Mandrake

True, and is this all - one book? And it's from the bonpo tradition, which appears - at least lately - to not be very hung up on secrecy and protection. Mandrake

ShaktiMama, This is interesting, but do you happen to have any sources on this? Alternatively, where did Glenn Morris get this from? Mandrake

Well, I never said "recommended hedonistic pleasure", and hedonistic may have the wrong connotations perhaps. I have to dig a bit to find the quotes. It was from a dharma talk long time ago and I should have them somewhere. Anyways, in one passage Buddha is speaking to a bodhisattva householder (NOT amonk) - "buy jewellry to your wife" In another passage he elucidates that for laypracticioner who can't devote their lives ONLY to sila samadhi prajna, that there are three good things 1. material acquisitions 2. enjoyment (enjoy things, buy some nice clothes) 3. No debt. From the overall discussion, it's clear that one should not invest all one's mind, and effort into material pleasures (there's a limit to happiness from there), but search for deeper happiness. Enjoy them (sensual happiness), but don't cling or grasp them - with the sense that my whole being, existence, happiness depend on them. As usual, I feel it is very important to emphasize that in Buddhims. not all feelings are afflicted, not all desires are afflicting! Buddhism does not for example aspire for psychopathic equanimity, but for equanimity in whom you have compassion for all beings. Reality based desires - those not imbued with ignorance - are ok. Mandrake PS. I can send the precise quotes when I find them, if you are still interested. Or, if any reader knows them by heart - please notify me. DS.

Yes, to argue for anything else would be very hard. You've basically answered your own question. Research mirror neurons. See above. What if you are privileged to know a part of a gigantic whole? Isn't that fantastic? I would also caution you against falling into a conceptual framework of the world that is self-fulfilling, and that traps you. I've seen this happen, and was sliding into it a couple of years ago, which was horrendous. Luckily a buddhist cultivator helped me out of it. Basically, you can start seeing everything as shit and pain, this tends to make you even more depressed, which you take as confirmation of your original position, which get strengthened further... and on and on the circle goes. If you to this add some type of forceful method where you exert your self in a way that puts a lot of pressure on the mind, you are at greater risk of falling deeper. But all this depends just on your concepts, there's nothing out there that forces you to feel psychological suffering, nothing! If you decide to study buddhism for example, be cautious with the four noble truths, they are so easily misunderstood - especially the first one about suffering. Often they are presented unskilfully. Shakyamuni Buddha spoke lots about joy, lots, and even hedonistic pleasure; but somehow, people miss this important point. So when your girlfriend gives you a hug and you feel "this is real, this is meaningful, this is who I am in this moment, this is love" - that's it! As long as you don't start believing that your happiness, for ever is dependent on this. Enjoy life; beware of becoming too serious. Don't allow your self to get fucked up just because something told you 1+1=3 in an acid trip. Mandrake

CowTao, Thanks for your response. This is my understanding as well from encounters with very experienced cultivators. Good teachings will come to good practicioners. When you're serious, devoted, and have the right intention, all kinds of beings will help out and teach you when you're ready. But to what do I devote money? Champagne and computers; my time - drinking the champagne and playing games, in this I am serious and devoted haha. How many are even willing to sacrifice one year to attain shamatha? In a way, spiritual practices are similar to martial arts: bullshitting does not work in practice. Mandrake

We agree with each other Vaj, and I'm not of the opinion that all roads lead to rome (gosh, you have to take the plane if you want to cross the ocean). Sometimes the internet medium frustrates me no end, and I wonder if I should stay out. A real life discussion would be so much easier and much more rewarding. You know, in the old days, Yeshe Tsogyal and others allegedly conquered others through siddhi-battles; nowadays, it's just "we are better because we say so". And if other masters actually demonstrate powers to their students, the retort is only a verbal brush-away. I guess my issue, if I have an issue, is with the presentation, not very much with the content, and not with the end result. And I also know there are a lot of people within lineages who are aware of claims, ways of presentation not being conducive in today's milieu. I could say more, but I'm not sure if this discussion is of benefit. In the end we need more people out there doing something to clean out the mess, we need compassionate cultivators who meditate for a purpose larger than them selves, and who show it in real action. It's easier to meditate and debate on ttb, than to get our hands dirty with the needs out there (f*ck, I could have worked overtime instead of posting here, and used that money/time where it actually changes lives). If a certain lineage/method helps one with this - fine. In the end it's not words that count. Mandrake

