liminal_luke

I can´t speak to the historical record, but in modern times many a priest has violated his vow of celibacy with (other) adult gay males. Liminal

Julie Henderson, zapchen pioneer, singles out napping as an important practice in its own right. She encourages napping after other zapchen techniques (sighing, yawning, rocking, etc) to help integrate the effects. Liminal

DreamBliss, I may have, admittedly, come off as a bit of a hard-ass with my last posting, but it seems to me you got quite a few good suggestions from others. You don´t think so? So why so heart-broken? Please don´t let my rant stop you from getting the spiritual nourishment you´re looking for. Perhaps the Beatles are apropo here: "You can´t always get what you want, but if you try sometime you just might find...you get what you need." Liminal

Skydog, Just to let you know, I really haven´t given any thought to whether you´re arrogant or not. I just saw something in your post that struck me and I wanted to riff on it. In general, I think we human beings have a tendency to attribute bad qualities to people who we imagine have advantages we don´t. So it can feel good, if I´m not rich and famous, to imagine that people who are that way are arrogant or what have you. A person might say, for instance, "hey I may not be Brad Pitt but at least I´m not an asshole." Not that you, in particular, are saying any such thing. Just that people in general tend that way. As a middle-aged gay introvert, I think straight party-loving twentysomething muscle boys are arrogant. Really though, it´s just sour grapes. Liminal

Arrogance cuts across social class and station in life. It might seem particularly loathesome when displayed by rich and famous people of a certain age, but is equally prevalent among broke, no-name teens. Liminal

Not kosher. Liminal

Good point. I´d venture that for many the spiritual journey passes through a voluntary-poverty-teach-for-nothing cul de sac before hitting the I-charge-cause-I´m-bloody-well-worth-it highway. Teachers who have worked through their money issues don´t struggle with finances precisely because they charge what they need to for their time and people pay it. Liminal (I feel the need to soften this a little. For the record, I wish things were cheaper too. And if someone wants to offer something for free or at low cost I think that´s as valid a choice as any other. So I´ll leave my original post as it stands but imagine it taken down a notch or two. Basically I just want to say that I don´t buy the oft-expressed sentiment that spiritual teachings shouldn´t cost money.)

Vamping on the energies of straight male spiritual seekers by pretending to be a nymphet on a taoist internet forum? I didn´t know that was even possible. As a gay man, I don´t spend much time thinking about heterosexual gender dynamics but wow--I guess being a woman is more complicated than I imagined. So. If I´m a female bum and a male "likes" my posts, compliments my writings, and does the little heart icon thingy with me, does he (1) respect me as a human being and fellow taobum, or (2) secretly want to get in my pants? In the situation Tibetan Ice describes where a male responds this way to an alledged female only to have his confidence "shattered" when he discovers the deception...in that situation whose the vamp? I vote "both." Liminal

Oh, I know what you mean about the work. Not my idea of a retreat either. That said, I suspect whoever coined the phrase "there´s no free lunch" was probably pricing spiritual getaways in the Oregon/ Washington area. Five days minimum for a maximum of $200 is gonna be hard to pull off. If you just want to be left alone to do your own thing, rather than receiving instruction, I´d check out religious centers. I forgot the name of the place, but I spent some time once at an, I think Catholic, place out in the country in a beautiful setting where silient contemplation was encouraged. No obligation to profess any particular faith or participate in services, etc. The primo retreat center in Oregon to my mind is Breitenbush Hot Springs. Beautiful place (but only so-so food) and lots of interesting offerings. Most of the workshops last only three days or so and cost more than you want to pay. You could cut down your cost and up your length of stay by not taking a formal workshop and just hanging out on your own. It´s rustic to be sure, but beautiful and the natural hot springs are super relaxing. Liminal

There´s great richness in the Jewish tradition--spiritually, culturally, culinarily. I spent several years exploring it as my main spiritual path. In an odd way, this exploration led me to chi gung. In the late 1980´s I enrolled in a Jewish meditation class taught by an orthodox hasidically-leaning anthropologist in Jerusalem. He taught me to feel an energy ball between my hands, and also the inner smile meditation (as a variant of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov´s inner scream). Best wishes as you explore. Liminal

When I was in counseling school I asked a professor of mine if it was possible to be a good therapist and a really messed up person at the same time. She answered yes (but she didn´t recommend it.) I think this is true for spiritual teachers too. Some great spiritual teachers are messed up in way or another for the simple reason that, in addition to being masters of their art, they are people. In fact, I´d say pretty much all of my teachers have had qualities I wouldn´t want to emulate. Doesn´t mean I regret my time with them one bit. Liminal

