Kundaolinyi

This may show my own personal limitations in where I'm at, or perhaps spark debate on matter of opinion, but I arrived at a surprising question today in practice, and I'd like to see what the community's thoughts on the matter are. To introduce the topic, I'll quickly propose two of my own personal philosophical decisions of which my inquiry stems from. One (of 2 here) of my relevant philosophies -on qi, chakras, vitues and power- The qi system, as in general, in my opinion, relates most strongly in the dantian to Swadisthana Chakra, and thus to open up to the heart past Manipura Chakra, conditions of Swadisthan Chakra (conditions of the qi system) must be prepared for the opening. Manipura, being a chakra in which the idea of "Power" must be pondered, the solution to the preponderance is found on the path of Virtue. Virtue is the psychosomatic chain to the health of the body, and the health of the body connects to the depths of oneself through the Qi system.... Simply put, Virtue is a necessary component of "Power", and the concept of "Power" is a necessary component of Virtue's discovery. Virtue controls "Power", and "Power" propels Virtue, this path opens up the heart beyond the desire for "Power" for the sake of "Power". At the same time as heightening one's spirit to the heart and beyond, one strengthens the physical body, and the Qi, via Virtue and Power. -Thus, I find that Virtue is important, very simple in the end if I sum it up like that, elementary. In caveman talk, Virtue = Good, I want to have it, lol. The second (of two here) of my relevant philosophies -on pondering concepts- Answering a philosophical question to me is to successfully ponder a 'conceptual virtue'. These philosophical decisions make up who we become in life. I ask, in a philosophical question -"What is the 'highest' of virtues for the sake of my psychosomatic health, my interaction with the world, my spiritual development, etc?" This is the root control point for our higher level reasoning, the development of personal philosophy. In everything we do in life, we have a personal philosophy as our reasoning. "I am this way, so I do this way." This is why I ponder Virtue, because its development is akin to one's sense of self, personal philosophy, and psychosomatic health to the body. The question of this thread- The question that came to me the other day was that of intention, in the moment, or in life. The question I propose in this thread, retaining in mind the above two paragraphs being its source, is- Between the 'intention to heal' and the 'intention to teach', which is the higher or more Virtuous intent? Or is it a matter of opinion? Or perhaps they are equal and can be categorized simply as ideas pertaining to an 'element', as if simply another Hexagram of the I Ching to be dealt with? What are your thoughts on Teaching and healing (as a life path, or just an intention in the moment) ? Save in mind that teaching to heal is a possible intention to use, and perhaps healing someone's knowledge maybe. I'm a little fuzzy past that point. I simply have not finalized my thoughts on the matter. What do 'thedaobumbs' have to say on this all?

Okay, I admit, maybe I can sound close minded. I think you do too though. Can you really not see how comments like "maybe you'll come around in time" come off as if you're 'teaching down' at me? As if I'm in ignorance, and you need to enlighten me... -That's where my defensiveness is coming from. I totally don't want to 'jocky for superiority', I'm hoping we can somehow get passed that. The fact that you're saying now, that "it wasn't my intention to come off as adversarial or condescending" makes me think we have a chance at comunicating. Let's move on. "someone is cured of a terminal condition, and your attitude is, "yeah, but their balance is still off. how can that be considered healed?"" ...but you said they've been cancer free for 5 years! The cancer is gone, work on something else.