True. But I believe, from my own experience, that there are other paths that offer the same results, that are not included in the yana-system. It is clear that the yana system is a bit like Cinderellas sisters cutting toes to fit in the shoe. DZ/Vajrayana cuts and squeezes the Mahayana systems, with their interpretation (yes, there are many), to fit nicely into the nine-yana or other pedagogical device. Tadaa, you got a structure: It fits, it works and leads to realizations. But, you can as well create entirely different structures. There are many that don't believe in the Tibetan interpretation and understanding of the Mahayana sutras. The problem with the approach taken, is that it creates a magic shimmer, that sways people. I'd much rather prefer these systems to be upfront, and give pragmatic reasons: "we in this lineage, have throughout history found out that doing X, is much better than Y, in this order... these were the damages that got us to reconsider.... these are our methods, they work, and we can back these up" rather than rely too much on arguments of exclusivist nature. Mandrake

noah, what do you mean with "exist", and "unique"? Be precise please. I assure you, I am not a clone that happens to be you. In that case, there would be no separation and you would have unhindered knowledge of my experiences. I guess you can't tell me what I though last week, in what languages? It's perfectly possible to have an acid trip and hallucinate that everything is one, in the same way that it is possible to hallucinate that my room is filled with pink, meat eating, flying beavers. I told you in my first post to start questioning your drug-induced insights seriously, searching ruthlessly for other perspectives and explanations. The capacity for self-deception is great, but we have a choice to continue with it, especially if others have pointed it out for us. Mandrake

quote: "They criticize everything that's not Dzogchen, actually. " But when people turn up that criticize vajrayana/dzogchen, it's like "gasp, that's not possible! Our's the highest! Even though we claim that there are several steps on the ladder, we are topmost and everybody of our bunch says there are no other above or at the same level". All criticism is a priori invalid. Clearly, there are dialectic tricks in these systems that people get trapped in. I've witnessed newcomers to Dzogchen become brainwashed - a quality I never ever regard as positive - and if we are to believe that examination is a virtue, it is time traditions started to encourage inquiry. Mandrake

I think I did. With the word "this" I meant that all great cultivation needs great cultivators, rituals or not. I could have been more clear with it, sorry. It is quite possible for a tantrayana practicioner, to be lazy, as it is for practicioners in other lineages. Thus, it isn't defacto more responsible in my opinion. I am thankful for the main part of your post. Mandrake

You can take very responsible undertakings through other paths as well; and just because one practices Tantrayana doesn't mean that one is responsible. This brushing away of critique is not responsible though; to control the agenda and brush away people who have valid objections against the methods and claims of Tantrayana being proprietary, is certainly not a higher method! Mandrake

Exactly! The stringed together experiences are unique. The ongoing linking of the experiences that you have, will never be the same as mine; the potential and the path are different. One of the things Daoism says, is that everything in this world is undergoing change and transformation; Buddhism says that phenomena can't stay static and permanent, but flow in a process. So these traditions don't say that everything is an illusion (an illusion needs a real counterpart). So instead of this notion of small, permanent and nuclear self/soul/"I" that many people walk around with, you have something much more expanded, something that allows for change, is connected but simultanously unique and highly personal. We have a historical legacy, especially in the west, and thus a new concept of the self is usually a bit shocking to our habits. In some sense, it's all about willingness/resistance to change, but at different levels - from changing work to changing what you want to be your "identity" of the moment - and when change is mastered, you flow and play along with the fluid existence, influencing it your way. Mandrake

noahfor, how much have you questioned your own conclusions? The first cake you bake usually isn't a success. Have you considered that you are stuck in a spiritual delusion, one that it is easy to become trapped in? Delusions are many, and their nature is varied - "If I had more money, I would be more happy", "Nobody loves me", "If we don't take this disc from poin A to B, sun will not rise"[this has actually been practiced/believed!]... etc. Just because your "insights" seem spiritual, they are not necessarily true. Question them ruthlessly, see why it can be different. Acid/drugs can mess around a lot with your energetic pathways, and give phantasms, but it can happen in a bad way - feces getting in your arterial pathways won't produce anything good; likewise, energy that bleeds through to the wrong pathways is also bad. Have you considered that your brainchemistry has been disturbed by the acid? That's not the same as insight. Mandrake

Thanks for taking time to reply Oolong, and for providing some perspective. And if you're guilty of inviting SFJane - many thanks! Mandrake

