Trunk

Happy day, Sean!

Welcome, Emm. Beautiful avatar, and signature artwork. Trunk

He was making a funny! (.. his point: indicating his level of disbelief.) I'm in it for the uniforms, the once-a-week Sons of Lao Tzu meetings, and the parades twice a year.

Just a "heads up", for those of you who didn't catch the earlier thread.. that is sort of the early part of this discussion... Thanking other beings and calling on them * we will now continue with our regularly scheduled programming *

I'll pitch in another 2 cents to that kitty. Ouch. As far as honest atheists, I really like Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" (scroll down to the speaker icon, click it - after a minute or so of intro, Julia starts in). She's sweet, funny, intelligently introspective This might be a bit quirky for a theist to say, but I think that it's more important for people to be honest with their own experience (and honestly allow for that to change, as it will) than it is for them to agree with what I might think is truth. If I'd never had a spiritual experience, I wouldn't be theistic... maybe I would allow for the possibility of theism if I did some readings of mystics, but that'd be a real stretch. Religion just sounds so blatantly silly.

I'm pretty lost when it comes to acupoint names; I've worked more on pathways, and places, without knowing the Chinese medical names. Some various moving qi gong exercises (that I learned locally, in person) have helped me articulate the spine and connect some areas. (Also, of course, the things we're discussing here, and archived at AlchemicalTaoism.) I use two old tennis balls in a sock; they're softer. (My pop is a tennis buff, and he happened to have some old ones in a cupboard.) Also, four socked balls sometimes when I want less pressure. Directions diagram here, down some on the page. I definately go sections at a time. Sometimes bracing myself with my elbows on the ground. I don't see any point in doing it in one sweep; not enough time to be sensitive to the process and massage.

You're definately onto something major, here, though you're conclusions need polishing. It's a tricky and deep area, and worth long term study. I see it as related to the endocrine system, the nerve plexuses, and the energetic centers. Seven chakras are too much for me to sort out, so I usually take a reference of what I feel to be the three major: wisdom, love, power. (Upper, middle, lower.) Here's one reference, "center based shen theory". Also, the Gurdjieff people get really into this, and Ouspensky's The Fourth Way talks about it. I think that a lot of neurosis are a result of the centers being too far out of agreement. And, yup, has huge implications for things going awry with the sexual practices. - and I don't think it's been sufficiently, accurately, seriously enough addressed by... anyone, that I know of. All this to say, You've hooked a whopper of a topic.

Touching post. Appreciated.

AlchemicalTaoism.com is a mix of my own essays, plus archived "greatest hits" from this community (somewhat biased by the fact of my choosing), compiled over the last 6 yrs +. Though it's way too extensive for a single read, it's a good intro to the progressive work that's been going on in this discussion community, re: theory and practice. (Of course, everyone has their favorite resources, and this is just one suggestion.)

There's a general cycle of taking doses of purity into one's system, refining turbid energies and patterns, and coming to a new place of stability. Then repeat. The problem with going too fast is that a critical mass of pure energy is reached too quickly, at some point kicks in and accesses more profound states and energies than one's system is able to integrate with stability. Too much dispersing force and not enough integration. Psychological aspects rest on one's spiritual structure, and common results of "too fast" are psychological disruption, and dispersion of physical energies, health collapse. Usually it takes decades to repair from such an episode. Despite what some popular sources say, there is a lot more to the safety of this process than "opening the orbit". A somewhat slower pace, with a lot of work towards "preparing the vessel", pays off. Over the course of a lifetime, much more progress is made, with less wear and tear. In addition to the link that Michael noted, this resource is loaded with related stories: Kundalini Survival & Support Also, here's one interpretation of the golden flower process (link).

btw, the two basic things that I've gotten from deity interactions: 1. Grace - that is, a flow or radiance of high quality vibe. 2. An example of pure body cultivation, that my body learns from. I've never gotten words, nor 'conversation' about topics. For me, I think, that would be cumbersome - I have difficulty enough keeping track of my own mind, adding another voice in there would be further confusing, I think. -- later edit -- No disrespect meant towards those that have other sorts of interactions, that's just how it is for me.

