Trunk

*ouch!, responding to my own post* (a little narcissism for a Saturday morning) One of the things that came up at 'a previous' forum, years ago, is that ren (the front channel of the m.orbit) is shown as running up in all of the Chinese medical texts. Obviously, us qi gongers are typically taught to run it down. Some sources in the Chinese medical community say that it runs both ways. My opinion is that not only is a version of kan & li embedded in the kunlun method, but also a version of the orbit that is truer to the body's actual functioning.

My experience is that the hand position prompts the vitality (jing, essence) of the hara to ping-pong up and down the front, amongst the lower and middle (heart) centers. A kind of kan & li, which we all know sweetens vitality into bliss. Once it's sweetened enough, it becomes less stingy and spontaneously unsticks from the hara and flows (mostly down and) deeper into the body. Yummy.

I was recently told of The Crocodile and the Crane (link). I haven't read it, but I know that the author has extensive authentic internal arts training (& teaches).

-- later edit -- warning: This method has aggressive results. Watch out. Read the whole thread first. ---------------- Some time back I saw Plato's two blog-posts on using a ball to work on ren (the front channel of the orbit): - How to Open the Front Channel of the Microcosmic Orbit - Training Method Refinement #1 I finally drove up to Sport's Chalet and picked out a couple of rubber balls. What I got were Mikasa playground balls P500 and P700 (5" and 7" in diameter). Cost me less than $10 total. (They can be ordered online, btw.) These are the soft, air filled, bouncy balls. Considerably softer than the one that Plato was using in his post, I think, and the practice took an interesting turn because of that. Basically, I got in some variant of push-up position, and experimented with using a ball to massage the whole front of the torso - from the top of the sternum to the top of the pubic bone. The first day I went for the gut, would roll on the ball, also rest into it and breathe. Immediately, clearly, obviously helpful. Really good belly massage. I was impressed, and it put me through some stuff. The second day I experimented with the sternum, and it got really interesting. I could bounce on the ball, with my hands and knees still in support, and this is a soft ball but still resilient enough to offer resistance, ... so, I'd bounce with enough pressure to flex my rib-cage, but just real moderate about it (not gonzo maniac like Plato's description in his post ). I thought, "wow, that was cool", and figured I was opening up the sternum area for the front channel of the orbit (which I was), but that was just the beginning... As the day went on, the effects I felt (from the morning session only) progressed. Definately some of it was detox. Uncomfortable tension pain (not like injury pain), heat. But there was really, really interesting pleasurable stuff mixed in. I could feel that I'd really flexed my whole rib-cage, that my ribs - the bones - had received a gentle rhythmic flexing massage, and I was feeling new circulation. An hour or two goes by and I realize (feel) that my thoracic vertebrae (connected to ribs) also got a massage, and that there's new circulation in my sternum, front channel, ribs, and thoracic section of my spine. A few more hours go by, and I feel my whole rib-cage pulsing along with my whole spine! The whole thing, top to bottom, along with the rib-cage, like the ribs and spine are one thing, doin' this happy slow jig together! There was definately discomfort present along through the whole process, partly release of heat, so I drank a lot of water throughout the day, ate fruit, and went swimming in the evening. Slept well, felt really good the next day. Thanks! to that rude a###### Plato for the blog posts. Trunk

This is only worth talking about, imo, because it is part of a pattern at your school. Seems to me that everyone likes the method, that people on the inside have a fun time, but that there are consistent skirmishes around the perimeter. What has gone on in this thread is typical of (at least a substantial part of) those skirmishes. imo, If you could get new insight into the dynamic of this thread - and somehow change the angle of your approach, it would substantially diminish the rough edges. My opinion is that because this conversation is typical of the difficulty, it has opportunity. Two of the issues that needlessly make your school a target are: 1. too much sensationalism, and 2. dealing with scholars. As I keep saying, I think that with some minor adjustments some of these problems would just disappear. I think that at least some of those that you mischaracterize as some variety of asshole actually are just frustrated brainiacs. My suggestion re: this is quoted below. Maybe worth something, maybe not. Could be that I'm simply off on all of the above; it happens. On a related topic, as I've said before, my opinion (fwiw, everybody has to make their own) is that Lama Max is extraordinarily developed, and I personally think that criticisms around that are mistaken. My observations to back up that opinion: - During the workshop it was clear to me that he had the tissue-changing practices deeply in his body. (Fascia, tendon changing, opening and closing of the joints, almost certainly the marrow washing but I can't really see that deep so I can only say %99 on that because of everything else. To get those anywhere near his level takes many years of correct practice). I know because I've hung out with an extremely accomplished internal martial artist, and you learn to see (some of) the body differences. So, as far as Taoist physical body changing (whether or not he got it from a Taoist system), it is just obviously there to me. - Personally I didn't feel any of his energetics during the seminar, but during the private - as we were talking about the nuts and bolts of meditation (which he is quite capable of doing) - he would access the states & maneuvers that he was talking about. Not showy, and not even intended to be shown I don't think; I think it was just natural for him to at least somewhat manifest the states~maneuvers as he mentioned them. I've sat in schools where the whole method was to meditate on the teacher, and it was unmistakable - to me - that he was fluent with Deep Foundations. Like I said, I felt nothing (of his emanations) during the seminar, but I'm far from being able to feel everything - and I assume that he simply wasn't employing the energetics that I'm familiar with feeling at that time. So, that's my basis of opinion that he's developed. Maybe it'll compensate some for the raucous I'm generating otherwise. I'm tired with this. Taking time off. May we all be groovy with time.

