liminal_luke
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Everything posted by liminal_luke
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The identity-less and purposeless thread
liminal_luke replied to CityHermit!'s topic in Forum and Tech Support
Even your picture gives you away, Apech. Does that look like a trustworthy cat to you? -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
Reading the opening post, I was struck by language that felt like depression to me. It`s a little disquieting to hear someone say that they feel without purpose and motivation, and my first impulse was to label that condition -- depression -- as a way of distancing myself from what those words bring up in me. Later, Spotless suggested that what Shad`s going through is actually a positive experience, a move toward awakening. Trunk also put this sense of purposelessness and loss of identity in a spiritual context. These posts led me to feel curious about the way I`d been so quick to think of what Shad is going through as pathological rather than growthful. I`m not sure any of us knows what`s happening for Shad. Perhaps some Bums have intuitive abilities or spiritual knowing that allow them to speak with certainty to the place Shad finds himself. I do not. While this thread did get semi-derailed for awhile, I feel that there`s been a wide variety of responses and opinions offered. My hope is that some of these responses will be of help to Shad. -
The identity-less and purposeless thread
liminal_luke replied to CityHermit!'s topic in Forum and Tech Support
That`s why you are so universally loved. -
The identity-less and purposeless thread
liminal_luke replied to CityHermit!'s topic in Forum and Tech Support
I got involved in the derailment of that thread too. At the same time, I thought that the OP had already received lots of good feedback reflecting a variety of viewpoints and didn`t see the turn the thead took as so bad. Usually when a person wants to end a certain line of discussion the most direct route is simply to walk away. That can also be the hardest thing to do, at least in my experience. Like many others, I like to get the last word. In this instance, CityHermit got the warning to back off. It never feels good to be warned but I think the mods might have equally warned any of us who were going on about the subject of the derailment. Nobody wanted to back off. Perhaps there`s more to be said in response to the OP. If so, the enforced cooling off in that thread is all to the good. Another thread about the place of social media in our lives sounds to me like an excellent idea. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
I`ll just relate my internal experience. After reading about CityHermit`s experience with his elderly dog I was going to post something wishing CityHermit and dog well, much as Fa Xin did. Then I read CityHermit`s seemingly negative reaction to these good wishes. I thought about how I would of felt if my well-wishes had been similarly rebuffed. (Answer: not good.) Then there arose this feeling of wanting to connect with Fa Xin and say some encouraging words in case he was feeling unsettled about the online interaction. There was also a feeling of hostility towards CityHermit for what I was judging as hurtful and antisocial behavior. In the end I said nothing to Fa Xin or CityHermit. I figured that Fa Xin might not have reacted in the sensitive way I would have, and in any case could likely take care of himself. In my estimation, CityHermit wouldn`t have been open to the negatively slanted words I might have offered. So there ya have it. A person might say that I need to spend less time on social media and cultivate deeper in-person relationships. They wouldn`t be wrong. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
I can`t know if Spotless`s take on this is the right one but it does have that certain feeling of rightness. Trunk`s as well. If this resonates with you, Shad, then don`t let us more externally identified folks get ya down. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
City Hermit, I`m a big advocate for in-person interaction too. In fact, I suggested that Shad find a real live human being to talk to. There`s really no substitute. Still, my life has been changed in so many positive ways because I`ve been open (well, somewhat open) to interacting with people on this forum. There are folks here who have been working on themselves in deep ways for years and I simply couldn`t find the same quality of insight, wisdom, and presence locally. Their example has sometimes inspired me to reach for my best self. (And sometimes they`ve helped me realize that I don`t need to reach quite so much. But that`s another story.) Of course there`s been plenty of bummer interactions along the way too. A few people don`t like me, much to my chagrin. Some even suggest that I should use these uncomfortable moments as a kind of spiritual food for my continued growth. Yeah, right. I don`t understand it either. Still, it`s usually pretty easy to separate what`s useful from what`s not. If you`re the kind of person who sees social media as an obstacle and prefers only "real" human interaction then you should absolutely follow that path. Some of us however have found friendship, support, and a spiritual companionship here. To me that`s valuable. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
Beautifully said. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
Consider the Dalai Lama. He`s the spiritual leader of an approach that favors letting go of attachments, and yet by all accounts he doesn`t appear to be lacking a sense of identity or purpose. Maybe he`s just not very good at meditation? Paradoxically, I believe that letting go of attachments ultimately strengthens identity and purpose, not the other way around. Our language lacks an easy way to describe what happens, how a felt sense of a solid self can coexist so harmoniously with selflessness. It`s also true that the spiritual path is rarely a straight slog up the mountain. There are usually switchbacks galore and sometimes you have to go down to go up. So how to know if one is simply facing a difficult but ultimately productive dark-night-of-the-soul experience...or has stepped off the path altogether? Perhaps this is where having a teacher could be helpful. -
Hi Selfgasm, As you can see from the responses so far, the word healer covers a lot of territory. You could take up massage therapy, acupuncture, nursing, or become a conventional medical doctor. I`m not sure that one kind of practice is more healing than another; more than anything it`s the attitude you bring to your practice that will determine your effectiveness. Whichever way you go, I think one often forgotten secret is not to neglect your own healing. Just as you invest in education and training to learn a particular discipline, it`s equally if not more important to invest in yourself. Your own sense of integration and wholeness well serve you will as you turn your attention to the needs of others. Perhaps you`re already off to a good start with this with your energy practices and meditation. LL
