liminal_luke

Some murderous, hateful people believe in God, and some murderous hateful people don't. But I've yet to come across news of murderous hateful people who really get Manitou's "loving undercurrent." There's a hard won (I'm guessing) sweetness to that awareness I really respect.

What do people think of intentionally setting out to awaken kundalini? Most of the posts here from people who have don't sound all that happy about it. Is there anybody here who has awakened kundalini and just loves it? Lets hear about the benefits.

Pick me oh Kundalini goddess! I already suffer; why not suffer glamourously?

I'm interested in improving the fung shui in my bedroom, and apartment generally, as well. From what I've read so far it sounds as though there are lots of esoteric alterations that can be made, but perhaps most important is just getting rid of clutter and keeping the place clean. So that's where I'm going to start. When I called it housekeeping it bored me. Now that I see it as fung shui I'm more intrigued. Liminal

Women who want to have sex are bad???

Thanks Eugene. I think I'll try it. You think you can do a 100 day program and then stop and retain the benefits? If it worked I could see myself doing the 100 days once a year. Or is it really something where you're actually supposed to take the herbs indefinately?

Thanks Dmattwads! I have no idea if he'd agree with the specifics of my posting, but in the spirit of giving credit where it's due, I picked up the idea of linking different practies with levels of taoist cosmology from attending taoist alchemy workshops taught by Michael Winn.

I've looked at the Dragonherbs website and whatever he's doing must be working at least from a business,if not a health cultivation, point of view because I find myself fantasizing about all the herbs I want and wondering how I'm going to afford my treasures. Taobums have contrasted chi-gung and meditation practices with herbs and as a herbal newbie I have some questions for bums who may be better informed than I... Is it really possible to cultivate jing, chi, and shen by taking herbs? If so, how is that different from the cultivation that happens with chi gung practice? I'm wondering if taking herbs religiously for a month is roughly equivalent to say practicing tai chi for an hour a day. Or are the herbs and tai chi practice doing different things? If I work with smoothing out my emotions doing healing tao fusion, is that the same as taking a shen stabilizing formula? If I do chi gung movements designed to help the kidneys is that the same as taking a dragon herbs jing formula? As much as I'm tempted to fill up my dragonherbs shopping basket immediately, the web image of Ron Teegaurden does give me pause. I agree with a previous poster who noted he doesn't seem to have much chi. Ya kinda wonder if these herbs are as wonderful if he says why he doesn't look a little more vibrant or something. I'll probably do it though. He sells something called Tao in a Bottle--now how could I resist that!

This whole discussion has me thinking about goals in general. I love making goals and resolutions, oftentimes very mundane ones. Personally, I love taking showers and will stubbornly remain until the hot water runs out which, let me tell you, is not all that long at all in my apartment. Somehow though I'm ok with skipping my nightly tooth brushing if I'm comfortable in bed so that's on my goal list. My ultimate goal is to become a taoist immortal but I'm working on having clean teeth first. I find that one of the best ways to figure out the emotional blocks to reaching my goals is to simply do it and pay attention to what the act brings up in me. Sometimes action comes first. Years ago I set myself a goal to meditate for just 10 minutes a day. One day I just wasn't doing it and I couldn't figure out why not. Finally I just told myself that I was going to sit down and plow through those 10 minutes right then and there whether I wanted to or not. Well...I sat down on my cushion and promptly started to cry. I had no idea that would be my reaction! Didn't even know on a conscious level that I was sad. Following through on my resolution in spite of resistance taught me what was in the way. You just might learn something similar if you stop thinking about why you don't want to shower, checking taobums to see why other people think you might not want to shower, etc. Just drag yourself into the shower, grit your teeth if you have to, and get under the dang water already. The showering itself will teach you what your resistance is all about.

Any tonglen practitioneers about? I've tried it just a little bit, mostly focusing just on myself (tonglen for narcissists) and the most noticable thing was how relaxing it was. Thinking of taking it up again.