I've labeled, 1-5, specific points, so to stay organized. My responses will be labeled accordingly. 1. I'm happy to have a real conversation with you too. I'm not specifically close minded on the topic, I just have had no reason to change my opinion on it as of yet. I too, could easily accuse you of being close minded as well. Neither of us have shown any willingness to budge, so calling each other out for not having an open mind is pointless, we are both pots and kettles, and we are both black. I get it, that you think you're not close minded because you feel like you've 'been there done that' with my perspective, I think you are mistaken. We should just enjoy the diversity in our perspectives, and hope that we both learn something from discussion. 2. I've given a brief overview of some of my philosophy on the basics, and you say you've learned the same way. Excellent. I'm not sure why you have taken my abbreviated dissertation on the basics as an indication of the extent of my skill level though. I keep saying 'foundational basics', I said nothing about my advanced practices, or where I'm at now. I appreciate that you're taking the position that you've been where I am, and have moved on. I understand how this works, because I too have taken this position with others on different topics. I am not yet convinced that this is actually the case with us though, I'll address this more in point number 3. 3. This is where your idea of what I'm doing, where I'm at, what my level of understanding etc. has become a strawman. I'm not saying you did this intentionally, but you're clearly addressing a skill level and knowledge base, here, that is not representative of me, my skills, and my perspective. That makes the position you're taking, as the wiser more experience practitioner, seem questionable. I'm not struggling for dominance here, I just want to keep those attitudes you've brought in out of the discussion. I keep repeating my mantra of 'foundational basics', and you keep talking as if everything I've ever learned has been written here. I have to admit, this irks me a bit, but I can stay patient and hope we both walk away more knowledgeable. 4. "i've watched dozens of patients put their cancer into remission of the past... 5 years, let's say. many of them still have bad balance" Then they're not fully healed. The cancer is gone, but the bad balance isn't. Is that hard to understand? Some things were healed, some were not. Simple. It's an amazing feat, but it's not a complete heal, factually speaking. Once you have the youth of a child and no ailments, you are healed COMPLETELY. Curing cancer is great, I love it, but you're talking like it's the end of the road. The end of the road = back to the basics, this is what I'm saying. 5. Good for you! I too consider myself to be a student of principles, rather than systems. I still see no reason to think that my principal, that the basics are the beginning AND the end, is wrong, even after reading what you have written. I certainly don't limit myself to Chinese Gong Fu either, I'm not sure why you would imply such a thing. Too much strawman again, probably unintentional. I'm not accusing you of cheating an argument, communication just doesn't seem to be working between us. 6. That's not a paradime shift, it's fine once you're in a state of auto-regulation to allow the body to do on its own without micro-management. The cancer patients with bad balance you spoke of are not there, don't be silly. What we have here is a philosophical difference. You seem to be convinced it is a matter of progression, I am convinced that it is a matter of personal prioritization. For me, once you have progressed all the way, you can then joyfully embrace the basics. It's a circle. So, I might be mistaken here, but to me it sounds like you've turned your focus to more difficult things to heal, like cancer, but you have done so by lowering your standard for what you consider to be a final outcome, ie- just 'not having cancer' is good enough for you. If true, that's fine, but it's not my way. I'll admit, my expertise comes from confronting my own Chiari Malformation that I was born with (type 0 or 1), also considered incurable from the western medical community. I don't have documentation to prove my progress, but I'm about 90-95% symptom free. Maybe that makes me a low level kid to you, not sure, but I admit, I haven't healed cancer as of yet. Never had it, never treated someone with it. Have you actually cured cancer? Or was that a bunch of talk? It's okay, you don't have to be the big great master to have an opinion. Just say what's on your mind, it's all good.

Thank you for all the replies. It seems like there is an agreement amongst the majority, that the old 'give a fish or teach someone to fish' is an important philisophical application of both healing and teaching. I can't help but disagree with the notion that there is no such thing as a 'higher intention' though. The idea of categorizing intentions as higher or lower in one's mind will ultimately direct one's actions. "I consider this to be more important than that, so I do this more often than I do that." We often make these decisions without conscious intent. Consciously categorizing intentions not only requires higher level reasoning, but it also forms the basis for what we consider higher level reasoning to be. A more drastic example would be "should I practice MMA and beat people up, or should I practice Taiji and cultivate health, peace, longevity, and unity with my fellow man?" I'm not interested in judging, so I'll consider it a matter of personal philosophy, rather than fact, but to me the pursuit of Taiji is typically based on what I consider to be higher level reasoning, whereas pursuing MMA fighting is what I would consider to be ego-driven desire, or lower level reasoning. To the mma fighter, it may be a virtuous path, because that fighter's reasoning could be as simple as "I want to win, get money, and women." To me, that's lower level reasoning, but it is still personal prioritization. A personal choice, perhaps, but an important one. To me, there is a higher and a lower, even if it is by opinion alone. Those who just go with the flow with no intention, in my opinion, aren't actually doing that. They're just not conscious of the psychology at work. I don't see anything wrong with being self aware, and making conscious decisions about subconscious processes. So for the question at hand, if I have two career path choices, between healing and teaching, or some combination of the two, I want to take the 'most virtuous path', which to me is the 'highest' or 'best' path. Whatever adjective is used to describe the motivation behind the choice, I certainly want to make sure mine is more 'advanced', 'higher', or whatever than "get money and bitches", I think we all do. ...and between healing and teaching, there may be subtle differences, and perhaps I might find one or the other to be more Virtuous.

