liminal_luke

I've tried to write in a humorous, pointed, perhaps slightly detached style. Frankly, this seemed the best way to approach what to me is quite a loaded topic. But perhaps in doing so, I've come off as a little egoistic. So I'll try to speak from the heart. I'm quite surprised to discover that I care as much as I do what everybody thinks of me. Thought I had put more of my own homophobia behind me, but clearly I have more work to do. All my life, I've been told that I can't be spiritual as a gay guy. Attending a rural US high school in the 80's, I certainly picked up on the strong anti-gay Christian vibe of the people around me. In college I embraced my Jewish roots, and studied Torah for a year in Israel. Eventually though I figured out that I would never be able to make my Jewish sensibilities mesh with being gay in a satisfying way, so one day I took off my kipah (skullcap) and had a cheesy hot dog on the street, my first non-kosher meal in several years. Lately of course, I've been exploring taoist cultivation. And up until this moment I have not encountered any of this anti-gay sentiment among the taoist community. Now I'm realizing that the taobums is no refuge from this kind of thing. Of course I know that some people just don't have a clue. I wish I could just ignore them and move on. But in the place I'm in right now it hurts. I don't think being gay is a "lifestyle choice" Cameron. That's just not the way I've experienced it. I could no more easily stop myself from being attracted to guys, then you could stop yourself from being attracted to women. Maybe somebody out there just woke up one morning and "decided" to be gay, but it wasn't me. Of course celibacy is always an option--that would be a "lifestyle choice"-- but not having sex wouldn't make me straight, I'd just be a celibate gay guy. Like many of us taobums, spirituality is very important to me. It has been all my life. And yes, I like guys. I've been struggling for years now to find a place where I can feel whole, where both my spiritual yearnings and sexual self can be accepted. Don't get me wrong. These days I'm very happy being gay. If someone offered me a pill that could make me straight I wouldn't take it. In fact, I do think there are some advantages to being gay when it comes to spiritual cultivation. But I didn't get to this place overnight. It's been a long road to get to a place of feeling as good about me as I do, and while I'm certainly well on my way the journey isn't over yet. So if I something in my previous postings struck anybody as a little sharp, or egoistic, or "high" or whatever, just know that I come at this whole topic not in an abstract theoretical way but with baggage firmly in tow.

While there certainly is a lot to like about the whole gay sex thing, I'd hardly go so far as to say that man-on-man action prevents rape, or the twisted attitudes that take some guys in that direction. Were that true, prison recidivism rates would plummet. So yes, a small minority of gay dudes are rapists. We also count among our ranks a few murderers (as correctly noted by one of Pietro's teachers), a whole bunch of plain ole unhappy folks (nice call, Mandrake), but very few immortals (point well taken, Lin). Fortunately, this sad state of affairs hasn't stopped many of us from having fun on a Saturday night, or opening up trendy restaurants and art galleries, as charitably pointed out by Yoda and Sean respectively. I'm not going to oversimplify with the whole "we are just like straights except for what we do in bed" saw, but let me put it this way--nobody whose ever been to my place has called the next day for decorating tips. Gay or straight, we are people first. The relationship between sexuality and spirituality is complex, full of possibilities and pitfalls for everybody. But this much I know: gay people are every bit as capable of spiritual development as our straight brothers.

"It was a sad day when Liminal_Luke discovered he would never be immortal. Why, oh why, had he fucked so many butts? Fortunately, destroying the world was still a possibility."

What, you didn't see my rainbow flag? I may not have a girlfriend honey, but believe me, there's plenty of yin energy to go around over here at liminal_luke's happy lovenest. When I had my interview with Big Max at the Kunlun seminar, he told me I had very balanced male/female energy,would go far in Kunlun, and asked if I was interested in teaching. And while I'm not about to let such comments go to my head (wouldn't be surprised if everyone who pays their $150 bucks gets a complementary compliment or two), there is something about being gay that makes taoist cultivation just a little bit easier. Michael Winn once likened the alchemical process to cooking. Mix equal parts Jenny jellybeans and Charlie chile in the cosmic easy-bake oven in your belly and voila! Being a yang dude with your yin woman is cool and all, but ultimately we all have to connect with our internal yin and yang. And this is something that comes very naturally to the gay tribe. Snap!