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Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
I love this! Sometimes I get caught in not-so-wise corners of this forum and forget about all the amazing advice and support we so freely give to each other here. In my capacity as an occasionally wise stranger, I`d like to give you, Shad282, one last suggestion: find someone wise and not so strange to sit at a table with you and listen to your story. Someone physically present in your real life. It`s not that real life people are likely to be wiser than us, just that there`s something so supportive about the physical presence of an actual breathing human being. By the way, I no longer believe you are depressed in the sense I meant in my first post. I don`t think you "need help" or anything like that. My sense is that you might be going through a deep process of values clarification and the things that meant something to you previously seem less meaningful now. So my suggestion about talking to a real person isn`t because I think you need therapy, although a therapist might be one such person. Rather, I think human beings do best when they feel accompanied and supported. We all do. Our culture is so gosh darn individualistic but our biology is built for relationship. What`s happening for you probably isn`t depression but it is an important transitional moment and you deserve wise embodied company as you go through it. Give yourself that gift. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
Maybe it`s not depression. I can`t know one way or the other, obviously, and am just throwing out a possibility for your consideration. If it doesn`t fit, feel free to disregard. I guess I`d ask about the feeling tone of the loss of motivation and desire. Is it light and airy? Spacious? Does the lack of attachment feel like relief, a burden that`s been lifted? Is there an accompanying sense of contentment and rightness to the universe? If so, then my observation is completely off-base and, well, congratulations. Or does the loss of motivation and desire feel heavy and energy-zapping? Do you find it hard to do things that previously interested you? Are you sleeping more or less than you used to, eating more or less? I don`t at all mean to imply that I know what`s going on for you because I don`t. Just throwing out an idea in case it helps. -
Identity-less and purposelessness dilemma.
liminal_luke replied to Shad282's topic in General Discussion
Hi Shad282, You talk about a loss of motivation to live and a feeling of uselessness. That sounds like depression to me. Sometimes the way we go about spiritual practice brings us down -- happens to the best of us. Or it might be that you choose a certain form of spiritual practice because you were already feeling down. In any case, it`s something to consider. It`s not necessary to be in a deep clinical depressed state before taking action; in fact, the sooner you do something proactive to better your mood, the better. If you agree that depression is something to consider there are so many ways you might go about helping yourself. There`s exercise and talking to a friend. Counseling and medication. Changes to diet. I`m sure you`ll know what`s best for your particular situation. -
That is amazing. I`m dumbstruck.
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Ummm...I don`t think so. The things that we can`t easily see and are oblivious of are not obvious at all. By definition. Seems to me they are precisely the opposite of obvious. You know what though, I suspect that your answer is in the spirit of the thread. Have you heard the story about fish and water? The fish, who spend their entire lives submerged in the water, don`t even know water exists. Since the water is such a constant in their lives they aren`t even aware of it. We might ask then...what is our water? What is the thing that we are so unceasingly immersed in that we are completely missing it? What is the thing that would be head-thumpingly obvious about our existence to another life form but that we`re too "in it" to see? My answer? Love.
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Our ability to experience contrast underlies our perception of pain and hunger and sadness and all the rest of it. In this sense you`re right: contrast is more primary than pain. To make this point, however, requires high-level reasoning ability; it`s something of an intellectual feat. Therefore, to my mind, it`s not obvious. When I think obvious, I think what is obvious to the organism itself. Take a four year old who burns his hand on the stove. If we ask him if he`s in pain, he`ll say yes. There`s no question. It`s quite obvious. He`s crying. He`s asking for his mommy. It hurts! But if we ask him if he`s experiencing contrast he`s apt to look at us a little funny. We`re psychologically sophisticated adults and we know he`s experiencing contrast, but he`s a little kid who hasn`t yet developed abstract thinking skills. Depending on how we want to define obviousness you may be right. However it`s not obvious that you`re right. Not to a four year old.
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Forgetting about power and depth, what cultivation systems are most clear and simple?
liminal_luke replied to thelerner's topic in General Discussion
@Integrated Great post. If we want to be, umm, integrated, shadow work is essential. There`s a tendency, I think, in spiritual circles to focus on going "up" in an unbalanced way. It makes perfect sense, of course. For most of us, there`s less pain as we go up and nobody wants to feel pain. But in this flight upward -- towards the light, and away from the darkness -- much of value is skipped over and remains unconscious or at least undigested. Rather than reaching for the heavens prematurely, we`d do well to get in touch with the wisdom in our bellies and lower centers. Perhaps your form of contemplative meditation serves this purpose for you. -
Forgetting about power and depth, what cultivation systems are most clear and simple?
liminal_luke replied to thelerner's topic in General Discussion
Hi Everything, Hope you don`t mind if I make a really nit-picky little point. My mom tells me meditation is not for her. She tried it and, when her mind didn`t go silent, she decided to knit instead. Her nuno felted scarves are beautiful. Still, I think she may have given up on meditation prematurely. The idea that a person isn`t doing it right if they continue to experience thoughts is an obstacle for many. Most people who put time in on the cushion continue to think. I think it`s not helpful to tell people just starting a meditation practice that their mind will become silent because that`s unlikely. -
Not to worry, Marblehead. If the question had been "what is most fundamental?" I`d go all wuji on ya.