Superficial or not, nothing was new for me, and if the hermit videos are to be taken seriously, they should be presented from the hermit's viewpoint as well. We don't know anything about him. They couldn't even communicate since the guy didn't know tibetan. And still, getting irritated by mantra chanting: at a late beginner's level this should not be a disturbance anymore. In any case, these videos were for BoL. There are people who rave about retreats - Daniel Ingram is one - provided you know what you are there for, and provided your motivation is correct. I've met people that participated in anything from short term to LT retreats, changing their lives. But their vision and goal with the practice was realistic, determined, and non-escapistic. People on this board should know SFJane: She basically secluded herself and through intensive contemplative practices restructured and healed her internal, very messy world. She was a hermit, but not a tibetan one. Mandrake

Yes my gawd Cat, incredible. More aversion is what the world needs (*praises from the audience*). I'm certain that there must be some charity-founder out there, a so called "good guy", who has some golden showers in his personal closet. I'll go fetch my axe - who wanna join? Mandrake

Umm guys, this happens every day during sexual frolicking, both women and men. If a reader is determined to, my comment can be interpreted as advocacy, with much strain. But to be clear for those with overactive minds: no, I don't. What I find horrendous is moral systems based on purity/unpurity. You can read the Pentateuch, and watch the havoc this kind of mentality has done through the abrahamitic religious and in different cultural systems. It is a primitive morality, tied with a fetisch for penalty, and not at all a moral system based on the suffering of individuals. Talibans see us westerners eat pork, and you can ask them what is the correct treatment of us in their opinion. Finally; the ritual in question involves "five meats", "five nectars", and is symbolic - it is far from the every week Sunday feast; and, I'm not a tibetan buddhist. Mandrake

You think that all the girls who like to swallow are people full of hate, propagating disintegration of fellow humans - is this what you mean? You know that throughout history, people have thought that female sexuality, homosexuality, premarital sex, pork, blood sausages, race mixing, twins, people with disabilites... were disgusting, which resulted in institutionalized killing of these people and those committed to named acts. Mandrake

What is good with the videos? I watched them, and didn't find anything useful. He got irritated by the hermit reciting some mantras! He has arguments that amount to nothing more than blanket statements, without follow up. He doesn't understand the hermit - what are the hermit's thoughts on this guy? There are two sides. Who says this is a good cultivator? Must I watch through the 400 other videos to find out? My intention is not to be sarcastic, I just don't find these videos useful. There's most probably better material out there to through into the discussion. Mandrake

Stevef, Enishi, thanks guys for reporting. Please continue reporting your experiences, I appreciate it very much. If you could write in a week, one month, and tell us about any changes, that would be great! For the help of all! Mandrake

Cat, ultimately, all these will teach you a lot, it won't be time wasted. What's almost most important is to keep the fun in it; if you enjoy the atmosphere in the MMA club, that will keep you attending, practicing and improving. Just don't fancy that you will understand an art from dipping your toes for a couple of months: http://www.taichimaster.com/tai-chi/digging-wells-or-dabbling/#more-1770 In Wing Chun, you'll learn a lot of skills that later on are transferable to Tai qi or Bagua (Bruce trained it at times when he didn't have access to internal arts). Lin Aiwei teaches some energetic aspects of it, maybe you can contact him if you're interested. If you decide to go this path, at least study until you learn the basic chi sao and begin with the biu tze. Then you will have an idea of what is to come. Good luck, keep the fun, remember your goals, and keep on learning. Mandrake

Precisely. Still bringing up UFC, and incredibly enough, the bullshido forum (is this where you spend your time when your not at ttb=?)... what can I say. You don't get it Sloppy, the world is bigger than the US and UFC. That the US don't have much at all when it comes to YC is a loss for the country. You said that your few months(!) in YC was enough for you to see the gaps... well, I won't go there - this is a thread for helping Flynn, and not on discussing your intellect. The rest of your post is dishonest - you try to dismiss your ignorance of fighters with a sleight of hand and try to counter Bosztepe with and ad hominem - and just demonstrates what I said initially. Mandrake

Sloppy, I call bullshit on this and the later part of your post. If you insist on bringing UFC, and the so called wing chun practicioner that championed, you may as well tell about the ridiculous challenges that the Gracie's claimed real practicioners backed out of. You can continue telling about the counter challenge that Emin Bosztepe posed back to all the tops in the Gracie organization, which they chickened out of. It is lame enough to bring up UFC as a yardstick in the first place, but why do you speak so confidently about Wing Chung with only a couple of months under your belt? You don't even seem to know any famous fighters in the school. It should be obvious, but the world is larger than UFC and the US, and in terms of martial arts, North America is quite a wasteland; recognized fighters couldn't care less. Mandrake

Interesting, thanks! What did Plato think of it, especially, how did he think it compared to the other stuff he has done? Mandrake