Trunk

new related thread: bagua practice dangers, safety tips.

new thread: bagua practice dangers, safety tips.

disclaimer: This is all imho, ime. Nothing more official, not representative of anyone else. I kind of see it the opposite way. None of it looks effective martially, to me, unless/until a fairly high level of internal integration (health) occurs as a result of the practice. To me, even in the clips I posted, I see mostly health, emotional, and qigong integration. Open hand strikes, for example. Usually you'd slap (vs punch) someone when you *don't* want to hurt them. Also, the body positions in the DGS system: they tend to very open and extended. Unless you have a *lot* of internal development to back that up, in a fight I think they'd leave me *more* vulnerable. *BUT* I am getting a lot of healing out of them, and energetic integration out of them so I am really enjoying them - find them valuable for those reasons. Martially effective? I'm not at that level yet.. and am actually not interested and wouldn't be studying this system if it were mostly martial. (And I do know that some other people do have a martial level of development; I'm just speaking for myself here.) Click on the link in my signature that says "bagua qigong"; it starts at 8m??s. That is relevant. Some similarity, overlap, re: reverse breathing. There are more parts to the breathing than shown in the sample clips. A number of the practices are gentle and address sensitivity to the spine especially (ex.s, the first standing posture in the video, also dragon rolls over). There are a number of videos where he either talks about opening up the spine so that you're not grinding the discs and/or gives you exercises that do that. The ankles I don't see at much risk. The knees are tricky, and I see them as the point most-at-risk in bagua in general. I vaguely remember that there are some tips about the knees in heart-of-bagua, but I'd have to review and look for that specifically. While there is specific footwork instruction (a lot on mud stepping), and some on some other specific footwork (ex. T-step) I do think that "bagua: dangers" is an interesting topic and could be a good thread here at TTBs (a number of people here who could comment on this topic w/ much more bagua experience than I). I don't know of any DGS video that goes through all those points in a single section of video. Sometimes during his presentations I am watching his footwork and imitating, and also think I'd like it if he talks about it more specifically more often. If a person has *real* spine or knee injuries, that's another thing (and mostly out of my territory to comment at all). A friend of mine, her knees are *totally* shot, my advice to her: don't do bagua circle walking, wrong practice for her. Also, I think that in the internal arts (qigong etc) a student's own sensitivity is really important. Of course that does *not* negate the responsibility of those teaching to guide well. It's a balance.

Vibrating and whipping palms has already been mentioned several times in this thread, I'm sure, but here's the promo clip that recently came out about it:

I had a conversation w/ Sifu Matsuo. These two iron cloth (shirt) videos are very different, both favorites. Now part of an "iron cloth 2-for-1 package": from the yt description:

People vary, a lot. Standard idea that for the same herb/supplement: for some it will benefit, others nothin', others contraindicated. And certainly after a period of time the supplement will have addressed whatever difficulty it's gonna and dramatic results will diminish, perhaps there is more one could get out of it if you retry after weeks/months. On my 2nd day I passed a slew of tiny gallstones, on my 6th one larger one. Even if nothing were to happen from here on out, I'm happy. Curious to see what happens with the variety of us over the longer term.

That is something I'm interested in writing about - and I'm actually working on an e-book in that territory. I intend to publish it on amazon, cheap ($4.99), perhaps under a pseudonym. Long term project ... I find that I torture myself over the wording of paragraphs: I'm trying to cover an over-all view clearly, in as short a space as possible. When I think about writing 'my own story' (at least how I see it right now) it's disaster after disaster, lol. And a big part of my process / situation is repairing my own wretched condition, lol. It's a series of interesting, but not pretty, spiritual adventures... "double-edged" for certain. I don't know that it would serve anyone for me to write those things in public... but distilling "lessons learned" and "healthy orientation" could be very helpful. Also I've thought of little vignettes "notes from the dysfunctional mystic" to work into that. I have mixed feelings, cautious, about publishing an e-book, even under a pseudonym, or giving an interview ... or anything that would put me in the spotlight until I fix my own boat (also I have an aversion to the spotlight in general, just my personality). Maybe I will anyhow, I don't know. Right now I'm just going slow-writing on that project. That's my blab on it this moment anyhow. p.s. I know I sound like a broken record, even to myself, but... I do find Sifu Matsuo's system to be a kind of first-aid station for people like me (or to avoid the typical pit-falls before falling into them if you are so fortunate), so I've found it efficient to just point to his stuff.

oh, jeez, I didn't even see this until just now... No, but thanks for asking.

