liminal_luke

Many years ago I was lucky enough to take a few weekend workshops with Master LI. I heartily recommend the experience if you ever have the opportunity. His movement and spirit is pretty amazing. "Enjoy the movement, enjoy your life."

Ah, but I've just got back from my first meeting of Oversharers Anonymous and am trying to be good. On a more honest note, I'd say I'm righter than some, not as right as others; richer than some, not as rich as others; happier than some, not as happy as others. Living my life in the gray middle zone like your average Bum.

I've always wanted to be right, rich and happy. That hasn't happened for me but I guess one out of three ain't bad.

If you can't speak a state, try to sing it.

Maryland

I don't think it's possible to make blanket statements about the value of controlled breathwork. As with so many other things, individual context is everything: who is doing what when.

Some will accompany manitou in spirit, others will model.

I'm sure monastic life is helpful to many, but judging from the quality of some of the householder posts in this thread I think great progress can be made while earning a living, raising children, traveling the world, or merely bumming about.

I don't know that it means perfect self in the sense you mean but I like the word mensch.

Yes, I suggest that if you are going to ignore someone that you don't say it. Just ignore them. Thank you for being open to this suggestion. I also suggest that you don't say that any members here are evil or tell anyone (other than your students) that they are practicing wrong -- even if you know you are right. People get mad and want to ban you from posting in the general areas. It would be ashame if a good student didn't learn about your teaching because you were no longer able to post. LL

Awaken, One of the things I admire about you is your one-pointed devotion to your stated goals. Life is short and you are looking for those people who are ready and willing to put in the work to learn what you have to teach and have no time or energy to waste on those who aren't. More power to you! At the same time I've noticed that you've stirred up some controversy and upset some people. There's drama in this thread right now and I wonder if this drama isn't taking you away, even if just a little, from your own purpose. I hope you won't mind if I offer a suggestion. Why deal at all with people who clearly aren't a match for what you have to offer? Very few people are open to criticism of their practice, perhaps especially those who have many years experience and their own teachers. You likely can use your intuition to tell if someone would be open to taking guidance from you. If they are not, why bother saying anything at all? Perhaps you can see that someone is using the transfer method and believing in incorrect teachings. That's unfortunate. But you can't change the whole world so why offer advice to somebody who is not willing to hear what you have to say? Why tell them that they are practicing incorrectly at all? Doing so just stirs up bad feeling and the people don't end up listening to you anyway. The same with the whole ignore feature of the forum. If you want to ignore someone why tell them about it? Telling someone they are on your ignore list tends to make people mad...and what's the point of that? Just ignore them quietly and go on doing what you do. I take it you've found some students here. I wish you and your students success and hope you reach your goals. Not everybody here is ready for what you have to offer and that's OK. Life really is short. If you skillfully refuse to engage with those who aren't prepared to learn from you these controversies will stop. That might be a good thing for all. Humbly, LL

Patient or not I'll say this: anybody who has put you in a "bad book" is no friend of mine.

Not saintly, believe me, not saintly -- but thanks for the kind words! I think this conversation brings us to an interesting question: what is spiritual development? I think spiritual development is like intelligence -- multifaceted. People can excell in certain aspects while being deficient in others. I can complete word puzzles like nobodies business but don't ask me to rotate geometric figures in my head. In a similar way, I think it's possible to be an accomplished martial artist, healer, or alchemist and not get along well with others. Part of me wishes it were not so. The kind of spiritual development I value goes hand in hand with compassion and kindness.

You're not the only Bum to think highly of Awaken's spiritual development, Taoist Texts. Spotless, whose opinion I've always respected, has also said that she's very high level. I think it's possible you're both correct. It's unfortunate that her interpersonal style precludes the kind of easy egalitarian discussion that is the norm here. In spite of annoying many, I gather that Awaken has managed to find some students on the forum. While alienating respected and accomplished Bums at every turn, she's nevertheless successfully fullfilled her stated purpose. Assuming that her students are happy and learning valuable teachings -- maybe we should ask them? -- I think that's all to the good.

