liminal_luke

I dunno. A moratorium on Mo Pai discussion imposed from high sounds crazy to me. On the other hand, individual members can -- and perhaps should -- institute their own self-imposed moratoriums on discussionless discussions from time to time. Taking my own advice now.

As a gay man, I´d much rather date the guy from 1947. Why do you think we like old movies? At the same time, I think I see what Sean finds offensive in the meme and feel the same way. So I guess you could say I both (not-so-secretly) agree with the sentiment of the meme and find it offputting at the same time. Life´s complicated. So is humor. Most things wouldn´t be funny if there wasn´t at least an eensy-beensy potential to offend. I think both Apech and Sean have the best of intentions here. That´s not very funny but it´s true.

Yes we do, thanks. Now that you´ve gone and kicked out the alt-right what do you think is left for conflict-hungry pseudo-leftists like myself to fight about? Precious little. I have to settle for Mo Pai crumbs, and now there´s talk about taking that away with a ban too?! If this keeps up I´ll be forced to do something else with my time altogether, meditate or something.

@sean I do not ask anybody to prove anything. i do not ask anybody to share anything they do not care to share. But if they reference (even obliquely) their secret thing that can´t be talked about And say that they are victims because people like me on this forum are forever mistreating them And if they do this over and over again over the course of many years I reserve the right to voice my frustration.

Send in the Clowns

One of my first goals in therapy, some decades ago, was to feel like I was inside my body. It wasn´t as though I was anywhere else -- I am not the floating-around-the-ceiling type -- but I didn´t feel solidly rooted inside myself. I think this is a symptom of the kind of soul fragmentation Taomeow mentioned above, and I think it´s extremely common. There´s all sorts of subclinical cases: people who function just fine in everyday life and don´t have any glaring psychiatric diagnoses and yet aren´t entirely put together either. When cultivation is working for me I know because I feel myself inhabiting my body differently. My voice deepens. There´s not that baseline jumpiness that keeps my energy from settling down out of my head. I´m just more me.

And yet this thread has gone on long enough.

The dialogue you quoted from me was probably a little heavy-handed. I just wanted to illustrate the nature of my own frustration with the subject. Your gentle questioning of the dynamic and how it might change is certainly a breath of fresh air. It would be amazing if space opens up here to have a real discussion of Mo Pai. Or else to drop the topic altogether. Personally, I don´t think that will happen because the people who could contribute to that discussion don´t want it, nor do they wish, really, to drop the topic. Guess I´ll wait and see.

If you really want discussion about Mo Pai to stop, Mildmouse, you could lead the way by not contributing to the discussion. For instance, you could refuse to reply to this and all subsequent posts in this thread. The conversation would dry up quick, I assure you. You could engage in threads about other topics and not interpret everything through the lens of your practice and practice group. The only reason people know you´re involved with Mo Pai at all is that you´ve said so. If you stop saying so people will forget and you´ll get the moratorium you say you want -- and save the millions of dollars you imagine it would take to buy the forum from Sean! Of course you may want to talk about Mo Pai and that´s fine. I just wish you´d actually really talk about it -- the technique, the results, etc. If it´s not safe to talk about it because people here are too...well, I don´t know what...but anyway, if you can´t talk about it here, then don´t. That´s fine too.

I´m not so irritated really, just passing time posting at a cafe. Still, it´s strange to me that there´s so much talk about Mo Pai -- all of it at the instigation of supposed group members -- and then when someone naturally asks an innocent question like "tell me about your practice" nothing is forthcoming. All we get is endless talk about how it can´t be talked about. There´s no substantive talk about Mo Pai at all, only talk about how the group is victimized here. I don´t have a problem with people having secret practices. Many people here have secret practices, I´m sure. But it´s disingenuous to say you don´t want drama while doing nothing but stirring up drama. Obviously the drama is wanted or there wouldn´t be any. Most people with secret practices don´t experience drama because they don´t constantly advertise their secret practices. Problem child: I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you. Curious child: Is it a red car? Problem child: I can´t talk about my car because it´s not safe. Curious child: OK, what do you think they´re serving for lunch today at the cafeteria. Problem child: Who cares. I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

It´s not a big deal to have secret practices that can´t be discussed but in this case it´s better not to discuss them.

Taomeow, as a person with a "traumatic developmental history" (aren`t we all?) I appreciate your care with terminology. Life is occasionally tough and I`ve been known to judge myself harshly. I`d rather not add "defilements" to my list of negative stuff to deal with.

