liminal_luke

For a fascinating discussion of fantasy and personality issues check out "The Erotic Mind" by Jack Morin. Also contains good advice for how to go about creating erotic change.

Personally the reputation system makes me disinclined to post at all. I'm just not interested in being judged like that. Yeah, yeah...I'm too sensitive, I know but there you have it. If someone wants to tell me whether they agree or not with my post in another post or in a private message that would be great but I don't see value in learning that my opinions aren't popular.

So true Taomeow, and yes it is a consolation!

Sorry for misinterpreting your post Scotty. Way back in the 80's when I was still just finding my way as a gay man, I went to a gay bar in Portland, Oregon called the Embers. There were several drag queens there, and frankly I hated it. Figured they were gay and effeminate so I must be that way too. Later I met all kinds of gay people and realized that being gay didn't mean I needed to fit into that mold. Some gay guys are naturally effeminate and flamboyant. Some gay guys aren't really so effeminate by nature but end up acting that way to fit in with what they perceive as the culture. I see it as a developmental process. A lot of what some people find objectionable about some gay people (parading around in the street in their underwear once a year for gay pride, periods of promiscuity, etc.) isn't really an inherent part of being gay. It's a reaction to living in a homophobic world, a reaction to shame. Try growing up in a gay in a small conservative town with homophobic parents and see if you don't have a neurotic quirk or two as well! Not that we're not fabulous, because mostly we are. But the world isn't quite ready for us (just look at some of the attitudes right here on our very own taobums!) and it takes a little emotional maturity to figure things out.

Thanks for the supportive comment Scotty, and I know I'm kinda nitpicking here, but they aren't generally "good people," at least not more than straight or bi people are. I'm gay myself, and have met hundreds of other gay guys among them a few not so good ones. Gay people, are people first and foremost, neither better nor worse than folks with other sexual orientations. That's not to say we don't differ at all from our straight brothers. While there are certainly some very masculine gay guys around, I believe there's something about being gay that makes it easier to integrate the masculine/feminine polarity, to integrate yin and yang. What straight people do having sex (bringing yin and yang together), gay people often embody in their very being. This has everything to do with taoism. It's the very essence of alchemy, the blending together of opposites, kan and li. It's an important quality gay people bring to the evolution of what it means to be a human being. Does it make us better, or more spiritually evolved than straight people? No, it doesn't. It does make us different though. To sum up: we're here, we're queer, and we're bringing a very special, even essential, quality of spiritual vibration to the planet. Not better than the beautiful more polarized male/female dynamic that generally characterizes straight sexuality, and not worse. Just different and oh so very necessary.

Not to throw the discussion into a completely different arena but....I'm wondering about the difference between Kunlun energy and kundalini. The kunlun folks say that kunlun is not kundalini. That it's more of a top-down rather than bottom up experience and thus incompatible with kundalini. My own experience of kunlun is, that while it can get pretty intense in the moment, it's nowhere near as intense as the descriptions here of kundalini. Any comments from more experienced kunlun and or kundalini practitioners?

Cat's description of the kan&li really brings me back to my experience in the workshop with M Winn. It was like that! Agree that without feeling it's not really happening. Sometimes for me though I have to start with visualization and then the feeling comes. But I think the more fusion is happening the easier it is to get the feeling for kan&li right away.

I think it's more or less like you say...you just have to keep at it until it starts to feel real. I'd work with fusion of the five elements first for a long time until you really feel like you have that grounded in your body first though. When you really get the fusion of the five elements going chances are that lesser kan & li will just happen on it's own anyway. Afterall, it's really just a natural process that's happening all the time. The meditation is just a way of becoming aware of it and helping it along. And yes, a class would very quickly give you a feel for it more than any advice here could do. When you go to the class and the teacher has kan & li bubbling along, and the other students start to get it you'll get it too without really trying. Just like if you go into a room and everybody's laughing. Very easy to start laughing too. And once you've got the joke you'll never forget it. But you can sit around reading about the joke for a long time and never see what's funny. It's like they say...."you'd have to have been there."

