liminal_luke

Hi Rara, I`m mostly in total agreement about the bragging and the overdoing; normally, these things are signs of imbalance. At the same time, I wouldn`t want to make a Daoist rule because I think it`s all about context. Whose doing the bragging? How does the bragging fit in with the person`s overall psychology? There are cases where "bragging" is exactly the right thing to do, where it`s a move towards harmony....wu wei bragging, if you will. Take my mom, for example. She`s a very introverted, demure person. She never makes a spectacle of herself and shys away from anything she would consider bragging. Lately, however, she`s been coming out of her shell a bit. She`s been increasingly willing to let other people see all the good things she does, not to hide her abilities and talents. This is a move I wholeheartedly applaud! For her to attempt to follow a no-bragging rule would stunt this healing process of embodying herself more fully and being a powerful person in the world. I see "overdoing it" the same way. Mostly people tend towards too much overdoing and would do well to moderate their activities. Many of us have too much food, do too much exercise, too much Facebook...and on and on. And yet there are plenty of people who err on the side of over-caution, people who live overly strict and confining lives. For these people, a little "overdoing it" might be exactly the right medicine. Ideally, of course, we want to neither under nor over do things. But to get to that point some people will need to occasionally overdo things in order to eventually find their balance. Context is everything, and for this reason it`s hard to codify universal rules. For me, Daoism is about being in a centered place where I feel open and free so that I can spontaneously do what`s right in a given situation. Even if what`s right appears to be breaking the rules. LL

Yeah, the very idea of applying rules to situations sounds kinda anti-Daoist to me. Right off the bat, I`m questioning the list. Never brag? Never overdo it? Well, I guess that eliminates some of our very best Bums! (Not that I`m naming names.) If it`s un-Daoist to follow rules of thumb, it`s equally un-Daoist to rebel against them. (Luke goes directly to jail, does not pass Go, does not collect $200. That`s OK: he reckons jail`s as good as anywhere else for Daoist development. There`s lots to be learned from the rule breakers.)

On books vs. live teaching. I think it depends a lot on what you`re trying to learn. Where live teaching is indispensable, in my experience, is with really subtle movement practices like tai ji. My tai ji teacher used to have us hold a position and come around and make slight corrections. Sometimes he would adjust the position of my wrist or fingers by just a few millimeters and all of a sudden the energy connected, for lack of a better work, and I felt...well, I`m not sure what I felt but it was good. Now I`m not saying it`s impossible to learn any tai ji from a book or a dvd. It`s probably possible to learn a lot, especially if a person is good at thinking spacially and is kinesthetically talented. But at a certain point, the necessary adjustments are so subtle and specific to the individual learner that no video or book could cut it. Still, better a good book than a bad teacher. Other subjects are better suited to book learning. I think a person could learn lots of meditative techniques from a book, for instance. A few months ago, I was reading a forum about Master Wang Li Ping`s practice when all of a sudden -- boom. Something happened to me. I`m convinced I picked up on the energy of some practice just from reading about it. That kind of thing is probably pretty common. Even if a person doesn`t understand the words, the energetic signature of the practice is there in the book. Is that the same as attending a workshop or retreat? I`m sure it`s not, but it was pretty interesting just the same.

Another useful question: What exactly isn`t God?

I`ve just been skimming through this thread and didn`t realize there was any practice being discussed at all. Except, I guess, for the peacing practice Silent Thunder mentioned. (Beautiful!) Sounds like Daemon and I have a great deal in common since my spiritual practice consists almost entirely of getting together with people for Koffee Klatches. Great minds think alike and all that.