Seriously though. This is the answer I´d give. Just practice Bagua (or standing, inner smile, tai chi, kunlun, spring forest, etc). How many of us have really taken any of these as far as they will go? Not that I follow my own advice. There was recently a thread here in which people mentioned a practice given by Max to some and not others--Red Dragon--and I felt I just had to have it. Well, you know, the truth is I didn´t really have to have it. It´s not like I don´t have enough right now to develop myself plenty. If I fail in my cultivation goals it won´t be because I haven´t received the right practices; it will be because I haven´t devoted myself diligently with the practices I already have. It´s so easy to get trapped in a kind of practice anxiety. To nurture a scarcity mindset. Wallow in fear of not getting enough (teachings, money, love). Julie Henderson, the teacher of a great set of practices called Zapchen, says... "Anything is possible; Nothing is necessary.". Liminal

Horus and God, Wow, thank you so much! This is very illuminating. Liminal

God...what is the meaning for me of my current relationship? In particular, is there a value in my having stayed through this difficult period or is it meant for me to just do what seems best for me and let the cards fall where they may? Thanks, Liminal

I really like this, and sense that this singular intention is the way to go, that it would get me where I want to go most efficiently. No fooling around. But, but, but.....when I actually go to do my practice I find myself not doing this and wonder why not. One of my practices these days is Primordial Chi Gung as taught by Michael Winn. At the deepest level, it´s designed to do just what Balance is talking about. Or I can pick some smaller piece of the puzzle and focus on that as my intention. The weird thing is that if you asked me I´d say I believe in going BIG, dissolving into the deepest part of my being. And yet in the moment I find it hard to go there. Something to ponder. Liminal

Sunchild, My dad committed suicide. Before he did it he threatened to do it, and I knew he was going through a hard time. I could of reached out to him, but we never got along so well, I was mad at him, and I didn´t. I know it´s not my fault, but I´ll always wonder "what if." If I had told him I loved him then would it have made a difference. So now, when people talk about hurting themselves, I speak up. I remind people we can´t know the future. Things that might look hopeless now might not another day. I can´t really influence you much one way or another but this is an internet forum and I can do what people do on internet forums: say my piece. People continue to respond to you because we feel a connection as fellow human beings. Generally speaking, we want to help each other. When someone has a need people naturally want to step in and help. A lot can get in the way of that helping impulse. Sometimes things get all twisted and the help offered doesn´t end up being very helpful. Sometimes people want to help so badly that when their help seems to get rejected they feel powerless and hurt. Still, as human beings we want to connect. And you know what, I think you do too. You say you don´t care, and I´m sure you mean it, yet here you are. You are still reaching out. You´re bothering to feel offended if someone says something you don´t like. That says something. It says you care. You haven´t given up one hundred percent. Come join the rest of us in this imperfect messy world where people treat each other well and poorly and usually both. You belong here so get on the bus. Liminal

Yeah, this is the impression you get from watching movies and absorbing pop culture, but actually it´s a lot of bunk. I won´t say nobody enjoys their twenties. I´m sure some do. Still, statistically speaking, it´s one tough decade. And everybody running around acting like it´s the best time of life--or should be--doesn´t help much. I don´t yet know from personal experience but some wise friends have let me in on a secret. You know what´s the best decade? The sixties. Beyond that is pretty damn awesome too as long as health holds out. I think it has something to do with all those old ladies wearing purple and generally not giving a damn. Good for the soul. If you´re in your twenties and suffering, join the club. A lot of us have been there. Then hold on ´cause it only gets better. Liminal

Sunchild, Please don´t hurt yourself. It doesn´t really matter what anybody says on here right now. Life always changes. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow....but it changes. You´ve just got to hold on so that when it changes for the better you´ll be around. Luke

When my partner was in the height of his depression he eschewed the whole idea of enjoying life. The idea that happiness is for shallow fools is common among those with chronic mood difficulties. I don´t think happiness--or even fun--is antithetical to spiritual development. You can be enlightened and still have a blast in life. In fact, I´d say spiritual development expands a seekers ability to feel good exponentially. Gurus have a good time, they just do it without a "self." Liminal

