liminal_luke

In the beginning Daobums was a place on the internet dedicated especially to the discussion of Daoist theory and practice and sundry other spiritual pursuits. Not anymore. Now the majority of the posts relate to politics and controversial social issues. Will President Trump save or destroy the United States? Should transexuals be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice? Everywhere we look these days, political divisiveness is tearing apart social bonds – community spirit, friendships, even marriages – and now it`s come to take down my erstwhile favorite corner of the interwebs. It`s a development that`s both sad and neurologically inevitiable. Because: dopamine. Dopamine is the neurotransmitter that floods the brain when we think we`re about to have a rewarding experience. And what could be more rewarding than demolishing the idiotic arguments of our political foes? That`s got to be as good as chocolate cake or sex or yet another pair of expensive high-heel shoes. It`s almost as good as cocaine; indeed, the experience of posting something contentious on the internet is similar in form – if not in scale – to a drug high. This is why we can`t (or won`t) stop. Our brains keep telling us that posting about Trump is going to feel good. I`m learning to recognize that surge of excitement that comes over me before I do something fun and destructive, something with the potential to please me now and hurt me later. I`m learning to say no to porn and that plate of fettucine alfredo. To say no to Trump Talk. So many of the most nurturing things – calm evenings snuggling with my partner, kale, quietly informative posts about Daoism -- seem boring to my process addicted psyche. In my fervor to regain psychological equilibrium, have I become that most annoying of characters – the moral scold? Am I making the logical error of assuming that my experience mirrors that of others? If so, I apologize. It`s like this: nobody hates cigarettes as much as the guy whose recently quit. In this journey to become our best and truest selves, there are phases where our voices become a tad strident, a smidge over-insistent. Or at least this has been my experience. Anyway, posting here isn`t good for me anymore... and so I`m going to try and stop (though I will still read the posts of others and offer occasional likes). Wish me luck.

in my humble view judgement is bad (sips coffee) goes outside to play

Opinion-Burnout There`s something about the medium of social forums like this one that encourages us to belittle themselves, and I mean that in the literal sense -- to make ourselves smaller. You don`t see all of me. My physical presence, for instance, is entirely absent. You don`t see the shape of my body, my choice in clothes, the sound of my voice, my mannerisms, Some of my sense of humor comes through. Some of the way I am with other people comes through. Mostly what you get though is my opinions. And, believe me, my opinions are far from my best feature! The medium of the social forum then encourages -- if not forces -- you to make a judgment about my opinions. You could choose to like them. (Yes please.) Or you might press a button indicating that my opinions make you laugh or feel sad or confused. It`s very likely that at some point you`ll present an opinion of your own, possibly in opposition to one of mine. If you do we can fight to the death, or at least until one of us is so forum-sick and disheartened that we up and quit this place altogether. The one who leaves, loses. (Or is the loser the one who stays?) What`s wrong with all of this opinionating? I don`t dare make a judgment. I`ve learned a lot from this place, over the years. I feel blessed. But a social forum is not the sky or a flower or a kiss. I`ll trade you a thousand opinions for a hug.

One way to think about judgment is to consider whether or not it`s in our self-interest. What does it feel like internally when we are judgmental? When we let our judgments go?

Maybe it`s not an all-or-nothing kind of thing. I think there`s a middleground where we have judgments but hold them lightly. We can learn to take our judgments less seriously, giving ourselves and others more and more room to breathe.

Thanks for the nomination, Pilgrim. I`m humbled by the notion but respectfully decline and in turn nominate Trunk and Ralis as co-administrators. More conservative Bums often criticize left-wingers for our lack of policy know-how and emotional natures. Putting me in charge would surely lend weight to that idea -- and we liberals are beleaguered enough. In my ideal world, people would actually talk to each other without putting down the character of those they don`t agree with. That`s the kind of Trump Talk thread I have long argued for and would actually enjoy. It`s not politics per se that`s poison for the board; it`s the way people talk about politics. There`s way too much attitude, way too much sneering. Of course so-called spiritual conversation is not immune from the same conversational disease. You are so stupid to think that the preheaven green dragon has to copulate with the inner yin of the red phoenix to get to the invisible immortal peach because my teacher said... If we could talk politics in a respectful way I`d be all for it. We can`t.

