liminal_luke

Subtle energy development may not be it, but the same can be said for cooking and writing poetry and dancing at a sibling's wedding. Nondualists might do all of these things (I hope so!) but they do them without a solid sense of self. Although nondualist's are notoriously unpredictable, I imagine @dwai coming along any moment and asking a question something along the lines of...who develops the subtle energy body? If we're lucky, @steve will accompany this refrain on nondual guitar. Saint Saraphim of Sarov I am not.

I'm not familiar with Saint Seraphim of Sarov but is it really true that nondualists think subtle energy healers are "too dual"? Although I've got a lot to say on this thread, I'm not really a nondualist, at least not an accomplished nondualist. (For proof, look no further than my wording. The truly awakened don't use phrases like "accomplished nondualist." Ah well...) Perhaps those more immersed in nondual traditions can speak up, but I don't see why they'd object to subtle energy healers. At least not good ones! (Years ago I took classes in the art of ayurvedic bodywork. My teacher put great stock in developing a quiet, meditative mindset. For him, the quality of a practioneers mind while giving a massage was everything. I suspect there's few things in life more healing than a nondual touch.)

Love that place. Fields Books is the best.

Are you one of the many wise no-effort absolutists? I've got to give these no nonsense folks their due: in the final (non)analysis, you're right -- there should be no effort. In fact, effort likely jinxes the whole endeavor. For some of us karmically challenged folks though, effort is necessary in the earlier stages. We put out the effort to get to that place where effort is no longer needed.

Back to the drawing board...

What do we do with this life? A phrase from the Sefer Yetzirah, a book of Jewish mysticism, comes to mind: running and returning. To my mind this phrase refers to a rhythmic oscillation between nondual and dualistic points of view. Could it be that it's not enough to run, not enough to reach the point where all this nondual stuff makes sense and just stay there basking forever in the heavenly light? I think the "return" from nondual consciousness back into the mundane dualistic world is an equally important, and often underemphasized, part of the journey. To me returning means integrating some of the openness and warmth of the nondual perspective into our work, our art, our forum writing style, our relationships. It means relating to samsara narvanistically. Creating heaven on earth.

I'm a big propenent of nondual-lite practice. That's my own term for activities that may not result in nondual awareness, strictly speaking, but edge a practitioner away from dualistic extremes. To my mind, anything that's perceived as "centering" counts. Examples would include any kind of creative work (visual art, music making, knitting, crafting, etc), physical exercise and sports, anything that supports the state positive psychologists refer to as "flow." Mindfulness in general. Life itself is one big difficult-to-avoid nondual pracitce. We've all got, as The Beatles might put it, a ticket to ride.

Informed consent...so 2021.

Luke, who never misses a chance to ridicule the antics of brilliant but incomprehensible nondualists, invites Natural out for a beer. Do you like ranch sauce with your fries? (Just kidding, @Apech. You're quite comprehensible. I just wanted an excuse to go to lunch with Natural.)

pages on a screen annoying gobbledegook heart whispers: this too

No? I think they often do. While I don't have extensive experience with nondual traditions, the experience I do have suggests that they're very much about sitting with what is. Emotions are warmly embraced along with everything else. The phrase "it's just a story" might sound dismissive but that's just a story. That said, a person could easily get a different impression reading about nondualism on Dao Bums. To me, the tenor of these threads often feels super theoretical, abstracted, perhaps a little cold. Maybe that's just a function of the nature of online discussion. Perhaps especially of online discussion that's public, not associated with a particular community of engaged practitioners. In person, the practice feels much warmer, inclusive of the full range of human experience.

Almost all of us have suffered deeply -- or will soon -- and it can feel good to sit in the presence of someone who can sit with us in quiet acknowledgement of the depth of our suffering. Someone who can sit with us without getting anxious (so we don't have to caretake them), someone who won't try to make our suffering go away. So often we "help" others because they make us feel uncomfortable; we help them so that we'll feel better. The first thing any would-be helper needs to learn is how to quiet this compulsion to help and just sit in openness and acceptance of someone else's experience. It could be that as you sit together you'll both discover that pain doesn't have to lead to suffering. Or maybe not. The powerful thing is not to know, not to need things to be one way or the other, to let life unfold as it will.