I've not bothered by Awaken's prolific posts as I know what to expect and only open the threads on those occasions when I want to read about black liver and so forth. These posts may be more bothersome to other Bums who access the forum by reading everything that's unread, something I never do. If you're serious about the idea of getting these threads moved to a PPD, may I suggest posting this suggestion in the Forum and Text support section and pinging the Mods to make sure you get noticed.

Paradox, like reality itself, cannot be grasped by the rational mind. For this reason I believe paradox is a blue ribbon doorway to the nondual. Honorable mention goes to metaphor.

Ah, manitou. Do I, as you suggest, have pride in my rebelliousness? Maybe sometimes, a little, around the edges, but I'm not ready to say that's what is going on here. To me that's putting an unnecessarily negative spin on what I continue to see as a positive quality. I don't think I'm refusing vaccination because I want to be a rebel; I think I'm refusing vaccination because I honestly think that's the right choice for me. You're right about the price though -- I will have to accept the is-ness of the other people in my life who see things differently. Even you.

Out of compassion for the beautiful dualists and nondualists active in this thread, I will not further hijack the discussion with current-event-esque musings. Hope you understand.

I don't give a shit how you feel about me...I'm going to love you anyway. Love this and yes, it's very applicable to my situation. Thanks! Is it possible that my mom thinks I'm less of a "good boy" because of my refusal to get vaccinated? She hasn't said as much but I'm keenly aware of that possibility. She wouldn't be the only one to think less of me because of my stance. Differences about this issue have strained several of my friendships, one possibly past the breaking point. A Bum I know has repeatedly voiced the opinion that the unvaccinated are selfish and uncaring. There's a thread on the forum dedicated to analyzing the psychological pathology and spiritual shortcomings of so-called antivaccers. Indeed, reading news stories and mainstream opinion pieces about vaccination it's easy to feel that the whole world is aligned against me. This line of thinking isn't good for me and I've been trying, with limited success, not to go there. Yes, I could change the situation by getting vaccinated, but I'm actually proud of myself for not having done so. Against enormous societal pressure, I've continued to make the choice that I believe is right for me. Is it the right choice? Obviously I think so though I can't claim absolute certainty. What I am sure of though is this: it's not the easy choice. Sometimes I upbraid myself for being lazy and not following through on my resolutions. I tell myself I'm not going to eat bagels and end up eating bagels. I tell myself I'm going to do a certain amount of qigong practice and don't do it. But in this one area of vaccination I've stood up and done what I think is right in spite of everything. In this one area, I've been strong. My apologies for this semi-rant. May I get to the point of saying... I don't give a shit what the world thinks of me, I'm gonna feel like I belong here on this planet and find a way to love all it's crazy people anyway. May the many people who have experienced discord and enmity around Covid mitigation measures dissolve their distress in the loving embrace of the infinite sky.

I'm not willing to defend my belief system. It's not that impressive, really, as I take it you've gathered. If I thought I could get any buyers, I'd sell it on Craigs List.

Others more qualified than I to speak to this question can -- and have -- already explained. I suggest reading previous postings in this thread by Steve, dwai, silent thunder, and manitou.

Yeah, while I believe that suffering can be optional I probably should of used another example. The mother drive by scenario is admittedly extreme.

Sure, I'd love to meet up. No judgment here. Although I talk a good talk, or try to, my experience is more like yours: if I touch a hot stove, I suffer plenty. For this reason and more I prefer to stay away from red hot burners. Maybe we could find a lunch spot with comfortable booths, airconditioning and two for one margaritas. Lets keep the suffering to a minimum.

I've heard this from a lot of people so I assume it's true. My experience is quite the opposite however: I suppress my emotions in everyday life and when I do almost any kind of spiritual practice I become more aware of my feelings.

I agree that it's the unusual mother who would find the "suffering is optional" phrase a healing balm, especially at the beginning of her journey through grief. But consider the alternative statement: suffering is compulsory. To my ear this sounds even more cruel. At some point we all have the right to put down our burdens.