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What is most obvious? I wish I could say "the void" was obvious but it`s not for me. Even awareness isn`t obvious, at least not if by awareness you mean "awareness of awareness." Those things might be ever-present. They might be primal and super important, but for me anyway they aren`t the most obvious. Here are some of my choices. Which one of these is most obvious depends on my environment at the time you ask. Hunger and satiation. Cold and heat. Pain. Basic feeling states: joy, sadness, grief, gratitude, fear, rage
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You are NOT qualified to critique a Spiritual Tradition if...
liminal_luke replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
I`m not privy to the Dwai`s mindstate and won`t speculate about the state of his ego. It`s true that the title of this thread initially put me off. Whenever anybody tells me I`m not qualified to comment on any subject my ego rears up and says "am so!" So right away the thread put me in a somewhat combative mood. Perhaps other people felt similarly? I will say that whenever I`m especially egotistical or pompous it`s usually because I feel hurt. This forum naturally attracts people who take spiritual practice seriously and hold the teachings of the lineage they follow sacred. When our perception is that other people are stomping on the traditions that may be the organizing principle of our lives, well, feelings get hurt. Intuitively, I think we all get this. At the same time, this is an open forum. People are free to say all sorts of foolish things. If you`ve been around here for any length of time, you know. People are also free to object to foolish things being said. In some ways, the forum isn`t so different from the real world. We often hope that people will treat us in kind, supportive ways and they often don`t. Wisely navigating through this sometimes rocky interpersonal domain is the work of a lifetime. -
You are NOT qualified to critique a Spiritual Tradition if...
liminal_luke replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
You have a brilliant way with ultimate wisdom, Bud. You come with a shiny sharp sword and slice away with loving, but also merciless, abandon. Your vision of unlimited love requires uncompromising truth. It`s a hard, beautiful thing. My approach to life - and perspective about Daobums -- is a softer one. Perhaps not as true and ultimately not as loving but softer. I offer it for those who are neither fools nor entirely wise but somewhere in between. And the crux of what I`d like to say is this: let`s be kind to one another. Yes, we have the right to say whatever we`d like about whatever here on Daobums. Or nearly whatever. But it would be lovely if we keep each other`s tender places in mind as we do so. Ultimately, everything and everybody is a teacher. People who heal from great trauma often talk about how thankful they are for their difficult experiences, because without them they would never have grown into their wisdom and loving maturity. And they are right of course. But let`s not go around breaking arms and expecting the wounded to send thank you cards. -
You are NOT qualified to critique a Spiritual Tradition if...
liminal_luke replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Of course Karen is right that people are free to discuss whatever they want. Of course Dwai and Steve are right that much of the discussion of spiritual paths comes from a relatively uninformed -- and often less than kind -- place. I would prefer it if people were less critical of other people`s spiritual paths in general, especially if they don`t have embodied experience following a tradition and are just talking from an intellectual point of view. Participating in a spiritual tradition is often entirely different than debating about it here. Take Buddhism for example. My experience of Buddhism here on the forum and in the "real world" is entirely different. When I practiced Buddhism (several vipassana retreats) it was so quiet and peaceful: we sat down, we were aware of our breath, we walked, we ate, we swept the meditation hall, we didn`t talk much. Maybe there was a dharma talk in the evening but it wasn`t such a big thing. Here on the forum it`s just the reverse -- no breathing, no walking, no sweeping the meditation hall, just a whole lot of talk, talk, talk. And not very peaceful talk at that. The posts I value are first-person accounts of practices that people have found helpful. If it was helpful to someone else, maybe it could be helpful to me. That`s interesting. All the rest of it -- people talking about why something else they haven`t really done isn`t any good -- I skip right over. -
I`ve not met Master Wang but several other Bums have (Silent Thunder, Taomeow) and they`ve said only glowingly good things about the experience.
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Life is short. I seem to have unlimited time to peruse Daobums but if other people choose to fill their time with a greater diversity of activities who am I to fault them? This board is inhabited in equal measure by benevolent geniuses and misanthropic (or perhaps misunderstood?) fools. The ignore function can be a way of steamlining the reading experience for those with other things to do. Each of us will no doubt choose whether and how to use it by ourselves. Windwalker has a point. A person could be totally open to reading all posts and use the disagreeable ones as food for inner growth. Here`s the thing about attachments though: Life has a way of providing it`s lessons and will do so regardless of whether we choose to ignore or not. Not everyone needs the kind of growth opportunities that offensive and wrongheaded posts can provide. Some of us get plenty of that kind of thing in our marriages.