This is the kind of thing I can't entirely get on with. Why would the final product of a healing technique be a mangled form that'll just harm you again? If you have a bad relationship with gravity, then you haven't healed all the way. If you can't even stand up straight, how can you be considered healed? It's ridiculous (sorry, no offense, this is just my thinking). I guess I learned about healing differently. Step 1 cleanse, step 2 flush, step 3 energize. Step 1 and 2 wont reach everywhere if things aren't aligned, Step 3 will harm you if the energy is knock'n about making tense spots and whatnot. It's not just about 'judging' a teacher, it's very important to healing. Basics are everything.

Although I agree that teachers become more heavily scrutinized as they gain success, I'm not sure if I can agree that spreading out is a bad thing. You have to remember that meditation, martial arts, etc.. has been taught by direct transmission for all of history, which is why those teaching methods work. Globalization of material through books and DVDs is new, so it's no surprise that this kind of teaching doesn't work very well... yet. Yet. Who's to say it wont in the future? I look ahead, and I see Virtual Reality devices like the Oculus Rift, and holographic devices like Microsoft's holoLense, and I can't help but think that this kind of mass teaching of eastern material is in its infancy, and can only grow. Fifty years from now, or a hundred, people probably will no longer say "you can't learn this without direct transmission from a teacher." Author's like Mantak Chia have taken brave steps to teach the world through books and DVDs. A lot of people just want to cash in on a booming business too, it's true. You can't deny that Chia has made some money along the way as well. I don't think that's the fault of the medium though, it's the fault of the state of our capitalist society, and the kind of characters it develops. The future could be really terrible, and technology could ruin everything natural, raping the DAO... or it could be a really cool time for dedicated individuals who cannot otherwise afford to travel the world looking for the right teacher. Good teachers still have to take those steps now, and risk the bad in it, to develop the way to reach more people effectively. Even within the context of books and DVDs only, there's still a lot that can be done to improve communicating eastern concepts to westerners. There's also a lot of work to be done in developing a better way for people who don't live in a temple. Beyond that, new mediums will become available. The old ways aren't actually that good, they're just the only thing anyone has come up with that works SO FAR. In actuality, direct transmission to a few students is pretty pathetic. It's inefficient. Teachers need to keep working towards future, and shouldn't avoid it just because modernization doesn't work well YET. It's a very exciting time, in the grander scheme of things. It's just slow moving enough that not everyone sees the potential yet.

As the one who revived this topic in the interest of defending Mantak Chia, I feel like such a fool for insulting Michael Winn, provoking others to defend him like I did for Mantak Chia. It's so easy to criticize. Although I prefer Mantak Chia's work, for myself, I don't doubt that someone could get something out of Winn's work. As for my Criticism of Michael Winn's postural mechanics, I should not have. There are many areas of expertise to have, there are many skills to develop, and one person's focus will differ from another person's. I have found, in my own practice, that opening the posture in accordance with Daoist principals grounds my spiritual development by being the outlet for it directly into the physical body, as nature intended. Because I value this very basic principle so dearly, I have clearly developed a bias for those who also do. It was wrong of me to be elitist about it though. I don't want to get into the Atlantis thing, therefor I'll just say that I don't know anything about Atlantis and am not pursuing research into this area at this time. For this reason, I'll refrain from criticizing Michael Winn, or anyone else on this topic.