I took all the kan & li classes with Michael Winn although I haven't been doing much consciously with it in awhile. There's definately something to be said for getting the feeling of it from being in a class. I think it would be much more challenging to really get it just from a book, at least for me. So if you do have an opportunity to go to a workshop sometime definately do that. Have you done fusion of the five elements? That and working with the microcosmic orbit are pretty much prerequisite. I find that fusion of the five elements starts out as pretty much a visualization but as you do it takes on more and more of a real quality. You feel you aren't just manipulating the elements with your mind, but can actually feel it in your body. Kan and Li is the same way. You might start out thinking you are just visualizing but when you really get it there is definately a feeling to it. Hope this helps.

I don't personally know whether it's possible to increase bone mass, but I attended a healing tao workshop led by Juan Li once where he related that a student of his did just that. She had a life threatening condition related to osteoporosis and he advised her to stand in the embracing the tree pose for two hours a day and do bone breathing. Juan Li says she quickly began to recover and after several years of this admittedly kind of intense practice regained all of her bone mass.

Two things: (1) Twelve steps groups have undoubtedly done lots of people a world of good. (2) Central to the whole program is the idea of taking on a problem as an identity...ie "i am an addict (alcoholic, compulsive eater, codependent, etc.) While this approach has a certain utility in breaking through the denial characteristic of addiction, it's ultimately just not true. Problems and difficulties are not identities. Nobody *is* their problem.

To me all this questioning of Eric's character simply isn't all that useful to somebody considering buying his books, or embarking on the programs he outlines. (Should he ask you out on a date, well, that's another matter--investigate away!) Lots of people who can't do teach, and sometimes very well indeed. Many a narcissistic spirtual teacher has presented practices which, when diligently followed, reliably help students become beautifully balanced humble people. When i was in counseling school i asked one of my professors if someone with lousy mental health could nevertheless be a good therapist. Her answer: "yes, but i don't recommend it."

For a really interesting examination of this whole topic check out Gilles Marin's book--"Five Elements, Six Conditions: A Taoist Approach to Emotional Healing, Psychology, and Internal Alchemy."

Count me in as someone who has received nothing but benifit from Kunlun. For what it's worth what Mantra is saying really gells with my own experience. My own kunlun practice is often hard. Difficult emotions come up. In a weird way, I think it seem like going to psychotherapy. The experience of looking at myself isn't always pleasant, but what are ya gonna do? I stick with the conviction that, for me at least, I'm ultimately better off being aware of all the gunk I have inside. Afterall, it's there in any case whether I choose to look at it or not. And the more willing I am to look the more I get to see....the good as well as the "bad." Does the practice scare up any malicious reptiles? I can't discount anybody else's experience but I will say that I've yet to encounter anything of the sort. If malicious reptiles are out there in the universe (and I suppose they are somewhere, why not?) I'm thinking Kunlun could probably put a person in touch with them. The energy seems remarkably sensitive to my intention. It takes me where I want to go. Just hope that all the fear and drama around kunlun on taobums doesn't dissuade any spiritually adventurous types from trying it out. It's the most powerful practice I've tried for getting myself in touch with me.

I once asked Max how Kunlun and related practices could help with HIV disease. After much participation in the always exciting (if ultimately not very useful) theoretical pro/con discussion of Kunlun on taobums, I decided there wasn't much to be gained by continuing to weigh in on the matter. That said, if anybody is seriously interested in using Kunlun to help themselves or others to cure HIV disease (and doesn't have access to the man himself) feel free to PM me and I'll be glad to pass on his answer to the best of my recollection.

Chris (or other in-the-know Kunluners)......Any word on when this workshop will take place? Details? Thanks!