I`d like to echo Michael and Steve`s comments about community. Sometimes when we`re feeling bad the temptation is to move away from everybody. In the moment that can feel better, but the isolation ends up making things worse. So try not to cut yourself off from people who care about you. Maybe just get back to basics. If celibacy isn`t working for you let it go. Spending time in nature is great. No need to do any fancy spiritual practice, just do the basic things to take care of yourself -- being with people, eating well, some exercise or movement. You might have all sorts of thoughts about other people seeming to be effected by you. Like everybody else, you`re probably right about what other people are thinking sometimes and wrong sometimes. In any case, thoughts are just thoughts. You don`t have to take them too seriously. You might say to yourself...oh here I am again, thinking this thought. And then go on with your life. Just my two cents, LL

How about saying something like this... I am part of the circle of life. Just as I kill this ant, another creature may one day kill me. Death comes for us all. Knowing that I am not separate from life, not separate from the Tao, I will not hold myself apart from it. I gratefully surrender to the flow of life in all its squalid majesty. I am this flow. This ant that I kill is this flow, too. In every moment both of us are continually dying and continually reborn. We are that which dies and that which can never die -- and eternity pierces through every passing moment.

In my more balanced moments, I have a kind of faith that the information I need will reach me when I`m ready for it. In my less balanced moments (ahum), I imagine that my spiritual difficulties would evaporate if Taoist masters weren`t so darn stingy with secret techniques. It`s not true, of course. I know so many wonderful techniques, almost all of them not a bit secret, and they all work amazingly -- when practiced. Want a secret technique? Check out Michael Winn`s free ebook on the inner smile. You do have to sign up for his newsletter at healingtaousa but that`s a small bother for the gift of the inner smile. There are many, many more not-so-secret techniques shared here on this site and other places on the net. Perhaps the only secrets truly worth having are the ones we work for, the knowledge that opens up to us by following the path of practice. Maybe there are no secrets, just work yet to be done.

I agree with everything everybody has written about the usefulness of effortlessnes, of not trying, of getting out of our own way, releasing resistance. All of this is true. At the same time, it seems to me this is an advanced understanding. A sign of mastery in any endeavor is the ability to make it look easy. Easiness, effortlessness, grace -- these are qualities that a person develops over time, and almost always after putting in a great deal of effort. The highest spiritual practice is likely no practice at all. One simply drops all the impediments to awareness and hangs out in the resulting clarity and bliss. Why spend so much time doing anything -- following the breath, repeating the mantra -- when the point is simply to be? But if a few karmically-favored souls seem to slip effortlessly into effortlessness, most of us do not. We strive and strive before the recognition finally dawns that the answer isn`t striving. Yet it was only through our striving that the answer found us.

I took a course with Tenzin Wangyal Rinpocke online. Recommended. There`s another one coming up through Glidewing if you`re interested (glidewing.com). Think there`s some other threads around about lucid dreaming and such you might want to search for. ( My own experiences are less than spectacular but that`s not the fault of the practice. My impression from some others, and my own very limited experience, is that it`s a practice that for many develops very slowly over time given consistent practice . I haven`t -- yet -- put the required effort in. )

Inverse, I totally agree with you that it`s wise to be prudent about sexual expression, but, as a gay man, can I say that I think you`ve got us all wrong. I`ve never done anything that could be fairly described as "mimicking the heterosexual sex act of copulation," nor am I much of a magician -- neither black nor white. Alas. Also, I`ve met quite a few slutty people in my life (both heterosexual and otherwise) and very few of them have been schizophrenic. I do agree, however, that it`s possible to mess oneself up energetically having too much sex with the wrong people. Sexuality is a charged subject, for sure. My sense is that it`s the energy and spirit we bring to our decisions about sex that largely determine whether the outcome is healthy and life affirming. It`s possible to be erotically healthy having sex with people of the same gender or the opposite gender. It`s possible to be erotically healthy having sex with many people, just one, or none at all. It`s also possible to be sexually messed up doing any of those things. To really know whether a person`s eroticism is working for them, you`d have to know more than where they put what, in who, and how often. It`s a complicated question. If I get it more or less right for myself, I`ll consider myself good; everybody else can do what they want.

I`m not sure there`s a discrepancy between the flexibility of a blade of grass and the sturdiness of a mighty oak. Both beings are effortlessly being themselves, expressing in every moment their inherent nature. We might do likewise. Suppose I study Daoist internal arts for many decades. I teach my body to be soft and yielding while maintaining a certain energetic vibrancy -- not deficient or collapsed. Should circumstances demand, I`d be able to softly and gently pierce the heart of my energy with a sharp sword. Softness need not be passive. Indeed, maybe that`s the point: only from a place of extreme openness and relaxation can we harness our ultimate strength.

