and power, or to escape from suffering and danger, has completely disappeared. What is more, even the wisdom which eliminated your 'I' becomes an unnecessary concept to you. Of course, from the viewpoint of sudden enlightenment it is very easy for a Chan practitioner to reach this stage; nevertheless before reaching the gate of sudden enlightenment one must exert a great deal of effort on the journey. Otherwise the methods of Chan would be useless. The Three Stages of Chan Meditation At present [1977], the methods of meditation that I am teaching in the United States are divided into three stages. Stage 1: To Balance the Development of Body and Mind in order to Attain Mental and Physical Health With regard to the body, we stress the demonstration and correction of the postures of walking, standing, sitting and reclining. At the same time we teach various methods of physical exercise for walking, standing, sitting and reclining. They are unique exercise methods combining Indian Hatha Yoga and Chinese Tao-yin, and can bring physical health as well as results in meditation. Thus, one who practises Chan and has obtained good results will definitely have a strong body capable of enduring hardship. For the mind we emphasise the elimination of impatience, suspicion, anxiety, fear and frustration, so as to establish a state of self-confidence, determination, optimism, peace and stability. A good student, after five or ten lessons here, will reach the first stage and be able to obtain results in the above two areas. One of our student's reports stated: "This kind of Chan class is especially good for someone like myself who, by profession or habit, has been used to having the brain functioning just about every minute of the day. I often find this Chan sitting very helpful as rest or relief. So even for no greater purpose, this Chan class has been very useful and should be highly recommended." [from Chan Magazine Vol.1; No.1] In the first lesson of each class, I always ask each of the students individually his or her purpose in learning Chan whether he or she hoped to benefit the body, or sought help for the mind. The answers show that the latter were in the majority. This indicates that people living in American society today, under the strain and pressure of the present environment, suffer excessive tension, and many have lost their mental balance. Some are so severely tense that they have to consult a psychiatrist. Among those who come to learn Chan, I have one woman student, an outstanding lecturer in a well-known university, who asked me at the first meeting if I could help to relieve her from tense and uneasy moods. I told her that for a Chan practitioner this is a very simple matter. After five lessons she felt that Chan was a great blessing to her life. The method of the first stage is very simple. Mainly it requires you to relax all the muscles and nerves of your entire body, and concentrate your attention on the method you have just learned. Because the tension of your muscles and nerves affects the activity of the brain, the key is therefore to reduce the burden on your brain. When your wandering thoughts and illusions decrease, your brain will gradually get a little rest. As its need of blood is reduced, more blood will circulate through the entire body. Meanwhile, because of the relaxation of the brain, all the muscles also relax; thus your blood vessels expand, you feel comfortable all over, your spirit feels fresh and alert, and your mental responses are naturally lighter and more lively. If one's object of study is just to acquire physical and mental balance, and not to study meditation proper, then one will probably feel that the completion of the first stage is enough; but many students are not content with this, and indeed, some from the outset are looking for the goal of the second stage. Stage 2: From the Sense of the Small 'I' The first stage only helps to bring concentration to your confused mind; but when you practise concentration, other scattered thoughts continue to appear in your mind - sometimes many, sometimes a few. The concept of your purpose in practising Chan is for mental and physical benefits. This is a stage where your concept is purely self-centred. There is no mention of philosophical ideals or religious experience. When you reach the second stage, it will enable you to liberate yourself from the narrow view of the 'I'. In the second stage you begin to enter the stage of meditation. When you practise the method of cultivation taught by your teacher, you will enlarge the sphere of the outlook of the small 'I' until it coincides with time and space. The small 'I' merges into the entire universe, forming a unity. When you look inward, the depth is limitless; when you look outward, the breadth is limitless. Since you have joined and become one with universe, the world of your own body and mind no longer exists. What exists is the universe, which is infinite in depth and breadth. You yourself are not only a part of the universe, but also the totality of it. When you achieve this experience in your Chan sitting, you will then understand what is meant in philosophy by principle or basic substance, and also what phenomenal existence is. All phenomena are the floating surface or perceptible layer of basic substance. From the shallow point of view, the phenomena have innumerable distinctions and each has different characteristics; in reality, the differences between the phenomena do not impair the totality of basic substance. For instance, on the planet on which we live, there are countless kinds of