His Bagua Iron Shirt video that is edited by Madskills Productions is the bomb, *really* good. It has compressing into the center and twisting~circulating both built-into the same movement. (So it doesn't have the dangers of some other schools' iron shirt methods that just compress.) The editing & production on this particular video is *very* well done, top notch. As to your other inquiries, I dunno.

I've also started with this one. There's a for-sale 45min video of whirlwind palms that goes over it in detail, many helpful tips (again, ordering info in the yt description)... though there is enough in this short yt video to experiment some, my tips if you do: go s-l-o-w-ly and keep a sense of integral body. This is a wild stretch to deep in the core... Sifu Matsuo is in mad good shape in this short video and so it looks just casually fluid fast n' easy... take your time.

Sword Foundation Secrets 1 (ordering info in the description of the yt video) Simple and surprisingly effective internal development techniques. Complements lower dan tien breathing beautifully. Just me personally, if this were only about external combat/weapons then I would have no interest, none, nada, zip. For me it is all about health & internal development. I sort of begrudgingly started experimenting with sword because I saw the internal aspect and have noticed that a number of the DGS internal forms have a sword version; it's the primary DGS weapon. So now I've taken the plunge, gotten over my initial aversion to training w/ a weapon, and am getting served up really fascinating effective internal stuff through sword practice. (I was this way w/ bagua, too, "do I *have* to learn another internal art?!? ", and now I am so diggin it .) Thank you again to Sifu Matsuo. p.s. Wing Lam martial arts supplies sells several straight-swords that meet the specs described in Sifu Matsuo's video.

I start from the big toe (between the big & 2nd toes), or simply from the ankle ... and I just generally work my way up the leg until I've had enough. And, yes, the Liver channel is not the only thing that is pertinent. Perhaps I came off as steamrolling toward ChiDragon, my bad. It's just that the *topic* deserves more serious clarity, by far, than the general discussion in current western-Taoist culture gives it. Whatever points (or massaging along sections of a channel, or in whatever regions) help, help is help. Plenty to learn. /rant off /unfollowing - Trunk

Glad you helped this fellow to some degree with his immediate discomfort. Often these sorts of problems are very stubborn to resolve, more extensively difficult, especially if someone has been experimenting with semen retention for a long time. In those cases your remedy is far from sufficient and saying that retention is not dangerous simply sends many students off a cliff from which they have a very difficult time recovering from. You don't know what seriousness of future trouble you are setting students up for by repeating overly simplistic solutions and assurances of no danger. Read the links that I provided.

It's *way* more complicated than that. There are 12 regular channels and 8 extraordinary vessels. If you go to virtually *any* doctor of Chinese medicine, they'll use a variety of points from various channels, depending upon your condition. Du & ren (aka, governing & conception vessels, aka microcosmic orbit) are basically what westerns are told about first through over-simiplified presentations, what I call "pop-Taoism". I've had *many* treatments by various drs of Ch medicine over several decades and I've *never* had a treatment that included just du & ren, and have very often had treatments that didn't include those vessels at all. For anyone who is serious about this sort of study, I suggest that you get a medical-level text about channels and acupoints, such as Peter Deadman's A Manual of Acupuncture. Whaaaa??? Ever since I started cruising the Taoist discussion forums, (starting at the "Healing Tao" site, before TTBs existed) maybe the most common dysfunctional pattern is that guys show up messed up from exploring semen retention. It's typical. And *usually* (not always) the teachers from those schools will deflect the severity of the dangers, make it the students' fault, etc, etc. Basically the problem is that tension gets stored (in the fluids, tissues and energetic channels), and that inhibits (qi & blood) circulation, creates blockages of various kinds. All sorts of disorders come from that. Some of this is documented, spelled out more fully, in these two links: 1. Healing Tao cautions. (TTBs thread accessible to members only) 2. Essential reading external link: (available to anyone on the www) Essays/posts by 5 different Healing Tao instructors cautioning about the "Healing Love" and "Iron Shirt 1: Packing Breathing" practices within that system. As far as the simplest channel-related self-massage, probably the best we've come up with (which was originally recommended by a doctor of Ch. medicine, btw) is to *slowly* massage the entire length of the Liver channel, spending more time when ever you come to a spot of pain, tenderness, or a knot. While masssaging, if you are unclear whether you're on the Liver channel or not, just stay in the "grooves" between muscles (or between muscles and bones) and even if you're not on the Liver channel chances are you'll be on a channel that is useful. Yup. - Trunk

Good point. I'm still less than a week into it ... I'm drinking a lot of fluids 'cause I know if it's aggressively digging out debris then fluids 'll help carry out the debris. Also I'm taking my basic vitamins, aminos, oils to help nourish/rebuild whatever previously hidden decimated regions that the serrapeptase uncovers. I figure I'll just give it a rest when ever my body says so. And, yeah, this is most probably not an all-the-time thing.