Does anybody do their Kunlun standing? Lately I've been standing up occasionally (just standing on my toes so my heals are still up) and I find it really intensifies the practice. Any other standing experiences, suggestions?

Initially I was quite scared by the warning not to mix practices, but lately I'm feeling much more experimental. My latest thing is to lie down right after Kunlun, and put my palms over my lower dan tien area and circle a bunch of times first one way then the other--kind of like the "deer" exercise. I'm finding this sets off another cycle of wild laughter, which I assume is detoxing some layer of physical/emotional stuckness, and also helps me center my energy in that general area, something I can always use a little help with. If I don't post in the next month, assume I've died from the hubris of practice mixing. Oh well: shit happens. Another slightly unorthodox Kunlun approach I've really taken to recently is asking for the Kunlun energy to help me with specific issues as I practice. Sometimes I ask for the Kunlun to help me flush out residue from childhood trauma still lurking in my body; sometimes I ask for help with a health issue; sometimes I ask for my next step in terms of spiritual growth, etc. I am quite amazed each time how the Kunlun experience changes quite elegantly in response to my requests.

As a veteran of the last Los Angeles Kunlun seminar, I'd like to offer any taobums contemplating their own Kunlun adventure a travel tip: focus on your own experience of the practice itself, and forget about Max the personality. Here's a short list of things I no longer care about....whether Max is a master, an egotist, a fake, a nice guy, a real lama, bodisattva, etc. Call me cold, but I really don't care about Max at all. And I find that the less I think about him, the happier I am. Some of my Kunlun classmates found Max to be an amazingly friendly, down-to-earth guy with nearly God-like powers; others, well, not so much. Mileages vary. Either way it hardly matters. Please don't let your feelings about Max, good or bad, get in the way of allowing yourself to discover how the practice of Kunlun might be of benefit. Though I'm not going to be running for president of the Lama Dorje fan club anytime soon myself (sorry Max), I find I'm happier now after practicing Kunlun for only a few weeks. And while I could do without all the drama surrounding Max, I'm all about the happiness.

age, smage....I say go where you feel drawn, and don't worry too much about what age you are or anybody else is. Yeah, some people might treat you different but hey, that's their deal. Two stories. Me (41) and my friend Noran (50) once decided to attend a gymnastics class that was supposedly open to adults. Well turns out adult meant 12-19 but they let us in one time anyways. Felt kind of weird tumbling with teens, but you know what, we had a blast. Another time went with my mom (60) out to this local Cuban hotspot. Everybody else was in their 20s, and my mom thought I might be embarrased to be with her. I told her I couldn't care less how old everybody was, I wanted to take her because they have the best chocolate cake in town. I have been very interested in spiritual subjects since my teenage years as well. Don't think that's that uncommon. Sounds like you know something about who you are, and the direction you'd like to be heading. That's a beautiful thing at any age. Right now you'll likely be the youngest person at some of the spiritual workshops you'd like to attend. With luck you'll soon be at the median age of the workshop attendees, and perhaps eventually graduate to being by far the oldest spiritual seeker of your group. Whatever....Enjoy yourself.

Thanks Trunk. Get the feeling that all the flailing and uproarious laughter is a stage in order to clear blocks, and that once things are clearer the process will calm down a bit. It almost feels too easy. Easy in a way that feels good, but that I mistrust. Maybe I'm just hung up on the idea that meditation has to be such hard work? I've gotten great results from Winn's version of the healing tao over the years, but the benefits have come from doggedly sticking with a process (microcosmic orbit, innersmile, fusion) until eventually sensations/energies activated. With Kunlun I just get into position and immediately start laughing and gyrating around. It's like getting on a roller coaster ride. I'm probably being paranoid, but it makes me wonder if some other energy/being is coming in and doing my work for me. Feels good now, but still have to ask myself if this is really what I want, and if there will be some sort of price to pay later.