Very interesting. I took a craniosacral workshop years ago and have always had it in the back of my mind as something I need to get into but never really have. What is it, do you think, about standing that improves sensitivity for craniosacral work? Is this something you´ve found from your own experience? Thanks, Liminal

Sunchild, Please don´t give up. There´s help available to you. If something doesn´t work, try something else. I believe you can feel better. Liminal

Hi Satya, You´re looking into this so intensively I thought I´d write a follow up to my earlier thoughts, give my take on how different spiritual practices might bear on mental health issues. First off, I agree that mental health is physical health. Depression, for instance, causes physical changes in brain tissue (a point discussed in the book Against Depression by, I think, Peter Levine). At also leads, in many cases, to other diseases that are undeniably physical in nature such as heart disease. So it´s an error, in my opinion, to draw too solid a line between physical and mental health. For this reason, I think that anything that can improve physical health can also improve mental health. There are numerous scientific studies documenting the utility of chi gung for various ailments. I imagine it would work as well for mental issues as for arthritis, etc. Ideally, a person wouldn´t just do any chi gung but follow specific practices prescribed by a doctor of chinese medicine, or some such knowledgable person, so that the practices target the specific problem. Mental problems are diagnosable by chinese medicine. For instance an irritable person might have "liver wind rising." It´s not so simple as saying I´m anxious or depressed and therefore this is going on for me from a TCM point of view. The diagnosis is more nuanced than that and would need to be made by someone who really knows how to read a pulse and hone in on what´s happening in a certain instance. Once a person has such a diagnosis it´s easier to design a therapeutic chi gung program. In chinese medicine each of the five elements is associated with a particular organ system and particular emotions. For instance, the "kidneys" belong to the element water and when the water system of the body is out of whack it can result in fear. The different elements influence each other in complicated ways so it´s not always so simple as saying "I´m afraid so I´ll work on my water element." It might make more sense to work on the metal element that nourishes water, for instance. Anyway, someone who does this kind of healing work could identify which elemental systems need support and prescribe certain movements, meditations, and life style adjustments suited to a particular case. Ok, moving on. Spritual practices can benefit mental health by encouraging "mindfullness." This is especially true of buddhist types of meditation. On a superficial level, training concentration to focus on say the breath, for instance, allows people to distract themselves. And the ability to be distracted is no small thing. Imagine the benefit of peacefully focusing on respiration when the mind is going around in circles in a negative way. Practices like vipassana additionally lead to a sense of "spaciousness." A person might have the same negative thoughts but there is the sense that the thoughts are emerging within a bigger space. The drop of poison that could kill someone when dropped into a juice glass isn´t going to seem like such a big deal when dropped in the ocean. In a more general way, spiritual practices can help a person relax and destress. And addressing stress goes a long way towards helping any health issue. I´m thinking of something like a class in restorative yoga here. Then there´s the social aspect if the practice takes place in a class format or with a teacher. You could probably join a knitting circle and get the same benefit, but if interests run toward the spiritual it´s hard to beat the interpersonal benefit of belonging to a supportive community of fellow seekers. Liminal

Don´t confuse deteriorating mental health with spiritual progress. (Or vice versa.) The spiritual path is certainly not all roses and puppies, but if your life is getting steadily worse rather than better I´d seek treatment. Liminal

Hi Satya, I think it´s important to take mental health seriously. That means being open to using all available tools as necessary to help yourself live a happy, productive life. Drugs have many drawbacks, for sure, but when they´re needed, they´re needed. My partner´s depression and anxiety have (finally!) started to subside thanks to pharmaceuticals that are working when nothing else would. Could he have gotten similar results from a rigorous exercise and spiritual practice regimen? Yes, I think so. Then again, who has the motivation for such things when emotionally down? Medication can be a stopgap to get people stabilized to the point where other more holistic interventions start to seem more doable. The term "spiritual practice" covers a huge range of activities so I don´t think you´ll find a one-size-fits-all answer to how cultivation might fit into a mental health wellness program. One person might be sitting in a zendo for hours looking at a wall, while another spars in a martial arts dojo. Both arguably spiritual pursuits. If we´re talking general chi gong though, I think it´s safe to say that the practice improves health. This is roughly a two step process: clearing out all the yucky stuck chi, and bringing in fresh chi. Some practices are more oriented toward detox, some towards building vitality. Basically I´d say try whatever you´re drawn to and keep doing whatever works. Liminal

This line might not speak directly to your overall point, but I loved it and think it´s true. Liminal