For me, it's relatively easy to leave people to their free will when their actions harm no one. Things get trickier--require more intelligence--when people's actions do harm some one. Is it still best to leave them to their own free will? What if the person they are harming is themselves? What if it's your significant partner and the person they are harming is you? If the intelligence fairy would grant me a wish this is the cognitive kindness I'd ask for: to know how to negotiate interpersonal gridlocks where my desire and somebody else's clash-- without controlling or allowing myself to be controlled.

Ah willingtolisten, don't be that way. I get that you're in a lot of pain, I do. But you know what? There are a lot of people here who are very knowledgeable and happy to offer help if you'll let them. You've been referred to some very knowledgeable and competent people (Santiago Dobles, Susan Carlson), and been given a suggestion for chinese herbs from an acupuncture student. What's the harm in trying out some of the freely given expert advice you asked for? You can always give up later. It takes energy to get help; it takes energy to listen. Could be that you just don't have it in you at the moment and that's ok. I'm sure the taobums will be here in the future if you're up for discussion down the road.

Opps, sorry. For some reason I got confused and thought this was about Max. Original post deleted.

Taoist cosmology finds it's practical application in alchemy. It seems to me there are two fundamental directions we can go as alchemists, I believe it's important to develop facility in both of them. The question is at what level of consciousness (10,000 things, 5 elements, yin yang, tai chi, wuji, etc) are we functioning at and where are we headed. So...we can be functioning on a 10,000 things level and go in the direction of wuji. Or we can be at wuji and go in the direction of the 10,000 things. Usually I operate on the 10,000 things plane where everything seems separate and unrelated. There's you and there's me and we're not somehow mystically the same, we're separate beings. On an intrapersonal level this is true as well: I'm living in my head and feel alienated from, say, my liver. Doing five elements practice takes me one step closer to wuji. I no longer consider everything as separate and distinct but "chunk" phenomena into five different piles. Everything wood gets thrown together (chunked) in the same category--my liver, my nerves, my anger, my hun spirits, the feeling of spring, everything that expands and grows, everything that evolves or wants to, the west, the planet Jupiter (if I'm remembering correctly), etc. This helps me feel less separate, more in relationship. If I'm doing healing work with someone and I get my own liver really clean and pure than I'll not only be able to feel the state of my own wood element, I'll also be in touch with the wood element of the other person. Want to go further along the road to wuji? Leave the five elements behind and begin deeper alchemical processes like kan and li. This means further chunking. Instead of five piles everything gets sorted into two: yin and yang. Put wood together with fire; both yang. Put metal together with water; both yin. Earth is already holding to the center as it is and is a special case. Then turn on your alchemical stove by putting the fire underneath the pot of water, maybe add a little lightening to spark the whole process, and voila!--pretty soon instead of 2 separate elements (yin and yang) you have a nice steam going. As yin and yang cook together there's a deeper sense of neutrality emerges. There's the void, an emptiness that is paradoxically full. Of course this isn't the end. We haven't really arrived at wuji yet. This is just as far as I know how to explain is all. But we're closer and we've used the map of taoist cosmology to understand the process.

Hi Cheya, Just got this book on my kindle on the strength of your recommendation,and I'm glad I did. For me, all the background on chinese medicine is a little dense to slog through-- although I'm sure it's super important for serious study. What I find new and fascinating are the experiential exercises for getting to know your meridians, and the idea that you can basically give yourself an acupuncture treatment with your mind by focusing awareness and breath on the points. Pretty cool. Liminal

I really relate to your liver insights as well. Can see that exact pattern in myself: excess kindness leading to a feeling of being drained and then anger when my "helping" turns out to be inefectual. Was taobumming at a local coffee shop, and just came home and told my partner that I realized I was wrong trying to direct his wellness efforts-- and that I was just going to let him do it his own way from now on. He didn't say anything, but his face brightened and he reached out his arms to hug me. Liminal

Yes I think I do. It will be challenging, for sure, to focus on my own metal element and leave his poor, beleaguered wood element alone-- but I'm clear on the work that needs to be done. Thanks so much for sharing all this. I feel like I just got a counseling session, and have a new sense of clarity. This really helps a lot. Liminal