Since the workshop I've started doing Kunlun everyday, more or less, starting at 20 minutes and adding just one minute a day. Seems to connect me to a joy that is rooted in existence itself rather than any specific happy happening. Notice myself being more social, less inhibited. Lately the practice has got me in touch with some sadness, though I couldn't tell you what about. Just weird feelings that come up during practice. Wish I understood better what "kunlun energy" is on an intellectual level. Even though my experiences of doing the practice have been positive so far, not understanding the nature of the energy rankles me a bit. Feel like a friend gave me a stash of some really good drug, and I've been getting high all the time lately. It's probably a good thing, but would be nice to know what I'm taking.

I think alchemicaltaoism.com is a wonderful contribution. And I, for one, have personally gotten alot out of it. Regardless of what form the "about" section takes, I've no doubt that students will continue to find useful and inspiring information there. Trunk--"So-called "spiritual teachers" enter this modern market-place as entrepeneurs. Packaging and marketing. "All the tools you need to balance your energies in a weekend", "sexy, sexy, sexy". "These steps 1-2-3 and everything will be fine, safe, wonderful, spiritual, healthy, shiny". "We have it all worked out, and here it is". Don't we know it! The spiritual marketplace (as I've experienced quite recently, ahum) is full of self-inflated opportunists more interested in money and admiration than being genuinely helpful to students. Many of these "spiritual teachers" do indeed have interesting pieces of the puzzle but their ego needs make it challenging for students to really get at the true gold of the teachings. The world is full of self righteous "spiritual" posers, and what is so refreshing about alchemicaltaoism.com is that it isn't like that. Instead, alchemicaltaosim.com is delightfully humble, and free of marketing hype. Trunk (from the about)--"As for myself, I feel that I get glimpses into some profound parts of the path, but I've not achieved what I'd consider Basic Stability - and that's a challenge for me on every level. I know a little bit, but I've a lot more confusion and under-development than I'd like (if you know me personally, you'll know that I'm not just making humble talk). I've been around for a while, I write clearly, and online that too-easily gets mistaken for "jade bones" or something." But as we rightly try to steer clear from self-congratulatory commercialism, I think it's important not to swing too far into the other extreme of over-humility. The above section, while it may be true, struck me as a tad too apologetic. It would be ashame if someone read this and concluded that the author wasn't sufficiently evolved, and stopped reading or discounted the ideas presented later on in the site. Trunk--"Also, ideally, the website shouldn't exist at all." I'm not so sure about this. Enlightened teachers are great and all, but in my "perfect world" there will always be a place for imperfect people humbly but unabashedly putting their imperfect suggestions and teachings out into the world. Isn't that what taobums (and perhaps alchemicaltaoism.com) is all about?

Some thoughts. I imagine it must take a little courage, especially for a cautious and conscientious guy like yourself Trunk, to put out information into the world that almost certainly will be misused. No matter how careful you are to frame the information as "students helping students," some spiritual weekend warrior will find a way to hurt himself by overdoing/misusing some of the practices you suggest. Can you see it now? "Guru Trunk said to rotate my ankle 2 hours a day, and now I've aggravated an old injury." You can advise people to listen to their own body all you like, but some people are going to project their teacher/authority issues onto you, and, sadly, no carefully written "about" section is going to stop them. I'm guessing that you'll personally get alot out of the process of wrestling with the issues that inevitably arise from being in the public eye. Can you stand to put out your website knowing that, while on balance its clearly useful information, someone is going to read what you have to say, do something inappropriate, and blame you? Assuming that this question speaks to you, I think it's important to consider what might be the right forum for exploring the issue--through your own practices, conversations with friends, taobums, etc. The one place where I would be careful putting out any ambivalance is your website itself. As its presently written, it feels to me like some of your own self-doubt might be seeping into the "about" section in a way that dilutes its power. Just my two cents. Take with plenty of salt to taste.

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I've noticed something peculiar happening to me, and I'm wondering if it might be related to this whole Kunlun thing. Am signed up for the seminar, got the book, but haven't actually tried any of the meditations yet. Here's the thing: I'm happy for no reason in a way that feels oddly spiritual. Could it be that my spirit is picking up on the energy in advance, or am I just an especially wacky guy?

I am definately going. Looking forward to it!

I'm going too. Haven't even seen this video everyone's talking about as I haven't got it to work on my computer. But my intuition is that this will be a good thing for me to do, so I'm going. If it turns out not to be good, I will have wasted a few hundred bucks. Oh well. At least I will know for myself from my own experience. This much is clear: Lama Dorje is clearly onto something powerful as everybody seems to have strong opinions pro and con. Can't remember the last time people made such a fuss about me!