I personally am interested in Mo Pai and would love to know more about it. In particular, I´d like to hear about the life and practice experiences of the people who have taken up the discipline. And before anyone from the "group" jumps in to tell me so, I already know: this is not a safe environment for such sharing. Thelerner tried to start an actual discussion about Mo Pai once. He did it in his personal practice area so he could moderate flamewars. Despite his sincere efforts, it went nowhere. Too bad. Some people think there´s too much discussion of Mo Pai here, but I think there´s not enough. Actually there´s no discussion at all. No real discussion that I remember of techniques, no real discussion of experiences. I think this is a situation that calls for some equaimity and acceptance. MildMouse is MildMouse. Ilovecoffee is Ilovecoffee. We´d love it if they answered questions. If they engaged in some sort of reasonable back-and-forth dialogue. Well folks, ain´t gonna happen. I can choose to stop beating my head against the Mo Pai wall -- or not -- but the wall is here to stay.

I was a very flexible piano player in my youth so to show off for visiting relatives I used to play the Maple Leaf Rag with my feet behind my head.

Oh, I didn´t realize that. Thanks for letting me know. It looks like her video is still available on her website but too bad that she´s not teaching in person. Good luck finding the right teacher for you!

I suffer from a persistent delusion, the idea that it´s possible to win an argument on the internet. Despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary, I believe that if I present myself logically my debate opponents will carefully consider what I have to say, come to realize that they were wrong, gracefully acknowledge the correctness of my view. This basically never happens. It´s much more common that people simply ignore me and reassert their own view. And so on it goes... This is what I see happening here. It´s very hard for me to disengage. I want others to see that I am right and come around to my side but that´s just not gonna happen. Resistance, as they say, is futile.

Perhaps all the contention in this thread could be solved once and for all if we just made it into a video?

So far the course has been great for me. Peng says that if he had to pick one word to describe the practice it would be "mighty." I can see that. Yesterday during practice I found myself in a very determined, warriorlike state of mind. Not angry, just very yang. Anyway, that´s how I´d describe it. I mention this because it´s so different from my usual way of being which is a lot softer. While I´m not sure I´d like to go through life stuck in warrior mode, it´s been good to touch in with this end of the spectrum. After practice I took a nap and for a little while after I woke up I was different -- more extroverted, saying whatever came to mind with less of a filter. This change didn´t last more than an hour or so but I enjoyed it.

That´s fine, MildMouse. I won´t debate the issue further. If what you really want is a private discussion with Earl Grey though, may I suggest the private messenger? Or even regular email, Skype?

Now you´ve got me curious. Am I being sorted into the "in favor" camp or am I the "seemingly neutral" one? I love the idea of seeming neutrality (so mysterious!) and am hoping for that category.

I agree that math can be learned from a video, given that someone has the motivation and a mind predisposed to understand mathetmatical concepts. Math is complex but it´s also logical. If you can follow the logic, you get it. At the other end of the spectrum, there´s tai chi. Many students come to believe that tai chi can´t be learned period -- not from a video, not from a class. There´s a gazillion subtlties that can´t possibly come across through Youtube no matter how skilled the videographer. I remember my teacher making minute adjustments in the angle of my wrist or fingers and, as if by magic, the chi would start to flow. How did he do that? I still haven´t the foggiest. Of course thirty seconds later my position would of drifted ever so slightly and the energy would fade. I couldn´t put myself back into the right position even though I´d been there just a bit ago. The precision required can only be learned proprioceptively, by getting your body to do it right and feeling what that´s like. It´s more than just a visual thing. Tai chi is an extreme case but there are other skills that require similar in-person instruction: brain surgery, contemporary dance, football.

This thread started with an interesting video and has devolved into a Mo Pai debate. Chalk one up for sticking with original sources.

Sifu Jenny Lamb who teaches Yigong (the system that Max Christensen turned into Kunlun) lives in your area. Or at least she used to. She´s a powerful lady -- might be worth looking into her teaching.

Off the top of my head... Stillness-Movement Sundo Healing Tao/Universal Tao Sheng Zhen Spring Forest Robert Peng´s teaching Max Christensen´s Kunlun Method Yigong (Sifu Jenny Lamb) Juan Li (healing tao instructor with some individual things) Chi Nei Tsang as taught by Gilles Marin Not sure if this is what you mean and not all of these are necessarily "modern." Just what comes to mind.