liminal_luke

CT, I don´t know the exact percentage of violence that´s committed with religious justification, but it seems to me there is a lot of that going around. Hasidic Jews throwing rocks at sabbath-defaming Saturday morning car-drivers in Mea Sharim, an ultra-orthodox neighborhood in Jerusalem. Christians burning crosses in black people´s front yards. (Not so much these days, but historically.) Moslems wearing suicide vests and thinking of heavenly virgins. These are just references I´ve picked up from popular culture and casual reading. I haven´t done extensive research, and I´m sure a great deal of violent perpetrators don´t feel the need to pick up a Bible or any other such text. Just the same though, I´m confident that lots of violent people use religious belief to justify their violent acts and encourage violence in others. You disagree?

I only got through the first few pages of The Fountainhead, so I wouldn´t really know, though this explanation seems as good as any other. In case I sound like a spiteful free-speech killing politically-correct dolt, let me just say that I don´t think Karl is hateful. He´s just a champion of hater rights.

You needn´t worry on my account Aetherous. If I´ve attempted to silence Karl, I´ve failed miserably.

Like Ralis and Old River, I believe there´s value in piping up when folks post hate-filled drivel. See something, say something. There´s value in fighting back when they whine about how they are oppressed they are at the hands of nasty free-speech impeding progressives. But at a certain point, when the conversation isn´t going anywhere and isn´t going to, I start looking around for something else to do. Sometimes people enjoy getting others worked up (however justifiably) and the best thing to do, at least for me, is to stop playing. (Not sure if this is what you meant Karen, but it´s the way I took your post. Time to get back to work.)

MLK is absolutely right in saying we can´t legislate away hated. But we also can´t legislate away the right of good people to object to hatred. Just because someone has a right to hate doesn´t mean everybody should just be quiet about it. Quite the contrary. Our moral, if not legal, obligation is to raise our voices high.

I´m reminded of that Buddhist story about the monk who carried a woman across the river. The monk´s companion asked how he could of carried a woman like that: wasn´t that putting himself into lustful temptation? The first monk replied that he had already put the woman down while his friend was still carrying her. It´s a little like that with yin and yang. They are useful concepts on one side of the river, but once we cross to the other side it´s time to put them down. Taoist cosmology, as I understand it, stretches from the relative to the absolute ... and there are practices and viewpoints that correspond to the various levels. Wuji -- TaiChi (yin/yang) -- five elements -- ten thousand things. (Bums more versed in these things-- please correct if I¨m mistaken.) If one is headed on a fast-train for towards the non-conceptual -- as in certain Buddhist/Bon practices-- dualistic concepts (and yin/yang is the very essence of dualism) may not apply.

Hi Edward, My partner is on olanzapine as well as an SSRI antidepressant. It´s took a lot for both of us to get to the point where we were willing to take a chance on these kinds of drugs. The first psychiatrist he ever went to prescribed haldol. I looked it up on the internet, and read about tardive dyskinesia, a neurological side effect that causes people to protrude their tongue and make other embarrassing and uncontrollable movements. It usually, but not always, goes away if you discontinue the drug. Well, that was enough for me to question whether haldol was the way to go. He took one dose, had a horrible nightmare, and that was it for haldol and that psych doc. He seems to tolerate the olanzapine much better. It doesn´t eliminate his paranoid thoughts but it gets him to the point where they don´t totally disable him. So I´m grateful. But even with this one, I read about the side effects and hope he doesn´t have to take it for the rest of his life.

This. It´s been interesting to me to note that those in this thread who assert their "right" to discriminate against others are very quick to take offense and play the victim when challenged.

I´m no Daoist scholar, but my understanding is that this is the classical view. You can´t really say that anything is yin or yang in an absolute sense. It´s always yin or yang in relation to something else. Our sun, for instance, is generally regarded as yang, and rightly so. But in the context of some supernova exploding out in deep space it might be yin.

Neither. Just the memory of a rather extensive (and not much fun) debate with you sometime back about this very same "point" in which nobody convinced anybody of anything. If I thought things might go differently this time around I might give it a shot, but I don´t.

Thanks Dustybeijing. You asked for some links and here they are: the results of my quick websearch on the environmental fallout of vegetarianism. I haven´t researched these (and am not really up for a scientific tit-for-tat) but I think this preliminary list suggests that the issue is far from resolved. http://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1250532/Being-vegetarian-does-harm-environment-eating-meat.html http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/ordering-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-your-hands http://www.yesmagazine.org/issues/can-animals-save-us/joel-salatin-how-to-eat-meat-and-respect-it-too http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-environment-meat-study-lettuce-three-times-worse-emissions-bacon-a6773671.html http://huntergatherer.com/prominent-vegan-advocate-22i-was-wrong-about-veganism-22/ The people who I respect, by the way, are not the factory farmers. And not the people eating factory-farmed meat either. I don´t dispute that this kind of farming is bad for our health, bad for our environment, and unbelievably cruel to the animals. But as farmers like Joel Salatin point out, that´s not the only way to raise meat. Just so you know. I found it interesting that you feel judged by meat-eaters because I feel judged by vegetarians. While it´s true that most people eat meat, those same people believe (erroenously, in my opinion) that vegetarian diets are healthier. I hope you don´t think I´m judgemental. If you´re diet is working for you and you feel good about it, more power to you. Yes, I´m a little closed-off to information that I perceive as pro- vegetarianism. Maybe I should lighten up? It´s just that most of the vegetarians who have tried to influence me about this issue (in person -- not you) have just oozed hate. Or at least that was my perception. Happy eating (however you do it), Liminal

Although we disagree about so much, Karl, I´ll take you at your word that you wouldn´t discriminate. You seem more principled than hateful, to me. Not principles I´d espouse, mind you, but principles just the same. I wouldn´t even call you small-minded. A cyber rabble-rouser? Hey, if the shoe fits...