Big part of it right there, "overcoming the reluctance". For me, in both the cases I'm thinking of, I was studying with teachers that I respected. The first one gave a printed mandala for meditation, with a mantra. It's not something I previously was interested in, and really had no (like, zero, lol) preconception nor expectation that anything would happen. But, I was in the group and - as I said - I respected the teacher, so I tried it out as he said. Things happened, and I was "wow, ok, there's something to this". But it still took a variety of experiences, over the years, for me to really get the idea as "my own", not just something I was doing as part of participation. Another teacher, years later, similar. There was a ritual that took considerable work, in preparation, and - really, honestly - I had zero interest in ritual. Thought it was empty, dry. But, I liked and respected the teacher so... I worked, and participated, only out of respect for him, again, really zero interest in ritual. It turned out to be one of the most intense experiences of my life. Utterly grateful. All of that was contrary to my prior western culture mental conditioning, critical thinking, mind-set that our culture tends to identify with science. It's not like I grew up in India, and I guess I had some typical male mental stubbornness of world-view, masquerading as sharp savvy. I realize that it's more "onward, through the fog!", out here on our own. You don't have to believe, belief is not a prerequisite, ime. Preconceptions and preconditioning, however you show up, that's what it is, and is honest. The opening is just that you have to be willing to experiment. And be open for whatever does or doesn't happen. That's an honest approach. Trying to believe, when you don't actually, is not needed, and is - as you mentioned - disingenuous. That sort of "faith" is counter-productive, imo, and contradicts the integrity of being true to one's own experience. Willing to experiment, willing to admit the possibility of new, as yet unknown, experience (which may or may not happen), that's different, honest, worth while, potentially (not garunteed) fertile ground. A note re: science, btw. The crux of science is not "I already know everything that's going to happen", but experimentation and receptivity to results (whatever they might be, plenty of failed R&D out there). Hope I haven't been verbose. Keith

Yeah, I do. Ring a bell, (sometimes offer veg. food), wave incense, ring a bell again. Mantra. I was an atheist as a youngster, thought it was all hooey, and was pretty strict at each step of convincing - so there were many steps that got me to this place, and I've had some of the same concerns as you. I'm not interested in projecting~imagining and, ime, it's pretty easy not to. Classically, and practically (including mundane areas of life), many of the most beneficial learning experiences are a result of "keeping good company", ... ime, this is a very worth while avenue of exploration, despite how silly it may seem at first.

Really nice to have medically-trained about. Welcome!

Definately the rubber balls are helping with that (in a big way), and that is part of my view. Over the years a lot of other things get included as part of the path, and the emphasis of the mco in relation to other things shifts around. But, yup, it's definately part of what I'm getting from the rubber ball work. I guess it brings up the topic, "what's the view of the path?", and that is just such a huge topic... Even looking just through the prism of the HT system, this rubber ball stuff addresses a lot. Orbit, iron shirt, marrow washing, organs, ... I added the italized words for clarity. I've been using them all on the floor, so for me the floor issue is the same for all of them (except that I find the wooden roller works best with yoga mat underneath it, the rubbery tack keeps it from sliding around). I find that playground ball and socked-tennis-balls are both much more accessible than the wooden roller, for working on the spine. Mostly, for me, because the wooden roller is somewhat painful. I've dropped the wooden roller in favor of the others on account of that, but I'm a middle aged guy with a few extra pounds; it might be different for some of you young whipper-snappers. For me, in order of increasing intensity for rolling up & down the spine: - mikasa playground balls, larger -> smaller (mostly the smaller) - socked-tennis-balls, 4 -> 2 The smaller playground balls, rolled directly on the spine, are pretty interesting and effective. And the 2-socked-tennis-balls are as intense as I want to go (I use the 4 more often). -- later edit -- The smaller playground balls are also effective to lie on & massage the sacrum: it not only massages, also engages the muscles immediate to the sacrum.

Massage the back (link).