Exactly. Suppose you needed open heart surgery. You might "judge" that I`m not the right one to perform your operation based on my total lack of surgical experience and cardiac know-how. Such a judgment might well save your life. If, however, you came to the further conclusion that my lack of surgical acumen marked me as an inveterate deadbeat and all-around bad person, well, that would be taking judgment too far. Or at least I`d think so.

Judging gets a bad rap but we all do it. I think what people don`t like about so-called negative judgments is the aspect of non-acceptance. We do better when we accept the world as it really is. There`s a positive aspect to judgment too though, and that`s the quality of discernment. In our desire to be nonjudgmental, we shouldn`t have to pretend that we don`t know what we know, see what we see. Sometimes statements of discernment may seem moralistic and "judgmental" but they don`t have to be. I can perceive, for instance, that someone is lying and still be accepting of that person.

Probably so. A Bum recently posted a link to Mark Griffin`s Hard Light website and I perused his online video offerings. He has one entitled The Deeper, The Higher. (That may not be the exact title if I`m remembering wrong.) I believe that the basic idea is that one has to dig deep to go high. It`s a sentiment that I`ve found to be true in my own practice life. Nothing puts a person face-to-face with internal darkness faster than a personal commitment to seek light. Perhaps that`s why Daoists, more than most, are comfortable discussing things that are a little down and dirty. Relatively speaking, we`re a pretty scatalogical bunch.

I collect words from my reading, and assholery is a gem from my collection. Glad you noticed it! It`s the kind of word that comes in especially handy when one wants to make a snide insulting comment while appearing to keep to the rules. Call someone an asshole and the mod squad could bust you without breaking a sweat. Say that someone engages in a whole lot of assholery and the mods have to call a committtee meeting. Not that I`m that kind of person.

Personally, I love the pitting. Realistically, there`s not a lot of difference if Trump discussions are in the pit or Off-Grid: Bums who enjoy talking politics can carry on as easily in one place as the other. So it`s not as if the books have been burned, just moved to a well-ventilated area of the basement. It`s true that there`s a part of me that would like to see the forum without political conversation altogether but I don`t feel as strongly about it as it might seem. If there was a vote, I`d happily check the book burning box, but I`m not sneaking around at night pouring out metaphorical gasoline. I`ve been a little annoyed about Trump Talk honestly because I have some expectations about how I should be treated there that were not being met. Basically, I wanted civility and basic respect as a person and I felt I wasn`t getting it. It occured to me to report the posts I found offensive, but I didn`t because I thought based on prior experience that doing so would not accomplish anything. I assumed that any reports would be met with silence, or that I would be told, basically, to buck it up. The advantage of the pit is that assholery is to be expected. I don`t feel offended experiencing it there because, well, that`s the place for it. If I want civility (and I do!) it`s my responsibility to stay out of the pit. I can deal with that.

If someone is enjoying a cellophane wrapped golden spunge cake in the privacy of their own home, I`ve nothing to say about it. If the "treat" is enjoyed here, but quarantined in the pit, I`ll deal. If the forum becomes so inundated with cellophane wrapped golden spunge cakes that they start to off-gas into the general atmosphere, we all have a stake in the situation.

For most of us, national politics isn`t really one of our life`s tough problems. For many, talking about national politics is a way of avoiding life`s tough problems. Should a health food store be forced to sell Twinkies just because there`s a market for chemically-laced sugary treats? No, the owner of the healthfood store has a right -- if not a responsibility -- to sell food that`s nourishing. It`s no different here. If my favorite organic grocer started to turn into yet another 7-11, I might mention to management that I missed how things used to be.

As Jeff suggests (I think), sometimes these uncomfortable feelings can be part of a larger, beneficial process. Hope things feel more steady for you soon.