I'll be there as well. Liminal

Here's some interesting massage things to try... (1) Lightly touch the bony protuberance at the end of the sacrum with one hand while massaging other back/neck acupressure points with the other hand. Feel the energy between the two hands connect. (2) One hand lightly resting on the forehead. Other hand rocking the dan tien area just under the navel. Then both hands still feeling for an energetic connection. Repeat. (3) One hand on the shoulder. Other hand rocking the opposite hip. Then both hands still feeling for an energetic connection. Repeat. (4) Simultaneous circular massage of complementary joints. Working the shoulder and hips at the same time, elbows and knees, wrists and ankles. Play around with working with the joints on the same side of the body, as well as joints on the opposite side of the body. (5) Massage that makes contact with both the back and front of the body simultaneously. Massage the chest with one hand while the other hand is making contact with the back. Feel the energetic connection going all the way through. Massage both front and back of knee joint at the sametime. Sacrum/lower abdomen. (6) Lightly massaging along lines of meridians feeling for where the energy flows, where things get stuck. (7) Experimenting with holding acupressure points while keeping an internal focus on an internal practice. For instance acupressure while running microcosmic orbit. (8) Experiment with doing massage in a neutral way, unattached to the outcome for the other person. How does the massage change when you WANT the other person to relax for instance? Hope these ideas provide some food for thought....

Far be it from me to tell someone not to do acupuncture, go to herbalists,etc but in one very important sense Kunlun might prove even more effective than these other methods: it's something you do yourself. Yes, it helps to go to the workshop and get the initiation. Soon, however, you will find yourself in a quiet room just you, your body, and a clear method for connecting everything scattered in you with the deep divine peace that resides at the core of us all. This, in my humble opinion, is a perfect setup for healing.

My apoligies for contributing to the needless kunlunization of the taobums community, but I just have to ask--is anybody else planning on going to the March Kunlun workshop in Hawaii? This one sounds special as there is a one day workshop on "Kunlun medicine" being given the day after the workshop. Normally nothing could tear me away from Portland's dreary winter drizzle, but this just sounds too good. If anyone wanted to save money by sharing a hotel room with me we should talk. Thanks, Liminal

Is anybody out there willing (or allowed I suppose, dont want to step on anybodies toes) to share the details of the Kunlun 5 element standing form. Went to the seminar but the standing wasnt taught at the one I went to. Im eager to try it out and see what happens. Are the effects different from your standard embracing the tree posture, or the other rooting postures Michael Winn talks about on his rooting dvd (standing with arms outstretched to the sides and front)? Any experiences, instructions appreciated. Thanks! Liminal

Sereneblue--- Hope you're not still "freaked out" about your front meridian breathing experience. I haven't heard of anything like that before, but for me its kind of an article of faith that our bodies have the experiences they are supposed to in the right time. You had the experience you had because that's the experience you needed and were ready for. Probably something that happens for all of us, but you plugged into an awareness of it. For me, that's a very good sign.

I attended one of the LA seminars, and have to say that in the short period of time I've been practicing Kunlun has really changed my life. Couldn't tell you how it works, and I had plenty of hesitation in the beginning about doing something I had so little understanding of intellectually. But I feel happier and healthier than I have in years. So if you need a testimonial about the method Chris, count me in! That being said I almost didn't practice at all because I was SO turned off by Max's presentation of the method. I was one of the people who wrote to Hundun privately about how turned off I was about what appeared to be an excess of ego. Sorry, Hundun, for not having the courage to say so more publically. Because I think the method is so wonderful, it saddens me to think that some people will not ever get to the point of experiencing it themselves because they are so turned off by the hard-sell, the combativeness, the (illusion of?) ego, sensationalism, etc. In my opinion, all of Trunk's suggestions for improving how Kunlun is presented to the taobums community--and perhaps the larger world--are spot on. In the interests of spreading all the good things the Kunlun method can bring to our troubled world, I'm still hoping that Kunlun's promoters will be open to the kernel of truth in the suggestions/criticisms of sincere cultivators of people like Trunk and Hundun. I feel you are sincere Chris in your efforts to spread this wonderful practice more widely in the world. What a shame it would be if anything in your presentation of Kunlun led even a single person who might otherwise benifit from Kunlun from giving it an honest try.