...

I don't think people become more blob-like as their sense of self widens. Just the opposite. You know how salt has the magical quality of making a tomato taste even more tomato-esque? Enlightenment is like salt. It makes people taste like themselves.

At first glance, the idea of agency, actually doing things in the world, and acceptance might seem opposed. Why would someone bother to change anything if they're perfectly OK with the way things are right now? We think it's the people who don't like the world as it is who have the get-up-and-go to change things. But actually acceptance and agency grow together, might even be the same thing. The more we accept circumstances, the more power we have to change them. Conversely, wanting things to change isn't a particularly good strategy. There are several ways I would like my partner to change (a subject for another thread) but wanting hasn't helped me change him. Starting with acceptance would likely work better. I believe that those who know the secret of "leaving things as they are" have the power to change the world -- and often do.

I haven't spent a lot of time in the presence of immortals and other awakened beings. In my mind their activity/inactivity is without odor, though it would not be surprising to detect a faint fragrance of cherry blossom or aloeswood in their vicinity. Burning rubber? Maybe, who knows. If I had to name two things well outside my wheelhouse, I'd say nondualism and race car driving.

After awhile all the permutations of action and nonaction can get a little confusing but I think you and Michael Sternbach and I are all talking about the same thing.

My understanding? Wu wei is action without action.

You know, like getting HBO Max as an add-on with your Hulu subscription. Or what is a better metaphor for your geographic location -- snails with your beer? That sounds more lovely.

Doesn't wu wei action come bundled with nondual realization? Is it really possible to fully get the nondual thing without acting accordingly?

Here's an excerpt from Ethlie Ann Varie's substack, Affection Deficit Disorder... Q: I have a hard time balancing my intuition and my addictive drive. It’s hard to discern is whether that inner voice is my gut or my addiction speaking. How do I begin to trust myself and my gut? A: From the perspective of 12-step recovery, you’re asking the time-honored question “How do I know when it’s my will and when it’s God’s will?” Because if you get as far as Step 11, you find yourself asking for knowledge of God’s will for you and the power to carry it out. One old-timer gave me a great answer to that: “You know when you get a little thrill thinking about doing something? A little jolt of excitement? Right? Well, that’s not God’s will.” Her point was the same, I think, as what a therapist once told me: When anything feels urgent, that’s the addiction talking. Always. When you have to call right now. When you need an answer immediately or it’s the end of the world. When it has to be this person or all is lost…. desperation, urgency, impatience, these are functions of our old frenemy, the limbic brain. They are all about gratifying a dopamine/serotonin/oxytocin craving that science has only begun to understand. .................................................................................................. I love this because I think it speaks to issues around dualism / nondualism at a level I can relate to. In my mind "addiction" is duality on steroids and "God's will" is action that arises from nondual consciousness. Whenever something feels desperate, like it's just gotta be this way, I can bet I'm caught up in a dualistic story. I may not be able to jump from that insight to full nondual realization, but if I can put off insisting that things be my way for a few seconds or minutes or hours then I've made a baby step towards awakening. Or at least I think so.

Does non-dual realization come at or near the endpoint of spiritual development? Or is it more like Everest basecamp, the first stop north of duality where intrepid spiritual climbers gather their energies for the real (alchemical) work ahead? If you'll kindly hold a lifetime or two, I'll be right back and let you know.

A Washington D.C. citizen oversight committee has issued a report criticizing what they called an inept and abjectly unprepared police force. A union spokesman responded pointing out the difficulty of keeping the peace in an increasingly awakened society. As one rookie put it, you try handcuffing someone without a discrete body. In a special training session, officers were provided with butterfly nets in order to apprehend criminal followers of Chuang Tzu.

I've just about had it with the non-dual supremacists. And to think they tried to stage a coup, taking over the capitol building and everything.

A lot of life in this one. DakhaBrakha: NPR Music Tiny Desk Concert - YouTube