This is an old topic, however, I came across it while searching something else and I couldn't help but want to add a reply for anyone else who comes across it like me. To begin with, I'm not sure why, but it seems like it's almost human nature to expect that teachers/gurus etc are supposed to be god level in vitue. A divorce, an imperfect system, as many failed students as there are successes... These things clearly PROVE that Mantak Chia is human. But why do we expect that his marriage, his life, his knowledge, his students, him, to be perfect? Find me the perfect teacher, one without fault, and then come back and judge Mantak Chia. The truth is, Mantak Chia is a man, with strengths and weaknesses. He learned and shared Taoist practices as he learned them to the best of his ability. He developed his school, his business, his books, his mariage, and his students to the best of his ability.. and because he is not a perfect god, somehow that makes all of everything he teaches worthless? Anyway, I've studied Mantak Chia's work for over a decade now. I've found too that his system is NOT easy to progress in. I've had to modify it, mix it, and combine it with multiple other sources of knowlege to even begin getting a handle on it. Some of the most core and powerful principles I adhear to are derrived from Mantak Chia's system though, and quite simply put, the only reason he has such a high student failure rate is because his system isn't easy. The difficulty level is too high for most people, possibly Michael Winn included. Micahael Winn's posture mechanics are proof that he just doesn't get a lot of it, and his ungrounded thought processes are the result of this failure. Fanciful spiritual dreams, unable to be grounded in the fat phsycial body with terrible postural mechanics that he just can't seem to master. Simply put, a lot of people don't do well with it because it's difficult, and people find it unsafe because it's powerful. The mistake I most often see made with Universe Tao or ANY system with a spiritual component is in the relationship between the phsyical side and the spiritual side. You see people imagining great and wonderful things, feeling their chi etc, all the while their physical bodies are completely out of balance. People tend to use relaxation as a crutch. Sure you can have good chi flow if you go completely limp, but why is your neck and upper back so scrunched and compressed? Relaxation is one of the results of proper developement, not the source of it. There is a difference between relaxed power and just going limp. The bagua is the ultimate balancing tool. In Chia's system, it's used to balance the organs on an emotional level, but it's VITALLY important that the phsyical alignment of the organs be balanced in movement and mechanics by the bagua too. It's all wonderful if you can see and feel and balance your chi when you're limp, but being able to manifest changes into your phsyical body in accordance with those spiritual principles is what opening the conception vessel is all about. Jing->Chi->Shen. We all know this concept. But it's only 1/2 of the practice. If you only do this half, you only ascend the governing vessel. The spiritual power developed by this transmutation must be harnessed and directed back down, so that Shen moves the Chi, and the Chi moves the physical body to change form. Without harnessing the Shen to transform the phsyical body to be more compatible with the spiritual concepts it employs, what results are fanciful and useless spiritual developement that has no connection to what we call the real world. Feel good Hippy stuff is all good, but it's no good if it leads only to ungrounded fantasy. I remember in Iron Shirt Chi Kung I, Chia mentions that westerners have a hard time straigthening their neck's. Go look at pictures of Michael Winn. He's not even close to Mantak Chia's level. And it's not because Mantak Chia is a bad teacher. It's not even because Michael Winn is a bad student. It's because what Chia teaches is REALLY difficult to learn and teach, even for himself. He is a man, teaching the spiritual wisdom and bio-technology beyond that of men. He is no more unqualified to teach than we are unqualified to learn. But we study anyway, and he teaches anyway. What I've come up with is different than Chia's system, but it is still based on the core principles Chia teaches. Everyone must do this. Everyone must make what they learn their own. Chia did this too, as will any of you who wish to progress. There is no perfect system, but the one we create ourselves, for ourselves. It's just how it is. Deal with it.

I'm probably not going to make any more friends with what I'm about to say, than the amount I'm going to make by bumping up an old thread (sorry) ... but.. This topic, and a lot of the responses, goes to show a HUGE problem with the state of qigong schools out there right now. Everyone gets so caught up with feeling and dealing with all these metaphysical energies without grounding their skills into their physical bodies. Except for the most talented people, there isn't much point in trying to manipulate this 'magical qi stuff' until you've actually bothered to gain proficiency with some of the more basic physical energies like the 'ground reaction force', 'tendon torque', and the 'pressure from the breath'. Anyone who's spent enough time figuring out how to drive the internal pressure of the breath (I'm talking about pounds per square inches here) downward, knows that the organs get in the way. So what do you do? You use the pressure of your breath and posture to align the organs (which are suspended in their fascia sheath) so that the breath's pressure goes BETWEEN them, which when done correctly PHYSICALLY OPENS THE DANTIAN. Postural mechanics are a must here. With the organs shifted, and Dantian (space between the organs) open and pressurized, the passage of the body's weight travels to the ground effectively, and the resulting impact forces is received back into the body. At this point, the tendons (including the diaphragm's) can be torqued, with the resulting tension being channeled into the internal energy system, rather than creating tense spots in the body. This is how the 'tendon changing classics' bother with tendons to begin with. All the forms, semen retention, and hitting with reeds, will only do so much without actually grounding your progress with physical skill. The Dantian, and all of the meridians physically exist. Well, that's not entirely accurate. They're not like a vein or a nerve. They're like a hole or crevasse BETWEEN THE PHYSICAL TISSUES IN THE BODY. When the Dantian is pressurized by the breath, they adjust as a whole system like an array of ballasts. Okay, so the point here is that the forms in qigong all open, close, pressurize, or depressurize the meridians (like ballasts) in specific ways that have a physical effect on which organs are open or shut off to the dantian, and in what ratio. The forms effect the body's internal dynamic from the outside-in. Each organ has a specific 'element' assigned to it, which determines quality of physical energy cultivated, chemical-emotional effect, and its psychosomatic relationship with the mind. Each form has an effect on these things, but only to a small degree if the person hasn't developed skill in this system. None of this requires getting into any metaphysical mumbo stuff. You don't need to sit there and ponder "does x exist or not", as if it were a philosophical dilemma. If you don't know what you're doing, then it's no surprise that you wouldn't be sure. Your points here are well thought out, but lack some understanding. The English Language IS a mental construct, but the brain has specific physical structures that handle language, and those structures exist with or without learning the language. You are confusing Taomeow's analogy by equating English to the meridians and dantians, when actually, English is the qigong forms. The Dantians and meridians are more like the language center of the brain, which exists whether you use it or not. Taomeow's post was spot on to begin with.