I`ll confess that I was briefly tempted to look under the bed myself (but successfully resisted the urge). It`s true, as you suggest, that pitting Trump-related threads doesn`t entirely resolve the bummer of an identity crisis we`re currently dealing with. The larger question is what kind of a forum we want to be: one where the discussion of politics is allowed to predominate or a spiritual forum. When most of the discussion here revolves around political topics the whole character of the board is changed. This is true for everybody, including those with the discipline (or blessed disinterest) to avoid Off-Grid. Bums who would otherwise put their energy into commenting about spiritual philosophy and practice instead spend time enmeshed in a Trump-esque conversational sinkhole. Some bums get so disgusted by the interactions they have in said sinkhole that they abandon this place altogether. Everyone loses. On a subtle level, I believe the contentious energy of Off-Grid spills over into other parts of the board: it becomes part and parcel of who we are. Many people enjoy talking about politics. Far be it from me to suggest that they shouldn`t do so. The only question is whether they should do so here. Seems to me there are many places to talk Trump and few to talk Dao. What we have here is special and we should take proactive steps to protect it.

I`m betting it`s just an oversight. Certainly seems like both threads are of a piece. Pit both (along with any further discussion along these lines) and the whole issue that we are talking about/not talking about here goes away.

Wow, the thread has been pitted! Hard to believe. That doesn`t completely settle the question of off-grid political discussion but it`s a gutsy, and sure-to-be-controversial move. I`d like to personally thank whoever made the decision. Dao Bums has been part of my life for a long, long time now and it`s far to say that my life wouldn`t have been the same without it. Many of the practices and teachers that have become important to me I learned about here. Honestly, I talk about politics too. It`s exciting but it`s not the kind of excitement that feeds my being. It`s more of a gambling-type excitement, a let`s-see-what-those-crazy-people-who-disagree-with-me -have-to-say-now kind of excitement. Lately I`ve felt like the forum has been overgrown with political weeds. Pitting Trump Talk feels like a healthy step in the direction of returning this place to it`s rightful mission.

I second this. Everyone gets to post wherever they want, of course, but I can't help thinking about all the wonderful posts that might appear if the attention of experienced Taoist cultivators wasn't siphoned off into the political nethers. I know for a fact that Trunk and Joseblast have all sorts of practice-related insights I`d love to read about. Judging from her blog, Red Cairo has an amazingly rich spiritual life that we almost never hear about. What great cultivation posts are we missing from Brian and Taomeow because they got into a Trump Talk spat and split?

Well said, Trunk. If there`s room on the board for Trump-love there must be room for Trump-hate. What appears to some as "hate" could instead be understood as love-of-country, advocacy for responsible stewardship of environmental resources, a protective attitude towards economically or socially disadvantaged minorities, a preference for peace...and so on. Disagree? Luckily (or perhaps not), there`s a thread in which you may voice your disagreement with as much gusto as you wish. If you do so, you`ll likely find yourself surrounded by like-thinking internet friends. Just understand that your point of view won`t be universally lauded. A few liberal holdouts will continue to sound the alarm about Trump`s presidency. Their voice may sound shrill, their posts repetitive. You might find their daily rants to be lacking in the kind of rational policy discussion you prefer. As Trunk mentions, the ignore button might be a useful feature in this instance, allowing you to curate your reading experience to reflect your reading preferences. To shut down such voices as "hateful" towards Trump -- an arguably useful and valid attitude -- is to take a fateful and ill-conceived step towards shutting down discussion altogether.

Thanks, Yueya. In my opinion, you`ve put your finger on the thorny issue at hand. I wouldn`t want to suggest that the moderators would purposely go out of their way to silence an opinion they don`t agree with; in fact, I bet they are taking pains to avoid doing exactly that. Still, we`re all human. Interestingly, the posts in question that are disagreeable to many don`t bother me one whit. Probably because I feel politically aligned with them. Some of those who are politically out of synch with this poster may feel ruffled. (At least I assume someone is ruffled or why have this discussion?) Meanwhile, other posts that seem hateful to me -- and have been reported by me -- have been allowed to stand. If I was in charge of moderation, the poster in potential trouble would be someone else. The moderation action would be different but no less safe from charges of bias. That`s our reality, I guess. Millions of people in the US and around the world are so alarmed about the state of current affairs they can hardly see straight, much less talk coherently about the issues. When these people attempt to write, what comes out may look like unintelligible word-vomit to the more sanguine majority. It may appear that the ravings of the alledged distressed madman are not constructive or on topic. I disagree. To me, these posts are a scream in the darkness. The posts may seem hateful, unhinged -- and indeed, perhaps they are. Still, political opinion exists on a wide spectrum. Lets call it YIn to Yang, since this is a Daoist forum. To arbitrarily cut off any cross-section of that circle, even if it seems hateful or inarticulate or meaninglessly repetitive, would be lose lose our wholeness.