Agreed that this is a strong practice, even just the rolling around. I feel pleasurably strong during and right after rolling, and also sometimes find that later (often the next day) I have detox going on, such as abundant dreaming, psychological dredging, and physical lethargy-detoxy feeling. For me, ball-rolling is definately not an every-day practice, and I try to do kind circulating things on the day/s after (swimming, running, any kind of cardio exercise, stretching, drink lots of liquids). btw, Somehow I feel that doing regular swiss ball exercises during the off days actually help recover from the "rubber-ball massages" .. something about "doing" (exercising the muscles) as a remedy for "getting done to" (getting massaged by the balls). Especially since swiss ball works the various core muscles so directly. I'm still experimenting with how this all works together. (Also, a plug for Adam Ford's "Swiss Ball Abs & Core" dvd: excellent!) While the "rubber ball massages" have significant differences from iron shirt packing, there are similarities, and I think Michael Winn's statement has application here: Give yourself as many days in between sessions as you need in order to process. The detox pattern is very similar to way-back-when I was experimenting with the iron shirt stuff on my own, including jing practices, with hitting. (Except I feel that the rubber balls are much safer, much less injury-prone.) Definately the smaller balls deeply massage tissues and organs. Jing circulation and integration is noticably easier, natural. Agreed that we are onto something. It is a lot of fun rolling around on those balls! This one is silly and strong. -- later edits -- Point taken. ~~~ another safety-valve for this work: Distal acupressure.

my only one, and I could use a 2nd: The Dilbert Blog

I'm getting a lot from just playing, as well. You can change direction by pausing on top of the ball and moving your legs to a different direction (like from feet facing wall 'X' to wall 'Y'). That way you can work around a sorta-square in a limited space. I am not of the "healing through trauma" school, and think it's generally faster, more effective, and produces much more stable results if you work with a gradual, well-round approach. (Don't hurt yourself.) Just my 2 cents.

It's been about a month since my first post on this thread, and I've been experimenting. My current thinking is that "bouncing the front" is somewhat advanced, a little crude, and can bring up too much tension if you don't have a number of other things in place. (Such as a good back massage device, and a more moderate over-all experience with rolling around on the balls.) Still, "bouncing the front" (imo) is a good method, just I wouldn't present it as a "first single thing on its own" next time. Way to go! (And, sorry to hear about your elbow, hope it heals up well.) Variety is good, with the balls, and there's lots of room to play (and is a great starter!). The smaller balls give a deeper massage, the bigger ones better for rolling around, and the swiss ball for more structured exercises - they're all good. Some years ago, on the HT board, someone (who was that guy?.. I've forgotten) described how iron shirt packing flooded the tissues with blood, and was so crucial for jing gong. I argued that the packing techniques were dangerous for people with stagnation, cause the packing tended to force tension deeper into the channels & tissues. (For people with open channels & tissues, like him, it worked great.) It's my current experience that playing with, rolling around on, these pliable balls relatively safely and very effectively (both much more so than IS packing) accomplishes that goal of IS packing: massages the tissues and organs, circulates blood, opens the channels. This is so important as a complement for any of the aroused practices, because the main danger of saving aroused jing is that it tends to cause heat and stagnation everywhere, which must be processed and resolved, or you're f###ed. -- later edit -- I mean, think about it: I can put my whole body-weight (minus feet, & maybe hands, for stability) on one of these balls, and roll all over my torso as much as I want, any time I want. That's a pretty strong massage (and a work-out to boot). I can't afford the time & $ to get a massage that often, and it is so healthy!

Please clarify (for those of us who don't already know what that means).

The common situation.

See Sean's post on this for descriptive links.

Since Spectrum mentioned, I've tried the above, and - for me - it's a preferred version of the wooden back roller. I love the results from the wooden back roller, but I don't like using it - it's kind of hard for this old body to roll on. So, I'm switching to two old tennis balls in a sock: Old tennis balls have enough give, so it's not "yikes, ouch" all the way down, and the width is pretty much exactly the same as the back roller (and much cheaper!). From experimentation, I really consider some sort of back massage as a required companion if I'm going to be "bouncing the front" - it just really opens the channels to let any stress process around, which can sometimes otherwise get uncomfortably stuck.