Let me also say this. I think that the inherent standard ettiquette of being a dharma concierge ... the level of the basic virtues (patience, etc.) demanded by that role, is far beyond that of normal human behavior. It's a big leap. The repurcussions of activity are so broad that your personal emotions become relatively irrelevant. To actually employ that perspective on a consistent basis is formidable, but it's part of the job. I've seen teachers and their main-pillar-helpers and it's like *gulp*, it's a hard road. There's patience, and then there's patience-in-a-public-dharma-role-connected-to-active-dharma-power. It's a different thing altogether and my point is that it is practically demanding. Finding skillfull means of minimizing wear and tear becomes not a luxury, but a basic survival skill. imo, some aspects of you promo style are over-abundant, and it makes you a target. I think if you'd relax more, say less, ask for more support ... (example: ) you know, some of the contentious parts of this thread were about "scholarly explanation". You could've said, much earlier, "I don't think I have the sort of explanation you're looking for, maybe you guys will come up with something in the next year or so". I would've thought (and I bet most people here would think), "wow, cool, that guy is humble" and we'd all be on your team to help. Over the next year or so this community would say all sorts of witty stuff about your method (which will happen anyway), but it'd be like we're doing it together instead of fractured by hostility. A third the effort, much better result. There are some (seemingly) simple turns like that that'd make things easier for everyone. Or maybe I have it all wrong. It's often hard to tell what is what, and if something is an easy fix or an entrenched permanence. God bless us all. Part of this is that the social context of TTBs is a level playing field. That's what's so fun and functional about this community, what it's about in a lot of ways. A fact with you is that you are presenting a view of a school, so your role is more speaker than listener. In TTBs context it comes off partly that you're full of yourself. If you had your own forum it would be more natural and appropriate: people would come there to get the view of that school. Not that you wouldn't also always be welcome to come by here and annoy us.

Chris, You have many good attributes, I basically feel and think that you're a good guy, and that you're doing fundamentally good work here: the method is a gem, imo Max is unusually accomplished, etc. What I find annoying is that you are over-enthused to the point that you're not employing your ability to listen enough. Not able to relax and be just one of the guys here (and I'm talking only about this venue). You are so on a mission that it's over-bearing. (All that is what I meant by the "born-again Christian" reference.) The method is a sweet one, and I think if you took it from 4-5th gear down to 2nd & 3rd more often .. this whole thing would take off better, with less effort. I do find that the scholarly explanation is not your strong suit. It doesn't have to be, you could be more often modest on that part (which you occasionally are). Add to that there is so many highly sensational esoteric claims, that then you have to back up in conversation - it's too big a load. I think you should just be more sensitive to when you should go out on an esoteric intellectual branch or not. Personally, I think the beauty of this method is the simple, less sensational: basic harmonious blending, gradual healing. The sensationalism does irritate me. My opinion is that there's plenty of wildly esotericly exotic goings on, genuinely. But at the same time I feel like there's more than twice as much song and dance as there needs to be. Then that gets tangled with the scholarly sketchy parts and that's when I get frustrated. I think that at least half of the people who get frustrated with the presentation have a more serious & scholarly temperament. (Not that your group isn't great, healing and fun, for those that naturally groove with it.) And that you've not yet taken to the art of turning "mildly frustrated critics" into "constructive critics who are on your side". But that is a demanding art (patience, etc.). But you are currently turning critics into mild enemies. People are starting to throw their lunch fruit. Somehow I get the feeling that if - in several ways - you put in half the effort you could go a third further, with much less wear and tear. Anyway, I've got no summary, and I'm not sure that anything I wrote has a point. Hopefully it does, I'm too tired to re-re-read it. (But I probably will .. ) Keith

Yee-oowwww! mbanu!!, good to hear from you! Long time, where have you been???

Red Phx is an upper center practice - I assume it's ok to say that much. I haven't been told the dangers explicitly, but I'd assume it'd be typical of powerful upper center practices: risky if you haven't yet got a good anchor. Kunlun level 1 (by my experience, not by anything I've been told) has a lot to do with harmonizing the essence (which has a lot to do with "anchor"), that's why it's "1" (I assume, haven't been told, but that's the typical Taoist way).