animals, plants, minerals, vapours, liquids and solids which incessantly arise, change and perish, constituting the phenomena of the earth. However, seen from another planet, the earth is just one body. When we have the opportunity to free ourselves from the bonds of self or subjective views, to assume the objective standpoint of the whole and observe all phenomena together, we can eliminate opposing and contradictory views. Take a tree as an example. From the standpoint of the individual leaves and branches, they are all distinct from one another, and can also be perceived to rub against one another. However, from the standpoint of the trunk and roots, all parts without exception are of one unified whole. In the course of this second stage, you have realised that you not only have an independent individual existence, but you also have a universal existence together with this limitlessly deep and wide cosmos, and therefore the confrontation between you and the surrounding environment exists no more. Discontent, hatred, love, desire - in other words dispositions of rejecting and grasping disappear naturally, and you sense a feeling of peace and satisfaction. Because you have eliminated the selfish small 'I', you are able to look upon all people and all things as if they were phenomena produced from your own substance, and so you will love all people and all things in the same way you loved and watched over your small 'I'. This is the mind of a great philosopher. Naturally, all great religious figures must have gone through the experiences of this second stage, where they free themselves from the confines of the small 'I', and discover that their own basic substance is none other than the existence of the entire universe, and that there is no difference between themselves and everything in the universe. All phenomena are manifestations of their own nature. They have the duty to love and watch over all things, and also have the right to manage them; just as we have the duty to love our own children and the right to manage the property that belongs to us This is the formation of the relationship between the deity and the multitude of things he created. Such people personify the basic substance of the universe which they experience through meditation, and create the belief in God. They substantiate this idea of a large 'I' the self-love of God and formulate the mission of being a saviour of the world or an emissary of God. They unify all phenomena and look upon them as objects that were created and are to be saved. Consequently, some religious figures think that the basic nature of their souls is the same as that of the deity, and that they are human incarnations of the deity. In this way, they consider themselves to be saviours of the world. Others think that although the basic nature of their souls is not identical to and inseparable from that of the deity, the phenomenon of their incarnation shows that they were sent to this world by God as messengers to promulgate God's intention. Generally, when philosophers or religious figures reach the height of the second stage, they feel that their wisdom is unlimited, their power is infinite, and their lives are eternal. When the scope of the 'I' enlarges, self-confidence accordingly gets stronger, but this stronger self-confidence is in fact merely the unlimited escalation of a sense of superiority and pride. It is therefore termed large 'I', and does not mean that absolute freedom from vexations has been achieved. Stage 3: From the Large 'I' to No 'I' When one reaches the height of the second stage, he realises that the concept of the 'I' does not exist. But he has only abandoned the small 'I' and has not negated the concept of basic substance or the existence of God; you may call it Truth, the one and only God, the Almighty, the Unchanging Principle, or even the Buddha of Buddhism. If you think that it is real, then you are still in the realm of the big 'I' and have not left the sphere of philosophy and religion. I must emphasise that the content of Chan does not appear until the third stage. Chan is unimaginable. It is neither a concept nor a feeling. It is impossible to describe it in any terms abstract or concrete. Though meditation is ordinarily the proper path leading to Chan, once you have arrived at the door of Chan, even the method of meditation is rendered useless. It is like using various means of transportation on a long journey. When you reach the final destination, you find a steep cliff standing right in front of you. It is so high you cannot see its top, and so wide that its side cannot be found. At this time a person who has been to the other side of the cliff comes to tell you that on the other side lies the world of Chan. When you scale it you will enter Chan. And yet, he tells you not to depend on any means of transportation to fly over, bypass, or penetrate through it, because it is infinity itself, and there is no way to scale it. Even an outstanding Chan master able to bring his student to this place will find himself unable to help any more. Although he has been to the other side, he cannot take you there with him, just as a mother's own eating and drinking cannot take the hunger away from the child who refuses to eat or drink. At that time, the only help he can give you is to tell you to discard all your experiences, your knowledge, and all the things and ideas that you think are the most reliable, most magnificent, and most real, even including your hope to get to the world of Chan. It is as if you were entering a sacred building. Before you do so, the