liminal_luke

I prefer to attend events where my own group is represented, but I think there's something to be said for developing the capacity to be comfortable being the odd one out. A few years back I took my mom, in her sixties, to a trendy Cuban restaurant in Portland for dessert. She asked afterwards if I was embarrassed? Turns out she was the only one her age there. I hadn't noticed. Told her I wouldn't care if everyone else was 16. This place had the best chocolate cake in town and no way was I going to let the age of the other patrons keep us from sampling it. Another time a friend and I (early fifties, late forties)were reminiscing about how we loved the gymnastics classes of our youth, and bemoaning the fact that there were no tumbling for adults courses. Later, she remembered reading about a gymnastics class for adults in nearby Vancouver and we resolved to go. Well...turns out that when gymnasts talk about "adults" they really mean 12-22. No matter. They called their insurance carrier to make sure they'd be covered if we broke our necks, and we were in. I'm not gonna lie: it was a little weird doing cartwheels with a bunch of 15 year olds. The next day my foot was all out of whack, and I said never again. Still, I'm glad I went. I am a human being, and I will go where other human beings go--even if I'm the only one in the group like me.

Hi 4absolute, Just want to chime in and say that hasn't been my experience. All of the classes and workshops I've taken (in the US) have had a good mix of ages. Certainly there's lots of young people here--just look at any of the threads on retention. edit: I've been interested in spirituality all my life. Well, maybe not all but certainly way, way back. Of course I wasn't taking tai chi classes at the age of 12 because it didn't occur to my parents to encourage me that way. And I'm not sure they were even available in my small town back then. I didn't have the money or mature mindset to go traveling around taking workshops. Even so, I can see the seed of what I do now developing in me even then. Think it's that way for most of us.

Xor, You are correct that most beef is fed grains. Conventionally raised livestock is arguably no better than the conventionally raised corn they are fed. Point taken. But then again that's precisely why I don't advocate eating conventionally raised beef. Fortunately, there's a healthy and environmentally sound alternative: grass-fed beef. See my post #30.

From lierrekeith.com on her book "The Vegetarian Myth." "I want a full accounting, an accounting that goes way beyond what’s dead on your plate. I’m asking about everything that died in the process, everything that was killed to get that food onto your plate. That’s the more radical question, and it’s the only question that will produce the truth. How many rivers were dammed and drained, how many prairies plowed and forests pulled down, how much topsoil turned to dust and blown into ghosts? I want to know about all the species—not just the individuals, but the entire species—the chinook, the bison, the grasshopper sparrows, the grey wolves. And I want more than just the number of dead and gone. I want them back. Despite what you’ve been told, and despite the earnestness of the tellers, eating soybeans isn’t going to bring them back. Ninety-eight percent of the American prairie is gone, turned into a monocrop of annual grains. Plough cropping in Canada has destroyed 99 percent of the original humus. In fact, the disappearance of topsoil “rivals global warming as an environmental threat.” When the rainforest falls to beef, progressives are outraged, aware, ready to boycott. But our attachment to the vegetarian myth leaves us uneasy, silent, and ultimately immobilized when the culprit is wheat and the victim is the prairie. We embraced as an article of faith that vegetarianism was the way to salvation, for us, for the planet. How could it be destroying either?" No doubt it's not a perfect book. It can, and should be, critiqued. Fine. She might well be wrong about gut bacteria but it's hard to argue with her overarching point about agriculture. The way we've been going about growing vegetables and grains has hurt the earth, and living beings--even as she says, whole species--have died.

I'd like to suggest a compassionate compromise to those squicked out by conventionally-raised meat. (And really, who wouldn't be?) Seek out, and pay extra for, humanely raised grassfed meat, and ecologically sound seafood. Yes, such animals do die so that you can eat them. There's no getting around that. But it's not like living creatures didn't perish so you could eat your carrot salad either. True, a plate of veggies doesn't provoke a gag reflex among vegans the way a bloody steak might--but murder, if ya wanna use that word, is murder. What you get with grassfed meat from ethically-minded ranchers is food that's good for you, good for the animals, and good for the world.

Do we need to be in a relationship with someone following a spiritual path in order to progress spiritually, and grow as a person? I think not. Relationships are magical alchemical cauldrons whose inner workings almost always outstrip our conscious understanding. Fortunately, we don't need to understand to benefit. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to the physiological intricasies of respiration-- yet I still manage to breathe. Being in a relationship is like that. It works even when we don't get how. The cool thing is that we tend to get the partner we need. If we need a partner who thinks more or less like us, and follows a spiritual path, then that's what we'll get. If we'd benefit more from negotiating through the inevitable conflict that comes from seemingly differently life paths...well, the universe is happy to provide that experience as well.