Yup.I've been saying that so simple that it'll only take you 30 seconds to learn, if you read it three times. The posture brings a lot of things together energetically, with sweet results. Nope.

It'd be a lot easier to participate, like, support your efforts if you didn't have the attitude of a born-again Christian. The personality issues seem entrenched, unlikely to change. On that basis there'll be unending skirmishes at the perimeter of your school, and around you here at TTBs. Have you considered making your own forum? Here, your playing at sheriff is a joke, but if you had your own place you could actually impose your own rules. Less annoyance for you, less for us.

That's my observation as well. If you strip away any attitude/rudeness, xeno's basic point is that there hasn't been a clear explanation of kunlun's mechanics, "how it works". I'd agree - that's a weak point in their presentation. Maybe, over time, the red phx crew will improve along that line. Maybe. But, you know what?: every school has it's strong and weak points. That's the pedestrian reality of it. Part of being an efficient student is to learn to see the "shape" of a school - what it is offering, what it isn't, how to make best use, not to try and get what isn't there, etc. (If you choose to interface at all.) Seems to me that the basic conclusion (experience of a number of seasoned members) of the community re: the kunlun method has been very positive, regardless of whether there is a good explanation of it. Learn it in a snap, rapid results, costs ~$15. Take it or leave it, that's what you've got to go on.

Probably not as marketable as ones that you can feel a lot. Still, some of the video and written testimonials re: the exercise plates seem interesting. It'd be nice if the vibe motors progress so that there are from super-fine-marrow settings to surf-ride-on-choppy-seas.

I agree (mostly, I think). I could be wrong, but I think that Hundun's use of "liberated" is maybe the opposite of the excessive ego expression of the table-carver. Part of the problem of the mystic personality is that spiritual states are so powerfully absorbing, disolving of ego, and mostly solitary in experience. Almost all of the psychological basis that %99.99 percent of people use to socialize goes away for varying periods during meditative absorption. It's very pleasurable, spacious, and compelling. From those spaces the usual human psychological hub-bub becomes very disinteresting. It's a not-unusual challenge for many (adults included) who go through the process that relating to others is .. a stretch, let's say. Solitary, inward, quiet, and a long term adaptive challenge of relating to others. I certainly have experienced my own version of this, not everyone does - but it's not uncommon on the mystic path. Besides the maybe confusion over the use of "liberated", Hundun's was the most clear explicit statement of that sort of thing that I've ever heard. Where do you get this stuff?

Snow Lion Newsletter Fall '07 online (html and pdf)

The other side to this... I think I'm still recovering~correcting from incorrect practice in which the perineum was seen as "bottom", which excluded the legs and earth. I've made similar mistake where I "seal off" the lower abdomenal area in lower ab. breathing. I see the lower ab. now more as a train station: there might be more trains in it, but there are still trains coming and going. My experience is that the slight hold like that, really almost just an attention thing that activates the tissue almost secondarily, does a lot to connect hui yin to the soles of the feet and earth, and the gravity of that connection pulls down heaven. A good thing, imo.

...

That it increases bone density is impressive to me. When I got interested in this topic some yrs ago it was a derivative of exploring marrow washing. I'm just not up to wacking myself with wires on a regular basis. The purpose of which is to vibrate the marrow. Plus, for my personal situation, it'd be really helpful to not have to work out so long just to warm up. These couple of vids are impressive, especially the 2nd one. Y5cNcskVL5w YhBKulu8HBU ~ later ~ This last one on stretching... jf3E8vurb24

Impressive.

She does a great job. Such rich stories.

How long of a session does it take to get whole-body circulation going? Do you have the soloflex, or other brand? It seems that the low padded bench layout lends itself to a wider variety of positions, exercises.. Is there a favorite exercise/s that you have on it?

There's a related article in the January 2001 National Geographic magazine, called "Surviving in Space". Bone density loss is a big deal for astronauts, and a guy was doing experiments by putting turkeys on a vibrating platform. ~ later ~ Wow!, how cool would that be?!? Stand on a vibrating platform for 15 minutes a day and melt away fat and build bone density! (And I think the vibration is so low you can't feel it?, or maybe can barely feel it.) For anyone middle-aged on out, that could be really cool. Especially as you get more towards elderly, bone density loss is a really big deal. ~ later later ~ I looked up "vibrating platform" on yahoo, and there are bunches of articles etc. Turns out there are also platforms for sale from amazon (link) and from soloflex (link). The soloflex "whole body vibrations" (WBV) looks the most versatile and is the cheapest. I'd be curious if others find other products, comparison.

Ok, coolest project ever: Several nerds got together, put together a space balloon with cameras and video. Took about a month, about $1,000. Check it (link).

Inspiring. Welcome.