Wow, I never considered how the five elements could play out between people in a family systems way. It seems especially empowering because it opens up for me the possibility of improving things for both of us just by working on myself. If his paranoia can hurt my liver, I'm thinking things could work the other way too: if I get my own elements working smoothly might my improved health will be positively contagious? Usually I'm overinvolved (metal element boundaries issue?) in his wellness in a way that I don't think works for either of us. Here's an example of how it plays out for us... (1) He's afraid so he doesn't want to go outside and instead spends all day inside playing video games or working on the computer. (2) I research depression and anxiety and discover the many benefits of exercise and sunlight. I think he'll feel better if he goes walking or jogging in the park during the day and say so. (Repeatedly, and with a, no doubt, annoying whiny tone.) (3) All my coaxing rarely leads him to do the supposedly healthful things I imagine would help him. Instead he continues to isolate and I feel powerless and angry. He feels stressed that I'm pressuring him to do these things, and says that if only I understood how hard it was for him, I wouldn't nag him to do these things. Our relationship deteriorates. These last few days I'm coming to the point of thinking it's better for me to just retire from my self-appointed role as his wellness coach. I think I have so many good ideas but somehow none of my efforts bear fruit. What seems hopeful is the idea of working on myself. At least then I'll feel better, and who knows, maybe he will too. Liminal

ChrunchyChocolate555, It's very admirable, of course, to strive to be a better person, to be kind and in service to others, etc. But there can be a "dark side," as you put it, to all this focus on being good as well that's worth considering. For some, the need to be good is rooted in self-hate. If you hate yourself (and really most of us do at least to a tiny extent) than it's not enough to be an average person; we need to be saintly to compensate for, and keep at bay, our feelings of worthlessness. This might not apply to you, but since you're in a space where you're willing to confront your own darkness, I wanted to put it out there as a possibility. Liminal

Thanks dmattwads for such a detailed response. From your description it sounds to me like fear is the root of his difficulty although, like you say it can, I think things have spread to include some earth and heart fire imbalance as well. He does get irritable at times but, sad to say, I think I'm the one with the out of whack liver in the family. You'd think living with someone who thinks the police are following him all the time would arouse compassion-- but it only makes me mad. He's in short-term cognitive therapy now, but if it doesn't work I'm hauling both of us to the local chinese medicine clinic. Thanks again, Liminal

Very interesting information dmattwads. I think 5 elements work is fascinating and I've enjoyed getting to know the various energetic flavors, as I think of them, when I've done meditations that focus on 5 elements work like six healing sounds and fusion. Wonder if you could speak to a question I have about spleen energy and worry? I'm wondering how you discriminate between earth element worry and water element fear. My partner has PTSD and worries (is afraid?) that he's going to be kidnapped. As a result he often feels uncomfortable leaving our apartment and going out into the world. This is just a for instance that I wonder about, and realize you can't offer a diagnosis over the internet. Who knows perhaps the root of his difficulty is some other element altogether (heart?). Anyway, how do you distinguish the nuances of worry and fear? Thanks, Liminal

Put me down in the smiling-and-emptiness-meditation-are-the-same camp. From what I remember from my vipassana days, there was a kind of unconditionality to the practice: we were supposed to regard everything with the same non-grasping awareness. Have a thought? Notice it. Have a feeling, sensation? Notice it. Notice yourself noticing? Even better. For me, smiling has a similar unconditionality reminiscent of vipassana. The smile carries what Winn would call "yuan chi," and is neutral, neither grasping nor running from experience.

Perhaps I don't know what I'm talking about but in the great taobums tradition, I won't let that stop me... Is it possible that a condensed pearl and a dissolved one are two aspects of the same proverbial coin? I've had the experience of my energy getting lighter and, somewhat paradoxically, more substantial feeling at the same time.

SantaRosaGuy, Yes, it's hard to make sense of the world when, like you say, there's so much bad. My partner likes to say that "everybody's crazy," and I believe it. Usually the people trying to pretend that they aren't crazy are the craziest so go figure. Anyway, your spiritual practices might not make you like the magus of Java it's true. But maybe they'll make you strong inside and you'll just know how you want to go about your life. Just felt like saying this. Hope it makes sense. Liminal

I want "powers" too so I'm right there with ya. Maybe if I renew my sense of childhood I won't want powers so much anymore though. I'll know I'm ok just as I am.