I'm not entirely a convinced evolutionist, but just to offer an opposing argument- Fizzards... You mean a creature that both lives in water and on land, and that has both legs and fins? We call those anphibians, not fizzards, silly.

Often times the heart chakra is visualized as the color green. In Taoist alchemy, the heart itself is associated with the element of 'fire', which is the color red. To make matters even more confusing, take alchemic adjustments into considerations. What are the 'chakras' like pre-taois-alchemic-adjustment? And what are they like post-taoist-alchemic adjustment? Does reversing Kan and Li effect the chakras, for example? Recently I came across a Kuji'in system that recognizes 9 chakras, one of which is located at the Jade pillow area, between the throat and third eye chakras. I've also been exposed to chakra systems that describe chakras as centers of consiousness, rather than energy. (whatever that means) I have to admit, there are times where my intuition is so strong that I feel like I'm being directly fed pure truth from God or Aliens ..or something. Then there are other times when I think all this stuff is a bunch of bullshit and I should just stick to physical anatomical qigong/neigong. At any rate, if experiencing universal love and compassion is really the final chakra stage, then I've been there done that many times over. You'd think there would be more to it than that. Especially considering how easy it is to experience such a thing with Chia's Fusion practices.

5 Elements. When viewed in the form of trigrams, each element is either 2 parts yin and 1 part yang, or 2 parts yang and 1 part yin. The exception to this is the 'earth' element which is 3 parts yin. Irrefutably, when adding up each of 'bars' in the 5 trigrams, you will never come up with yin# = yang#. No mater what combination of 5 trigrams you try, you will either have more yin than yang bars, or more yang than yin bars. This is simple math. 5 elemental systems, therefore, are mathematically unbalanced. In a system that attempts to balance yin and yang, why are 5 element systems used? The very notion of 'creation' and 'destruction' cycles implies life and death. To die you must be alive. To be alive you must die. Neither of these things have anything to do with immortality. There is no birth nor death in immortality. Only being that always was. So then, if one were to seek immortality, would it not make sense to OVERCOME the obvious 5 elemental form that we can all acknowledge as real? The very idea of 'being cut off from heaven' applies to the 5 element system. Earth is always thrown in the mix, but where is heaven? Heaven is sitting off to the side with the other 'universal forces' on the pakua watching the creation and destruction cycle. Sure, I hate to draw a hexagram instead of a pentagram, seeing how the Rothschild minion's Zionists have claimed a monopoly on it, but something seems to be off. It occurred to me one night while thinking about the 'appendix', and why it is such an atrophied organ. Often times, the large intestine is considered the 'yang organ' corresponding to the 'metal' element, while at the same time, it corresponds with 'heaven' (3 yang bars). It would seem to me that our atrophied appendix was most likely once connected to the 'sixth element' in the once immortal cycle, before we were 'cut off from heaven' and put in the 'creation/destruction cycle'. But hey, far be it from me to use theory like that to explain why 5 elemental practice most likely encourages mortality, just look at the math. Maybe I have something wrong on this one, but I think 5 elements cannot and will not ever equal balance. If balance is what we seek, and immortality is the result of balance, then 5 elemental alchemy is something to be acknowledged as a reality, but not as an original truth. any thoughts? (edited for spelling)