guard tells you that you must not carry any weapon, that you must take off all your clothes, and that not only must you be completely naked you also have to leave your body and soul behind. Then you can enter. Because Chan is a world where there is no self, if there is still any attachment at all in your mind, there is no way you can harmonise with Chan. Therefore, Chan is the territory of the wise, and the territory of the brave. Not being wise, one would not believe that after he has abandoned all attachments another world could appear before him. Not being brave, one would find it very hard to discard everything he has accumulated in this life - ideals and knowledge, spiritual and material things. You may ask what benefit we would get after making such great sacrifices to enter the world of Chan. Let me tell you that you cannot enter the world of Chan while this question is still with you. Looking for benefit, either for self or for others, is in the 'I'-oriented stage. The sixth patriarch of the Chan sect in China taught people that the way to enter the enlightenment of the realm of Chan is: "Neither think of good, nor think of evil". That is, you eliminate such opposing views as self and other, inner and outer, being and non-being, large and small, good and bad, vexation and Bodhi, illusion and enlightenment, false and true, or suffering of birth and death and joy of emancipation. Only then can the realm of Chan or enlightenment appear and bring you a new life. This new life you have had all along, and yet you have never discovered it. In the Chan sect we call it your original face before you were born. This is not the small 'I' of body and mind, nor the large 'I' of the world and universe. This is absolute freedom, free from the misery of all vexations and bonds. To enter Chan as described above is not easy. Many people have studied and meditated for decades, and still have never gained entrance to the door of Chan. It will not be difficult, however, when your causes and conditions are mature, or if you happen to have a good Chan master who guides you with full attention. This Master may adopt various attitudes, actions and verbal expressions which may seem ridiculous to you, as indirect means of assisting you to achieve your goal speedily. And when the Master tells you that you have now entered the gate, you will suddenly realise that there is no gate to Chan. Before entering, you cannot see where the gate is, and after entering you find the gate non-existent. Otherwise there will be the distinction between inside and outside, the enlightened and the ignorant; and if there are such distinctions, then it is still not Chan. When you are in the second stage, although you feel that the 'I' does not exist, the basic substance of the universe, or the Supreme Truth, still exists. Although you recognize that all the different phenomena are the extension of this basic substance or Supreme Truth, yet there still exists the opposition of basic substance versus external phenomena. Not until the distinctions of all phenomena disappear, and everything goes back to truth or Heaven, will you have absolute peace and unity. As long as the world of phenomena is still active, you cannot do away with conflict, calamity, suffering and crime. Therefore, although philosophers and religious figures perceive the peace of the original substance, they still have no way to get rid of the confusion of phenomena. One who has entered Chan does not see basic substance and phenomena as two things standing in opposition to each other. They cannot even be illustrated as being the back and palm of a hand. This is because phenomena themselves are basic substance, and apart from phenomena there is no basic substance to be found. The reality of basic substance exists right in the unreality of phenomena, which change ceaselessly and have no constant form. This is the Truth. When you experience that phenomena are unreal, you will then be free from the concept of self and other, right and wrong, and free from the vexations of greed, hatred, worry and pride. You will not need to search for peace and purity, and you will not need to detest evil vexations and impurity. Although you live in the world of phenomenal reality, to you, any environment is a Buddha's Pure Land. To an unenlightened person, you are but an ordinary person. To you, all ordinary people are identical with Buddha. You will feel that your own self-nature is the same as that of all Buddhas, and the self-nature of Buddhas is universal throughout time and space. You will spontaneously apply your wisdom and wealth, giving to all sentient beings everywhere, throughout all time and space. What I have said reveals a small part of the feeling of one who has entered the enlightened realm of Chan, and is also the course which one follows in order to depart from the small 'I' and arrive at the stage of no 'I'. Nevertheless, a newly enlightened person who has just entered the realm of Chan is still at the starting section of the entire passage of Chan. He is like one who has just had his first sip of port. He knows its taste now, but the wine will not remain in his mouth forever. The purpose of Chan is not just to let you take one sip, but to have your entire life merge with and dissolve in the wine, even, to the point that you forget the existence of yourself and the wine. After tasting the first sip of egolessness, how much farther must one travel? What kinds of things remain to be seen? I will tell you when I have the chance! __/\__ Source: http://www.zenforuminternational.org/viewt...p?f=12&t=48