I´ve been called worse. But only by small-minded people.

Free speech is great because you can just ignore views you disagree with, unless of course we´re talking about Ralis objecting to discrimination and hatred -- in which case it´s controlling and arrogant? Of course you´re right that the mods have the last say. But if we´re going to allow small-minded people to spout off about their prejudices, shouldn´t we also allow big-minded people to call them out about it?

Transgender or no, part of becoming spiritually mature, in my opinion, is coming to peace with our dual yin-yang, male-female nature. Even the manliest men have feminine sides (and vice versa), and getting familiar with the whole kitchen-kaboodle of our human qualities is part of the process.

Thanks for this, BES. I was hoping someone would post a personal perspective -- just what this thread needed. People treat the whole transgender thing as some kind of political fight they need to pick sides in. But all around me all I see are people, some very different from myself, that ask nothing more from me than to let them be. Extra credit for feeling gratitude and appreciation for each and every glorious, blessed person, place, and thing.

I´m not working with them anymore, but the Kan & Li practices I learned from Michael Winn used the distinction between yin and yang energies. Basically we collected different yin and yang energies (from our bodies, the immediate environment, the planets, the stars, etc -- depending on the level you´re working at) and used them to fuel the alchemical process. Normally fire (yang) rises and water (yin) descends. So invert the process placing the yang fiery energies below the yin watery energies (collected together in a nice cauldron) and you get a nice neutral energy -- steam or yuan chi. That´s a very abbreviated capsule version as I remember it.

I don´t know what causes a person to be transgender. Is it best considered a mental illness, a physical illness, or not an illness at all and just part of the glorious variation of life? Beats me. All I know is that these are real people whose suffering is real. And it´s not my place to make that suffering a million times worse because of my own discomfort. Whatever the etiology of trangenderism, it´s not my place to sit in judgement. One of my best friends has cerebral palsy. One of his hands curls in so he can´t open his palm. It´s hard, of course, not having two working hands, but the hardest part for him is worrying about what other people think of him -- the hardest part is not being "accepted" as a person with cerebral palsy. And that´s a damn shame. Nobody should feel like less of a human being because their hands don´t look like everybody else´s. In the same way, nobody should be made to feel like less of a person because they are transgender. We´re all just doing the best we can here in life, and if someone born with male genitals wants to put on a dress and makeup and call herself Nancy than that´s nobody´s business but her own.

With the possible exception of me? I, for one, am not feeling the love.

Bodhicitta, Have I got you all wrong? Surgery may not be the answer, in general or in a specific case, but for the most part those who advocate for it as a treatment possibility are well-meaning. Or at least that´s my assumption. To call their advocacy a "progressive hobby" sounds dismissive. They are people who, for the most part, care about transgender people and want the best for them. So this is my perception. The way you worded your opening post as well as the article you link to strikes me as disrespectful and demeaning. But when I point that out, you say I am making presumptions and misunderstand you. Perhaps so. Let me ask you, then, how you feel and what you think to clear up any possible misunderstanding on my part. Would you be supportive if you had a transgender child, or found out you had a transgender sibling? Would you support that person if they choose to dress and act like they gender they identified with? What if they used the public restroom of the gender they identified as? Would you welcome a transgender person in your workplace? As a friend? Do you experience yourself as someone who is open, kind, and compassionate with transgender people? If so, those qualities didn´t come through to me from your initial writing. My apologies if I misread you. Liminal

Whether transgenderism is best treated with counseling, hormones, surgery, or some combination thereof may be the point of the article, but it´s not the point of my posts. My point is this: these people are real; their problems are real; they deserve our respect. Referring to transgender people as indulging in the "latest progressive hobby" is not respectful. Period. Nobody decides to get gender reassignment surgery because they are a liberal hobbyist. They just don´t. Whether or not transgender people benefit more from talk therapy or surgery isn´t the issue. The issue is kindness.

I apppreciate your post Edward. Anybody considering these kind of drugs should do so with full "informed consent," aware of all the drawbacks and dangers as well as the potential benefits. Hearing about the experiences of other people who´ve taken these medications is important. Thanks for sharing. (Oops, I see you´ve deleted your posts. I get why you might be concerned: that someone might read what you have to say and not get treatment they need. And yes, it would be a mistake for somebody to make a treatment decision based solely on your experience. Then again, it´s often a mistake to make a treatment decision based solely on the advice of a psychiatrist as well.)

I don´t want to stifle conversation. Like Dustybeijing, I just hope it comes from a respectful compassionate place. The OP referred to transgender concerns as "the latest progressive hobby." We can do better.

We can argue all day about the nature of transgender identity but here´s the thing: articles like the one above fuel misunderstanding, contempt, even hatred, towards people whose experience of gender is outside the norm. Just look at the way this thread is titled: transgender problem. Reminds me of the "Jewish problem" in nazi Germany. It´s not that there´s no room for academic debate around transgenderism. Just that I hope people approach the issue with understanding and compassion -- indeed, with Bodhicitta -- for the very real people touched by the issue. Liminal

In case anyone´s interested, here´s the first chapter of The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith. http://www.lierrekeith.com/book-ex_the-vegetarian-myth.php It doesn´t go in-depth into all the arguments -- it´s just a first chapter-- but perhaps it´s enough to give people who are interested a taste of what she has to say. Of course, it´s been debunked by vegetarians on-line. And their debunking has been double-debunked by the meat-eating camp. There´s no end to this, unfortunately. But for those interested in exploring the idea that vegetarianism isn´t all pistacios and peaches, here´s a start.