I would love to become a breatharian just to be able to quit pooping. Lol, I really despise pooping. I have to admit, there have been many times that I felt no need to engage in eating, but I usually ate because I thought that I was supposed to. I'm certain that I would have ended up hungry eventually though, but in some cases it seemed like I accidentally stumbled into getting a 'taste' of what it's like to be a breatharian. These random times when I really don't think I need to eat often occure when I'm having some success with connecting my internal system in my body to the external universe, rather than just focusing on my body/mind/spirit/qi alone. Not always the case though. In any case, the distance between me and becoming a true breatharian is long enough that I had better pack a lunch

^This is what I've been thinking for years. It seems as if there is such a thing as 'free will', but it is not what most people think it is. Free will, as it turns out, is actually just another factor in the equasion, a variable in the cycles of change. Many people have argued with me saying things like 'you always have a choice'. I generally felt like they must be wrong, because I've been on both sides of the argument, and they've only been on one side. Still though, seeing how people are often 'held responsible for their actions', I cannot help but seek out my own 'free will'. I don't like being held responsible for things that are out of my control, but to be honest, I really don't think that their definition of 'free will' is anything more than a false sense of power and conrtol. This too, I agree with.

The Tao is mine! No one can possess or distribute it but me! Ah... in an ideal world there would not be any money, fame, or recognition to fight over, nor the desire for such things. I suppose I wouldn't want to be plagerized either, nor would I want to be falsley accused of plagerism. I dunno who dun wut. I mostly just care that I have access to knowledge, even though I don't want to purchase it from the wrong source, if there is such a thing.

Post it a few more times until people listen. just kidding

I've been wondering in the last few years if us humans will be perpetuated into the 'final design' if there is such a thing... or if we have reached our peak, like the dinosaurs. Maybe we will survive the coming disasters 'like we always have', or maybe this time we really have reached our end. Perhaps it's time for a new species to arise and take our place. Insects, reptiles, mamals... what newer softer form will appear after our time is over? Perhaps it is only our arrogance, to think as if we are the final design and will inevitably survive somehow. It isn't us, as humans that need to survive, it is life itself. The human design is only the latest form that colonies of cells have been taking. We tend to forget the will of our cells, decendant of single cells, and only remember the will of the colony itself, our will, the ego. Just as we become slaves to our worldly systems around, our cells have become slaves to us. Life will continue, but our form may not. I suspect that the best way to ensure survival is be like the first ape that walked upright and took notice of his surroundings. Particiapate in your own evolution, whether you can only take a few steps, or if you can evolve millions of years worth in one lifetime. I believe that it is this intent that will manifest survival actions. Any lesser itent will manifest self destruction, your cells do not want to survive for the sole purpose of searving you as their master. They wont allow it, and the Tao wont allow it. You live today to take care of them. You are the advanced civilization that they built over billions of years. The leaders of our current civilization have been poisoning us, and enslaving us for their will and the will of the civilization itself. Perhaps if we take better care of our cells, Kharma will insure that our civilization will take better care of us. As for Natural disasters, I can't imagine that stockpiling food would be enough to save us from the worst of them. Rather than focusing on whether we'll survive or not, we could just focus on whether we should or not. I think most people who are seeking the Tao and and seeking the will of the Tao are on the right path. At least I hope so. I think it's very simple. Just keep 2 things in mind, the 2 'moralities'. The first morality is self morality, meaning not doing harm to yourself via sex, drugs, alchohol, crappy food etc. The second morality is ethical morality, meaning not doing harm to others and interfering with their own self morality. If you are doing your best to master these two moralities, then you are doing your best to grow and evolve with the Tao. The Tao is the tool, the labor, and the result. All the meditation, the exercises, the diets, the moral codes... they all are meant to grow us in accordance with those two moralities. It is the will of our cells, the will of life, the will of the Tao that we evolve in accordance with these moralities. Still, the guy who said that when the shyt hits the fan, all the philisophical mumbo jumbo will go flying out the window... he's probably right. lol While we're on the topic. THis video gave me the chills- http://www.glumbert.com/media/asteroidsim