I was hoping you guys would help me fill in the gaps in my understanding. Just as some people here want to live forever, I want to know everything! In my personal opinion, this other half of understanding mentioned by some Taoist sages (life, energy, ...) lies strictly in the domain of scientific inquiry and outside the magisterium of religion, spirituality or even purely philosophical speculation in any form. I think ancient Taoists knew this and hence developed proto-sciences like alchemy, which have been mostly superseded by modern science. Just my opinion.

Yeah, I've heard that before. Something to do with Taoism addressing both "xing" and "ming", right?

PS. Of course, one must not fall into the "all is One" mentality too easily. Don't forget that the Buddha primarily symbolizes the teacher of knowledge and wisdom, not life or energy.

Then my work here is done. Let's talk about what we'd do if we could spend a million dollars! You could argue that depending on one's personality, even having a million dollars in Las Vegas may not necessarily bring you joy if (god forbid) someone close to you had recently passed away. Even if that weren't the case, what could you do with the cash that will assure true satisfaction? Depends entirely on one's frame of mind, I think, which is also changing constantly. Eg. in the state I'm in right now, I might donate most of it to charity, happily, with complete satisfaction and no regrets. If I had business sense, I could have started a business and occasionally donated to charity over a longer period of time, which is probably better for all parties concerned. My brother on the other hand, might not find happiness unless he spent it all in one go on the stuff he likes, etc. Still, there's no telling what we'd think of the our wisdom in our actions ten years from now, eh? Even that depends on a million other factors, not least of which is cultural conditioning and lifestyle. So you have to ask yourself, what is the "true nature" of cash then? A cog in a gigantic, immensely complex machine, useless unless fixed the right way? One half of a yinyang diagram defined by the other half? A drop of dew clinging to an immense spiderweb reflecting all the other dewdrops on it?

Ignorance being the cause of suffering is a definition? Anyway, yes, disagreeing over definitions never solves anything. Let's try to look beyond words at the intended meanings instead. Many of these terms are rough translations from exotic languages after all. Eg. Buddhism refers to quite specific things when it talks about "ending ignorance", "Buddha-nature", etc. This story might clarify the distinction between wisdom and intelligence in Buddhism: http://www.serve.com/cmtan/buddhism/Stories/cucumber.html Mu! PS. Yeah, in the Buddhist view as I understand it, all beings and by extension all phenomena have Buddha-nature.

Yup, it all comes down to one's point of view I think. Whether you're holding a suitcase with a million dollars in it in Las Vegas or a desert island with no means of getting away from it whose natives only trade in beads. The dollars have no intrinsic value in themselves unless the rest of the environment decides to cooperate. The rabbit hole never ends.

I beg to differ. Suffering is the direct result of ignorant actions. That's your own definition. Buddhism looks at ignorance as a temporary obstacle that can be overcome by personal effort no matter what point you start out from. In other words, sentient beings don't have ignorant-nature, but they do stupid things. Any being in the human realm can overcome it by training oneself, hence there are no ignorant beings or enlightened beings. Nevertheless, everyone has Buddha-nature.

Cool. You know what I meant. Nope, only in the Newtonian scale I'm afraid. Ask around if you don't believe me. I never said it applies in the Newtonian scale, but this is how things work at the quantum level. Sure, I believe in impermanence, but I also think the world is caught in some kind of an eternal Catch-22. I think this is best expressed by Terry Pratchett: "Money is not a thing, it is not even a process. It is a kind of shared dream. We dream that a small disc of common metal is worth the price of a substantial meal."

You can't call a person ignorant either, but a sentient being can be the source of actions based on ignorance. In that case, it's the actions that are ignorance-phenomena, not the persons. In other words, not for a moment should ignorance be thought of as the fundamental quality of any sentient being, because we all have Buddha-nature. The quality of teaching everyone around us. This is one logically correct way of looking at the situation, the Buddhist view. There are others. PS. This is the reason why I used to think that Buddhism is the most idealistic religion on the planet, until I encountered Advaita.

How do you know that? Anything's possible, but I honestly doubt that's true. Modern physicists don't believe in conservation of energy as an absolute law anymore. At least, not without a huge mountain of exceptions. Also, there's no such thing as absolute truth and objectiveness in the quantum level. There, the observer and the observed tend to merge into a seamless continuum of the observation phenomenon.

Ignorance-phenomena arise with no need for a concrete Self. There are no enlightened people either, only enlightened actions.

Energy can be spontaneously created and destroyed in minute quantum time periods as long as the energy debt is repaid quickly.

Yes they can!