Apropo of this, I`ll repeat my opinion that when such ranty venting is directed towards a certain political figure in a thread devoted to the discussion of said political figure, I think it should be allowed to stand. Is such ranting constructive? No, it`s not. But silencing a voice of dissent, particularly when that voice is in the minority in the discussion, feels heavy-handed. People are allowed to say all sorts of nonsense here, as is clear to even the most casual observer of the forum. Given the tradition of posting permissiveness here at the Bums, especially in the off-grid area, it makes sense to set the bar against moderation action very high indeed. (As always, I appreciate your thoughtful approach to these issues, Dawei. As a rank-and-file member, my opinion doesn`t have standing, but I offer it anyway.)

rkc, Sifu Jenny Lamb, who originally taught Max Kunlun (she calls it Yi Gong) is also a Buddhist meditator. She says that if you`re doing Yi Gong without awareness you aren`t doing Yi Gong. So the awareness and focused attention developed in practices like vipassana synchs very well with Kunlun. Other strong practitioners have combined Kunlun and vipassana as you seem to be doing.

Whatever spirituality is, I`m pretty sure we all have it. My mom once told me she`s not a spiritual person -- but I think she is. Perhaps my mom meant that she didn`t go to church or believe in God. Or perhaps that she`s not the kind of person that feels comfortable chanting OMMM in a yoga class or who would find much interesting to read in a New Age bookstore. To me, none of that stuff matters. The world is full of secretly spiritual people whose spirituality doesn`t fit into the conventional molds. I think of spirituality as that force in my life which is drawing me towards being my best self. It`s the force that is drawing me towards wholeness, towards integration. It`s the inner tug that pushes me to be who I really am. When I`m avoiding what I need to be doing in life, my spirituality can make me anxious or depressed. Sometimes it tells me to meditate. Just as often it nudges me to pay my taxes or clean the bathroom.

Thanks 3bob. For what it`s worth, I do agree that these drugs are way overused. They do have serious side effects that are not always well-described by prescribing physicians. The latest thinking about depression is that it`s an inflammatory condition. As such, there`s a great deal to be gained by eating a diet that minimizes systemic inflammation. The beneficial effect of exercise has been demonstrated in studies and by personal experience again and again. It`s my belief that almost nobody should be on these pills without also being in therapy. Most people would do better considering these non-pharmaceutical approachs to mental wellness first.

Oh 3bob, the stories I could tell you. It`s funny to find myself appearing like an apologist for the pharmaceutical industry because by temperment and natural inclination I am anything but. I`ve read some of the anti-psychiatry books and the arguments of their well-meaning authors are indeed convincing. Still, I keep coming back to my own experience. All I can tell you is that when my partner takes his meds he can go outside. When he takes his meds he can order his own green tea at a restaurant. He can get out of bed. He can laugh and play and feel like life is not a "living hell." Without meds none of those things are possible, and believe you me, we`ve tried. A few years back I tried to get him to go jogging in a park near where we lived. I asked him how it felt just to be out in the sunshine walking with other people around, and he told me it was like being stuck with ten thousand needles. Just walking was literally unbearable. So much for the jogging idea. I`ve looked long and hard for alternatives to medication. He`s had neurofeedback, therapy, countless herbs, massage. I`ve tried to cajole him to breath and meditate and do pushups. I`m tried and I`ve tried and I`ve tried till I was in need of mental health help myself. The only thing that has had a big and noticable impact has been medication. For him, medication works. I hope he doesn`t someday get tardive dyskinesia or diabetes or suffer some other malady as a result of his pills, but if he does I won`t feel it`s been a mistake. Psychiatry has allowed him to have a life worth living and for that I`m grateful. Your milage may, and probably will, vary.