Wait, after someone who obviously didn't read my post thoroughly attempts to 'call me out', you highlight the most attackable portion of my response to him/her and then form a vague campaign against my character, knowledge, and credentials? Can we please just stick to the subject of the thread and try our best not to get into this bull? Really, let's not risk getting caught in a loop of 'I'm more humble than you, so I have the right to shame you for your lack of humility... oh wait, that's not humble of me to think that though'. We should all know by now that the number one pitfall in ego-mastery is getting arrogant about your ego-mastery. Maybe we should just skip all the ego v/s ego competition for who has the least ego, and get on with the actual subject matter. I'm really not interested in Taoist politics. Bottom line, putting aside all flowery philosophical mumbo jumbo, claims of lineage or sources, and straight up dogma... no one has proven my math to be incorrect, nor have they shown any reason that my math is irrelevant. Some people have responded with their view on the 5 elements which I'm grateful for, although I still find that my math seems correct, and thus I'm sticking with my current theory. 5 elemental trigrams = 6 part yin, 9 part yang = yin and yang are not balanced creation and destruction cycle = reincarnation and death cycle = mortality escaping the cycle of death and reincarnation = escaping the creation and destruction cycle = immortality many systems are teaching to embrace the creation / destruction cycle = wtf?

LOL, I know there are 8 trigrams in the bagua. 5 of them are considered the 5 elements in the creation/destruction cycle that is comonly taught. -Which is what we are talking about here. I'll make it easy for you, I'll even post a pic so you don't have to get confused and continue to make arguments using facts that don't in the slightest bit contradict anything I said. Pentagram on Bagua (5 elements) Count up how how many broken bars and unbroken bars there are amongst the 5 elements. The entire bagua as a whole has 12 broken bars and 12 unbroken bars, which is balanced mathamatically. The 5 elements have 9 broken bars and 6 unbroken bars, which is not mathamatically balanced. My math appears to be fine. "How would you know that the eight trigrams or the five phases ('elements') are not the original truth? " The truth of the matter is, if I'm right about this, then I'm right about this... no matter 'how I know', and no matter what you believe. Same for if I'm wrong about it. I never said I know it anyway. And even if I'm wrong about this, I'm right to question it. Please try and understand the content of the thread before you attempt to call someone out next time. I almost feel ungraceful responding to your comment, because it's hard to believe anyone here would actually do the 'troll' thing, and yet it seems so unlikely someone here would respond like this by sheer ignorance. Really, did you even read the first post?

Ya, do tell

I can't really say that there are any immortality 'techniques', but rather, some of us hope that diligent practice over many years may yield some results. It may take 1000 years to achieve immortality. It may take 500 years to learn what it takes to live 1000 years. It may take 250 years to learn what it takes to live 500 years. ...etc... One step at a time, but don't confuse the steps with stand-lone 'techniques'. Still, some like to pull/tug/massage their balls. I suppose that's a technique, but it only has meaning within the context of the internal system, semen retention and alchemy. More specifically than 'techniques' to promote youth and immortality, lets look at some things that promote death, and how to resolve them. Food- No matter how 'clean' you think the food you eat is, gross consumption will kill you eventually. The process is just too ridiculously filthy to the body's systems, produces too much waste (not just poo), and is just plain, well gross. Solution?- Well, I have heard of 'breatharians' who can absorb energy from the sun, moon, stars etc.. and no longer need to eat. Eating the 'cleanest' foods you can handle (clean meaning closest to pure qi, without breaking down too much) is a start. Then learning to absorb other sources of energy too. Eventually, however, it will probably be necessary to be more efficient with the energy you do have already, and not require new sources. What else will kill a person? Stress- Stress, tension, shocks to the body from inefficient gravity absobsion when moving, emotional stress. Wear and tear! These things require that your body constantly keep up with healing itself, which requires energy, which you get a lot of from the food you eat, (which we already covered). Solution?- Learning to move effortlessly, qigong, neigong... These practices will greatly decrease the amount of wear and tear on your body, stress on the mind and heart, and in turn makes you more energy efficient. Efficient enough to become a 'breatharian'? Well, not with just a few 'techniques'. Banging your chick/guy- OH yeah, I went there Sex, amongst other energy leak points is often considered to be a drain on your original qi. So they say, once that's gone, so are you. Solution?- Good luck trying to replace your original qi with breathing and food. That'll kill you eventually as it is anyway. You'd be better off learning to not loose that stuff to begin with. Quitting sex/masturbation may not be possible or wise until you learn to 'transmute' sexual energies. This requires a lot of education and practice. Rubbing your ballsack doesn't count unless you have the qigong/neigong of it! Sorry, I'm guess I'm not sure what you're looking for. In any case, I'm not immortal (yet?) and too young to claim longevity. And to be honest, I haven't fully learned any of the above content. So, we'll see.

Welcome! but yeah, I agree^

I've never heard of the Dantien being 'created' before... but I suppose I would liken it to a coin purse. A coin purse must be opened before it can be filled, and if it isn't opened and filled, it usually lies flat as if there were no space in it at all.