Wow!

I like this. Set periods of designated meditation practice and the appreciation of spontaneous periods of mindfulness. I`d argue that, for most of us anyway, this is the most natural and productive approach. This echoes instructions I`ve been given in an online workshop by Bon teacher Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche to include both formal and informal periods of practice in my day. One kind of practice isn`t better than the other. Indeed, the formal practice informs and deepens the informal -- and vice versa.

I disagree, sorta. It`s hard to argue with the suggestion of mindfully tuning into the Now on a moment by moment basis, but I`ll do my best. You see, not everyone is able and ready to hop on the love train of the eternal present from the getgo; some of us have to warmup with scheduled periods of meditation. That`s not a bad thing, even if it looks less than ideal from a certain exalted viewpoint. Starting out with a practice that is in some sense "contrived" or "going through motions" is part of many people`s process. Some of us take the slow scenic route up the mountain. I urge patience: we`ll get there.

If there`s something you`re doing that consistently makes you feel good and only good, you can be sure it has nothing to do with genuine spiritual growth. We all have our dark sides and if we are to blossom into full consciousness of our whole selves that darkness will have to be faced -- never a pleasant proposition. But does this mean that all the difficulties we encounter in our spiritual work should be toughed out and powered through? I say no. Readers of this board are in all different kinds of situations in their lives and there`s no single best answer. Many of us need to maintain a certain level of function to be able to work at our jobs and care for our families; not everyone has the economic or psychological wherewithal to flirt productively with debilitating depression or kundalini induced crackups. And another thing, not every painful experience is a road to integration and harmony. Plenty of them are merely dead ends. So how do you know what to do? This is where having an experienced teacher and supportive community come in handy.

I believe the I Ching can be profitably consulted about matters of destiny. Careful study can reveal patterns of energy that are unfolding presently and will influence outcomes in the future. But can it give you correct LOTTO numbers? Probably not. If you`ve got the karma to win millions in the lottery you can likely do it without the I Ching; if you don`t, the oracle won`t help. That`s my opinion anyway. Meditating by oneself is hard. Building (or buying) a retreat center so that anybody with a good heart and come and practice in community is harder. Managing something like that is like getting married times ten. Everybody is supposed to be "spiritual" so you`d think they`re be no problems, but people are people and there are always problems. Of course if that`s your dream then do it. Maybe running such a center is exactly the challenge you need to bring the best of what you have to give out into the world. It wouldn`t be for me, and I`m guessing the I Ching knows that. I don`t have spiritual community by the sea karma and no understanding of the forces of the universe, no matter how sophisticated or accurate, is gonna change that.

And can I get an Amen. Each of the above quotes make an important point. If you find yourself forcing, stop immeditely and do something else. Perhaps take up the "indirect path" Dwai recommends. To my mind, this means moving qi gung (just like Dwai said). Let movement do the work of moving the qi for you, so you`re not consciously doing it with your mind. You could take up Tai Ji, for instance. Any number of forms will spontaneously (and safely!) open up your energy. If you`re bound and determined to do the MCO as a meditation, here`s what I would do... (1) Accept that the upward flow is going to feel stronger for a long time to come. This is normal. (2) Don`t force the downward flow or expend any kind of super effort. Simply bring your consciousness to the points of the MCO on the way down and let the energy be whatever it is. If there`s just a trickle or a wisp or nothing at all, that`s perfectly fine. Just bring your attention and allow the qi to follow (or not) without getting caught up in whether or not you appear to be progressing. (3) Spend a long time at the end of practice focusing on the lower dan tien.

I`m no true-blue Buddhist, but seems to me you`re misapplying the concept of karma. OK, do no harm. I get that. But what about harm to yourself? You are entitled to your dignity, to be treated like a human being, to have reasonable boundaries about how other people are allowed to treat you. Allowing yourself to be mistreated out of fear of creating karma...creates karma. The secret isn`t to go all ninja on other people. You didn`t say much about your circumstances, but standing up for yourself likely doesn`t require hurting other people. Most of the time it`s not necessary to raise our voices, call names, break arms. It`s possible to be perfectly peaceful while radiating a loving don`t fuck with me vibe.