I think I might go see Lama Dorje. Why not? Does anyone know how it differs from say Kan&Li? The thing about internalizing black hole energy in your head sounds very Stellar Kan&Li to me. Editing here....I'm definately going.

We live in a messed up society. Messed up women everywhere are attracted to jerks. I suppose you could have sex with lots of messed up women by being a messed up guy (or faking it like one), but what would be the point? Racking up numbers to prove you're the MAN?? Bedding lots of women you don't respect (they fell for your deceptive ways after all)?? Deep inside every scheming PUA is a human being who just wants to feel connected to himself, other people, and all of life. In eros matter and spirit touch. Can you have sex in a way that makes room for both the earthy lustiness, and yearning for emotional/spiritual intimacy within yourself and your partner?

Mantis, could it be that your practice is giving your body the opportunity to go back and process residual effects of having taken lots of prescription painkillers? I think the ways we poison our body stay with us until a different something (practice, diet, whatever) comes along and sparks detoxification. Detoxification can feel like taking the drugs all over again.

Lozen: Consider the possibility that your larger SELF may be very focused indeed. There might be a part of you, a wonderfully compassionate and protective part, that is focused on distracting you at all costs from awareness of a truth you are not quite ready to integrate. Percieved lack of focus may be a symptom that something bigger is going on in your body/mind. My advice? : explore gently.

I went to the mountain retreat and continuing regular sundo retreat last year. My feelings about sundo are complex. Ultimately I decided not to continue the program though I'm sure that sticking with it results in some pretty amazing spiritual development. If your interested private message me at jessetepper@hotmail.com and we can talk by email or phone.

I don't have too much experience meditating during sex (except if you count energy spontaneously going up through microcosmic orbit), but I have done some meditating while giving bodywork--another activity that, like sex, becomes richer when I can be acutely present both to myself and the other person. This meditating while giving acupressure and chi nei tsang sessions was a suggestion of several teachers, and frankly I was a bit skeptical. Wouldn't focusing on myself by running the microcosmic orbit and even doing fusion etc, take me away from connecting with my client? Curiously, just the opposite occured. Although I wasnt paying as much attention in the normal outer way, the meditation seemed to allow a deeper--and automatic--connection to occur. My hands adjusted in subtle and precise ways that were in tune with the moment and worked, something that never would have happened in my normal non-meditative consciousness. Perhaps this applies to meditation during sex as well? It might seem like a silly question, but what are you having sex for? Are you hoping to connect deeply with a partner emotionally and spiritually, or just have a little fun? And how does your meditation contribute or detract from your goal(s)? How does your meditation effect the quality of your experience with your partner? My guess is that if you can let the meditation bubble up through you as a spontaneous process that you've activated with all your previous spiritual work, without needing to unduly focus on the technical aspects, you'll find that meditating during sex will open up deeper levels of intimacy.

Hi Top-fin....Once went to a chi-gung class that was specificially for lowering blood pressure. I'm not an expert but glad to pass along what I heard. Story is that high blood pressure is often associated with the chi going up to the head, and not being able to come down again. Any chi-gung movement that guides the chi down the body, preferably all the way to the kidney 1 point at the bottom of the feet and from there into the earth, is good. Here are some ideas: (1) Try standing and slowly raising your hands up to your head and then lowering them down over the body like a standing triple warmer healing sound. Ok, to actually touch your body to lower the chi if you like. Might make either the triple warmer sound or heart sound. Pause at the bottom and mentally guide the chi down your legs and into the earth. (2) Lie down and guide chi from bottoms of feet to waist level (not as high as the lower dan tien) and then back again. This one has to be done a long time to get energy down into the legs. (3) Repeatedly rub sole of foot over kidney 1 point toward toes. About 400 vigorous rubs per foot. (4) Rub up and down across face vertically. Quickly and lightly on the up motion, slow and with pressure on the down motion. Guide the energy down. (5) Rub thumbs lightly from index finger down toward pinkie. This will your body descend energy. Do it repeatedly until you feel the energy go down. Ok....good luck!