I have to admit, it seems like it's always vague answers to a question like the one from the original poster, no matter where you go. I guess I can do my best to describe some of the 'internal work' I've been practicing, although I'm not sure if it is technically 'nei gong'. To start with, one of the most important practices for any gong is learning 'internal movement'. Internal movement, as I practice, has to do with movements of the body that do no require measurable external movement. Such movements on the more obvious level are things like- 1. Opening and folding a joint, so that the tendons slip between it. An obvious example would be the hips and shoulders, which are capable of exaggerated opening. Less obvious- 2. Subtle movements of physical structures within the fascia. An example of this would be in the case of packing/wrapping the organs with Iron Shirt packing breathing. In this case, internal pressure PSI from the lungs presses downward (rather than expanding the rib cage). The pressure must be accommodated for, and thus the organs and fascia slide into position so that the pressure (PSI) can join with the same path of least resistance designed for the weight of the body, and then connects with the ground reaction force. The pressure from the lungs is very similar to the weight of the body, in terms of energy type, and thus they share the same path to the ground. Even more subtle movements, yet, can be achieved, even movement of the brain structures, but that requires chain reaction, because the brain doesn't have direct movers. Internal movement is a chain reaction process, in which the entire body moves together. Like gears, if you move one part of the body internally, the rest of the 'gears' must move with it. The internal movement should ultimately align the body for maximal structural advantage, and energy transfer (like the PSI from the lungs and gravity). Eventually, parts of the body that cannot normally be moved at will, (like the brain), can be moved by principal of the body's 'gears' and energy transfer. Example- 1. If a 'externally trained person' spreads his fingers quite aggressively, the tension will collect at a joint. Once the joints are opened up, however, the tension can be transferred through the entire limbs. Using this tension, and postural mechanics, the tension can then be transferred to open the bones of the skull, and even to align the structures of the brain according to the natural alignment desired. Of course, there are many sources of energy aside from just muscle tension, but even muscle tension can be used to aid internal mechanics. Why would someone want to move and align the skull and brain? For starters, it's really difficult to feel or see inside the body, and know what's going on when utilizing internal movement. Aligning the brain in specific ways makes certain nerve connections more viable. Every time you learn something, new nerve connections and patterns are created and made habitual with practice. When a person wants to achieve something like 'seeing inside the body', this same principal is used. The nerves in the body gradually become more sensitive to internal movement, and the practitioner moves in accordance with this process. Body mechanics then becomes not only about muscular efficiency, but also efficiency for specific nerve patterns. But to go from seeing inside the body from feeling? More complicated nerve patterns are required, and thus greater alignment of the physical structures surrounding the upper dantien are required as well. New nerve connections that link the sense of 'feel' part of the brain to the 'visualization' part of the brain are established, as well as linking the 'visualization' part of the brain with the 'visual' part of the brain. Once a greater perception of the inner body is established, greater internal movement can also be established, and more subtle energies can be worked with. The principals of alchemy are important as well, which guide internal movement, nervous system output, chemical/hormone transmutation into brain chemistry, and other such physical processes. These physical processes also interact with the non-physical. Qi can be thought of as potential matter, and matter as potential qi. Matter itself is an illusion. Each organ in the body has it's own vibrational frequency that can be categorized into 'elements'. The total sum of these vibrational frequencies should always equal neutral, once alchemy has organized each frequency in their respective places -( to put things stupidly simple). The total sum, the neutral frequency should = what you have running through you're meridians. Qi. Of course, internal movement, sensitivity, transmutation, balance... etc... These things all work together and build off each other, and in turn also each require more of each other to perpetuate. In the end, even internal end external exchange at the upper dantien, just like the two sides exchange at the lower, and top to bottom exchange at the mid. After that, there is no separation between qigong and neigong, internal and external practice. A guy can pick up a barbell and lift weights, a seemingly external exercise, but using pure internal mechanics and energy principals. Damn, that was long, and I covered so little I did my best to put it in wester terms, but I just don't know how to fully explain the process of alchemy, especially not in a short post like this. ..Nor can I explain the subtle process of brain mechanics, and connecting brain mechanics to the body mechanics, and brain alchemy with the body alchemy. The entire thing is qigongs connecting to qigons, and neigons connecting to neigongs. I didn't even start about the eyes and brain, Heaven/Earth Spirit/Flesh. Sheesh.