Reading some of this thread I remembered a poem by Yehuda Amachai I`d like to share... Forgetting someone is like forgetting to turn off the light in the backyard so it stays lit all the next day But then it is the light that makes you remember. Yehuda Amachai

I think the best way to learn about the five elements is to embody them. To go beyond simply learning the relationships to feeling the energies. How does liver energy (wood) feel different from kidney energy (water)? It sounds esoteric until you do it (or at least it would to me) but once you know the feeling it stays with you, as embodied knowledge. How could one learn such a thing? I think there are lots of ways. I learned through the practices of the Healing Tao, Master Chia`s stuff as filtered through the teaching of Michael Winn. The basics -- inner smile, healing sounds. Fusion of the five elements. But I think any practice that gets a person working with these elements and feeling them in their own body would do it.

I hope you`re wrong and fear you`re right. Of course we have to do the thing that saves lives (how could we not?) but I`m so discouraged that it`s come to this. I remember going up to the bank teller as a kid, a real person who was standing behind the counter across from me -- no plexiglass. Nowadays it`s all bars, walls, and locks. There`s something so inhuman about it. The increased mental health services solution seems so much more joyful. Let`s take care of people so they get help before they start shooting. Let`s come together as a society and support each other through the rough patches in life. It`ll take money and commitment. It seems to me this approach isn`t very popular these days. When spiritual forums presumably frequented by mature adults often turn into verbal war zones, what chance do our public schools have? Still, it`s the only truly viable,, truly human, option.

Hi Hannes, I just want to echo what Apech said about mood issues and thyroid problems -- they go together. It`s medically complicated stuff and not every doctor will be inclined to order the right tests or interpret them properly. We are physical beings and what might seem like an emotional or spiritual problem (and is of course in some larger sense), can often be resolved by getting the physical part of us well-regulated. This goes double when the disregulation is anything "thyroid." Just my two cents. LL

I`ll settle for meeting any ole sage. Taoist practice and philosophy is strictly optional. Meeting sages is like visiting Yosemite; there`s the possibility of feeling profoundly moved by the awesomeness of nature , even human nature. If you have the opportunity to meet a sage, I heartily recommend it. Years ago I saw a Hasidic Jew singing quietly to himself as he walked down the street in Jerusalem. There were lots of Hasidim around so that in itself didn`t mean much...but there was just something about this guy. I knew he had it and I didn`t even know what it was. I even followed him for a block or so, like a spiritual stalker, just to stay in his presence. I think there`s something about sagehood that transcends philosophy and religion as they are normally understood. A sage is a sage and I believe they exist within all sorts of spiritual traditions and communities -- and also apart from all specific traditions and communities. ( I wouldn`t swear to it --it`s hard for me to pick up the vibe online - but I think there are even a few lurking around this forum from time to time. ) I like to think that sages from different traditions, Christian and Jew, Buddhist and Taoist, could recognize each other, wink at each other with their third eyes across the dinner table so to speak. But even sages are human and that kind of openness is probably too much to ask for. You know that old saw about sages? It takes one to know one. We recognize a sage with our own sagey eyes. There`s the power in softness and the softness in power. There`s love. But they don`t so much show us their virtuous qualities as illuminate our own. LL

What Happened? Two long-term Bums, Brian and Taomeow, appear to have left TDB after their character was besmirched by another Bum in the Trump Talk thread. (Or perhaps they are merely on temporary leave? Time will tell.) In one case the besmirching happened at the hands of someone opposed to Trump; in the other, at the hands of a Trump supporter. Who do we want to be? I believe we`ve come to a critical juncture as a community, a point where we need to make some hard decisions about the future of the board. It seems to me there`s a human cost to having an off-grid mosh pit of sorts where people are given free rein to elbow each other to the ground with minimal staff intervention. There are so many places, both on-line and in real life, where we can talk politics, and so few places free of such talk. So many places where people can malign each other freely, and so few places where peace and harmony prevails. I think it`s time we return to doing what we do best: discussing spirituality. Please note: I don`t mean to comment negatively on the way the board is being moderated and administrated. Staff has a hard job, and I`m not eager to join their ranks.