Sorry. I was using Yang and Yin in their Positive and Negative connotation. As in whether "something" really exists from which everything else originated. Yup, lots of scientists are Neoplatonists. There's nothing wrong with idealism in itself.

Yang. Yin. Double yang. Saying that the Tao, a mysterious, omnipresent entity or substance, does exist and it has existed before all mundane phenomena, pushes Taoism far away from materialism and towards idealism. Of course, Taoism is also completely non-dogmatic. If you want, you can reify the Tao as much as you like. This is probably the reason why the actual beliefs and practices of the different schools of Taoism vary even more than those of Buddhism.

Not enough for me. IMO if there was indeed "something" "existing before Heaven and Earth", whatever that means, how could we say "it" was "formless" and "complete", let alone "reaching everywhere with no danger of being exhausted", etc? Sorry, but this is idealism extravaganza. I'll change my mind if I find that it's somehow a better categorical framework to work in. Besides, idealistic positions like this are often used (by Indians, at least) to make claims like: the universe is conscious, evolution is deterministic, etc... Taoism doesn't say how much "it" should be reified at all, so I suppose it keeps an open mind about all possibilities without giving preference to any of them. This isn't necessarily either a good thing or a bad thing... an indecisive thing? a "don't care" mind? Dunno.

But you see, there is often more than one correct way to analyse any given experimental data. In that case, we apply Occam's Razor and follow the least complicated analysis, until future data invalidates it and forces us to choose another one. Hence clinging to one's favorite interpretation of how things work is never a good idea. It's best to just keep an open mind, no matter how good a certain doctrinal perspective looks. (yeah, I know everyone knows this already; just wanted to explain why I distrust the "mystical" label) Just quoting. I have no experiential understanding of what the Buddha Mind is. As far as I remember, (I'm a little shaky here) Buddha Mind is just this moment according to Japanese teachers. Just sit down, shut up, and see it arising here and now. I don't think Taoism has an opinion on how much "it" should be reified, if at all. As for me, I distrust talking about "it" in the first place, as there's no "it". "It" is an imaginary concept IMHO. I don't belong to the "perfect agnosticism about everything all the time" school.

The Buddha mind isn't something else. To me, Taoism looks almost like the intersection of Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism. That is, the part which both sides fairly agree on. That's the reason both sides claim that it's closer to their own doctrine than the other side's. (an instance of the optimistic half-full glass ) What do you think?

TBH this is not even a factor for me. If they can be sensed, they can be sensed, and that's that. But if they can be sensed, then with sufficient ingenuity, they can also be analysed. If they can be analysed, they're no longer "mystical", but scientific fact. No one has claimed that scientific knowledge is complete. Well that complicates matters, doesn't it? Yeah, badly phrased rhetorical question, sorry.

Either that, or "mystical experiences" simply don't matter to me. Sure. That may be a Tibetan Buddhist view, but I seriously doubt that supramundane substance-related metaphors occur in the (esp. Japanese) Zen view, which strictly focuses on "nothing else". (beyond what is sensed, etc) Of course, how does one go beyond consciousness by ignoring consciousness itself?

I'm talking about the blue haze around Hubble photographs of galaxies being called Chi. If Buddhism teaches the existence of such a "substance", then I'm not a religious Buddhist either. How's that a substance? As far as I know, consciousness is not an eternal base for everything else in Buddhism. Now if you're going to call the laws of physics "substances" too, just because they're "infused" in everything so to speak... (well technically, they're not contained within matter/energy, but only found in interactions between them, but still...) I don't even meditate these days. You can probably tell from my increasing lack of wisdom as the days go by. It began as an experiment to see how depressed I get if I quit meditating. Now I'm trying to build up the motivation to start again.

Sorry, I don't speak English very well, but I can compose it when I'm not in a hurry and addled by cold medicines. I suppose in Zen "virtue" would be intention, skillful action, etc. and non-sentient objects wouldn't have any of this. Do non-living objects have Chi? I don't know, the idea (or view) of any supramundane substance, force or quality suffusing and "creating" (or serving as a substratum for) all matter and energy in the known (& directly measurable) universe seems irredeemably idealistic to me. (especially if it's, eg, providing equal oppurtunities to all) Visit Dawkins' Philosophy and Formal Debate subforums for clarification by philosophy professors and the like... BTW you don't believe the blue haze around galaxies theory that's been going around this forum, right?