Everything in my life is part of my path. I'm sure I could evolve just fine spiritually being single, but boy does my relationship give me a kick in the pants. Liminal

I don't read the cards myself but am interested in learning how. A good friend whose read for years passed on some advice that he'd gotten from his teacher: pick a card every morning for that day. That way you can hold the card in your consciousness through the day and get a feeling for how what happens relates to it. Haven't done this but it sounded like a great learning tool, and thought I'd pass it on. Liminal

I don't have any answers to your questions, but wanted to salute you for asking them just the same. This kind of thing doesn't get talked about much here, and I think it takes courage to bring it up. Liminal

I thought I had something of value to say so I spoke up. Sorry to hear you disagree. If Dhiggs wishes to hear only from taoist priests and their students he is free to ignore my posting and,well, no harm no foul. Ok, please forgive my momentary ranting. Back, I hope, to the subject at hand. Liminal

Hi Dhiggs, It's natural enough, I suppose, to seek advice and feedback from others. Taobums is full of experienced and opinionated practitioneers of various paths so you are sure to hear many different views. I'd like to suggest though that you are the best and final judge of whether what you are thinking and doing makes sense for you. Clearly you are a thinking, self-aware person. Perhaps part of your emerging Manhood, as you put it, will be having greater confidence in your own wise counsel? If I might suggest a simple process. Ask yourself where you'd like to go, what you'd like to achomplish in life. Then think about the next small steps you will need to take to get yourself headed in that direction. Try some things out as an experiment, and keep track of how it goes. After a period evaluate the results of what you're doing and see if it's indeed working for you, or if you need to make modifications or go off on another path altogether. In this way you'll soon become an expert on your own process. You'll feel comfortable in your own skin, self-assured. Your path may not fit somebody else's idea of what's "taoist," or even logical--but it will be authentically your own. Just my two cents. Liminal

It's mine anyway. This double-bacon burger. So give me a bite.

Not sure if this is what you had in mind Joeblast, but your post reminded me of something I'd heard about the healing sounds. Making the sounds out loud to release on a more physical level; making the sounds subvocally to release more subtle psychic tensions.

It all just arrives this happiness undeserved enjoy anyway!

Hi Seth, I think you're farther along than you're giving yourself credit for. My understanding is that combining heaven and earth energies is the very essence of internal alchemy. Getting a teacher is always a good idea, and I'm sure you could develop your practice further and all, but as far as alchemy goes--I say you're already there. The power of the practice is testament to that. Liminal

Hi Futuredaze, I think it would be worthwhile to take some time to explore these feelings. Perhaps journal. If nothing else, the relationship is bringing up stuff for you that you can look at,stuff that might help you grow as a person. And that's what relationships are supposed to do IMHO-- so it's working. Spending time with your feelings might or might not help you get closer to her, but it will certainly help you get closer to yourself. Also, spending time paying attention to what the relationship is bringing up for you puts you in the best possible position to cultivate the kind of intimate relationship I'm guessing you want. Assuming you two decide to continue exploring together, what would you like your togetherness to feel like? I'm sure you don't want to be jealous, or insecure, or addicted. And if you do feel that way chances are your togetherness isn't going to feel so good to her either, at least not in the long term. I think the kind of practices people talk about on taobums are useful for relationships. If you do a practice that clears out chi blockages that helps. If you do a practice that centers you that certainly helps. Any practice that gets you in touch with you is bound to help. Really though, sometimes life itself is the practice. And perhaps never so much as when one is beginning a new relationship. It sounds like you are paying attention to your feelings. I'd keep doing that. My two cents. Liminal

Here's my list: (1) Kunlun/Yi gong, (2) primordial chi gung aka tai chi for enlightenment--but only if practiced multiple times a day, (3) the healing tao path as outlined by Michael Winn of Healing Tao USA, especially the progression of Kan and Li, (4) Sundo, and (5) shengzhen from Master Li. I've done all of these at one point or another, and believe that if you go deep with any one of them you will indeed go deep. Personally, I've never had trouble finding powerful practices. The far more important question in my experience is how to become the kind of person who practices diligently and consistently. Without that you can have access to wonderful practices galore and never get very far. Liminal

I don't begrudge the terminally ill and in pain the right to die with dignity on their own terms. Mostly though I think suicide is a bad move. My dad killed himself and I just recently wrote about some of my feelings. I've been wanting to share my writing more recently so here goes. It's pretty personal and confessional so fair warning to people who don't like that kind of thing... I need to write about rage. My father’s tongue used to curl ominously over his upper lip whenever he was overcome with fury, something that happened often and without warning. I don’t remember much really. There was that time he went to hit mom, and instead put his fist through the pantry door. We taped a Christmas card over the hole rather than get it fixed. He knew how to skirt the edge of domestic violence without ever actually going over the line. Dad was proud of his status as a non-batterer. It was the last thing he said to mom before blowing his brains out: “Remember, I never hit you.” Killing yourself is murder too. You don’t hurt only yourself. It’s twenty years later, and I’m still pretty messed up about it. Maybe the hardest part is my suspicion that he did it for me. He knew I’d be happy to see him gone, and I was. He shot himself so I wouldn’t have to. Or maybe it’s hard because I love and hate him in equal measure, and I don’t know how to disentangle my jumbled feelings. Terrorized children turn into emotionally handicapped adults. I wish I was better at relationships. I wish I could believe my boyfriend loves me—because he does. I wish I was softer, more forgiving of his foibles, less angry. I wish love felt safe.

sounds pretty nice to me Liminal

Taobums has changed my life. Mostly because I've found out about resources and practices that I've explored and incorporated into what I do. There are some very knowledgeable people on here who are doing/sharing things that I just wouldn't know about otherwise in my so-called "real" life. As far as the arguments and drama go, I mostly just ignore it. Well, not always true. I'm occasionally willing to duke it out if the subject matter is something I feel passionate about. Mostly though, that's not why I'm here. By now, I know certain people whose opinions and views I respect, and I learn a lot from what they have to say.

When it comes to discussing the ideal diet, whether for cultivation or just general wellbeing, things aren't nearly so simple as the ideologues, carniverous and otherwise, would have us believe. Too often we forget to ask key questions: for whom, under what conditions. While I myself strongly advocate for the virtues of a bacon cheeseburger (sans wheat bun, sadly), healthy eating is not a one-size-fits-all affair. Liminal

Personally, it would be challenging for me to follow the traditional advice. I'd be afraid of getting it wrong, feel awkward being so active and outgoing, doing something so foreign to me. And yet, I agree that it's the way to go. Even if different temples are different and you don't end up doing it exactly right for that particular tradition...still, I think the fact that you've gone out of your way to follow tradition the best you know how, rather than just taking the easy way out and offering some more generic form of respect, is sure to be appreciated.

A few further thoughts... One of the aspects that seems to particularly strike your waking self in relation to the dream is the kind of sociopathic quality of the murders. You don't feel guilty. Interestingly, sociopathy itself is itself a kind of numbness. A person should feel something--guilt, remorse, etc--but instead feels nothing at all. It's very common for people to treat themselves with less concern than they treat others. We often do things to ourselves, ie murder, that we'd never do to other people. Is there a way you are hurting yourself, perhaps even killing off parts of yourself, that you haven't, until now, been aware of? Are you numb to your own self-harming tendencies? Just a thought to explore. Liminal

Hi Mantis, The part that really stands out to me is the numb feeling that you say has some relation to your waking life. And how the murders seem motivated by the desire to feel, the desire not to be numb. I'd start there. Perhaps do some journaling or active imagination of sorts (reenter the dream as kind of a daydream in waking life and see where it takes you) focusing on the numbness. Numbness is interesting because it represents a kind of psychic edge. There's a defensiveness there. You feel numb because a part of you, anyway, doesn't want to feel. The big question, of course, is what lies beyond the numbness. What would you feel if you were willing to feel into the numb areas? You might be numb, but at least you aren't numb to your numbness if you get my meaning. You are willing to be aware of the numbness. Dreaming about the numbness seems to suggest that you are ready to go beyond whatever this numbness is in your waking life. Several people have alluded to the idea that you might be murdering parts of yourself. One of my favorite ways to look at dreams is to imagine that all the parts are parts of ourselves. In other words, it's all you. Can you see a part of yourself that's the korean girl, the mother figure, the voice, powerful mother nature figure, etc? As well, of course, as the murderer and the murdered. Can you locate these parts of yourself? What associations do you have with each of these characters? Do you see yourself in any of them in your ordinary life? Are any of these characters, perhaps, hidden--up till now--aspects of yourself that your dream is asking you to develop? To be...um, less numb to? And who, in particular, is that Korean girl you morph into through the process of rebirth? Perhaps you don't need to wait until you die for the rebirth to take place. Just a thought. Liminal

Kunlun hit taobums by storm, but that was a few years ago. Now we don´t hear too much (much to the relief of many, I´m sure). I´ve practiced on and off and gotten considerable benefit mostly on an emotional level--calmer, less anxious, etc. It´s been a gratifying but less than mystical journey. No out-of-body experiences, spirit beings, not even the odd reptile to spice things up. Anyway, I´m at a stage of beginning the practice in earnest again, and miss the old kunlun forum. I miss the sense of a kunlun community of people sharing their experiences. I think it´s useful, inspiring, to hear about other´s people´s practice. So...any long-term kunlun practitioneers care to weigh in? Anybody quietly doing kunlun (or yi gong) all these years? How has your practice evolved? Anybody do kunlun for awhile and then quit? If so, why? (I always think it´s kind of pointless when original posters attempt to control the direction of their thread. People mostly say what they want to say regardless, and that´s probably for the best. Still, I hope this thread doesn´t devolve into another debate as to the basic merit of the Kunlun approach, especially if not informed by actual practice.)