Just guessing (as I'm only 6 days into this thing and haven't experimented w/ all the ways), but at this pt I'd say: morning. There is *active* circulation as a result of taking it, especially for the first couple of hours or so and it seems to me that that'd be better suited while awake. I've started doing practices after taking it (self-acupressure, breathing, stretching, etc) as I think it really assists in "opening the tissues and channels"... and I'm on an empty stomach for practice anyhow, seems like a good mix. (The first day I just took the pill and chilled, wanted to see how it felt on it's own.) Probably sensible that it'll take longer to dissolve more solid things like the ones you mentioned (I think some people in the reviews said like 2 months?), qi & blood stagnation more immediately. p.s. Really curious to see how it affects the various of us short/long term. How do you say "gang of guinea pigs" in Chinese?, lol

The serrapeptase continues to be absurdly effective (since Tues, lol, at just 1 cap / day). I predict that a number of us will be so surprised and impressed that we'll be writing (or holding back) such enthusiastic reviews that we'll sound like idiots (just like the reviews on amazon). At least that's how I feel. This is day #5 and if keeps going like this, after I finish the bottle, I'm going to change my name to "Sarah Peptase". A doctor friend and I were looking at the list of supposed-things is does (dissolve phlegm anywhere in the body, dissolve scars, anti-inflamatory, resolves arterial plaque, etc) that - if true - are revolutionary and he joked to better buy a year's supply in advance (before the pharmaceutical companies swoop in and put the kabosh on it). It occurs to me that it's a good practice-time supplement for sessions that are oriented towards opening the tissues and channels (or basically everything except strength training). It is all about working through blockages, taken on an empty stomach, kicks in quickly (15-20 min) and is mostly noticably strongly effective for the following 2.5 hours. p.s. It would be good for *after* a strength-training session, to promote circulation, removal of lactic acid build-up, maybe super-efficient repair of muscles (?).

Ideally ... In the very center it is empty (or empty and bright). Elsewhere there is good circulation. Nothing is stuck, nothing is constricted to hardness. Even the bones have a liquid element (the marrow). Suppleness leads to strength. The ideals of weight-lifting (hardness, solid toughness, maximum contraction) are contradictory to the ideals of qigong... and will get you hurt if you apply them to your qigong practice.

I suggest that you start a new thread (something titled like, "the nature of the dan tien?") with that quote. Your conceptual understanding is *way* off and would likely lead to health difficulties. Many people here could comment and help you. p.s. This is your thread, and certainly that is not off-topic for this thread anyway - you could discuss it here of course. I just thought you'd get a lot more response in a new thread and it's a substantial topic in itself. Not trying to be presumptuous, discuss it where ever you want.

Not at all, why not be sure? Didn't cost anything to check. p.s. People vary a lot. Could be some of you will get nothing out of this product, or maybe a bad reaction. I have no idea; I've only tried one capsule. I'm not a doctor, etc. Pace yourself. I'm probably in a different situation than most, but I'm going to take a day or two before I take another. That's just how my body feels on this. I think I've uncovered a bit that I want to allow space to process. Thank you to flowconduit for posting; I'd no idea this existed.

1. I was careful to have an empty stomach, as the reviews said it needs to go to the small intestines and if there's digestion going on in the stomach it can ruin the effect. (Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but I took it on an empty stomach.) I had a steak yesterday at about 5p, and I took the pill (w/ water) in the wee hours this morning. 2. Within 20 minutes I felt a little something, "oh, I'm feeling a little circulation there and there, which is unusual, must be starting to work". Then rapidly ramped up in effect, circulating in various places that I know've been stuck for a long time (that I've worked at through various modalities, like I said previously). Deep, deep stuff. 3. The 'experience' (from the time I took the pill until the momentum subsided) lasted about 3 hours. I'm smilin' and gigglin'. It was a ride. ... but I do tend to be sensitive to stuff and the f'd-up problems I've had are pretty unusual (definately stagnation related, with other complications). If you're already healthy-like-bull maybe it'd be no big deal. Your experience may vary. I took the product that I'd linked to previously: p.s. What also encourages me a lot is the reviews I've read said that many of the major healings didn't occur for 2 months or more. (A lot of herbs etc work really well for a while and then don't.)

Yup.

I was curious enough that I bought a bottle of the stuff, took the 1st pill in the wee hours this morning. I've got some stubborn stagnation issues (that I've been working on through various modalities and no, I'm not going to give further details). The 1st pill was way-more-than worth the price of the bottle. Have fun debating.

I think it's becoming more popular for US practioners to get their TCM degree then study Jeffrey Yuan and/or Kiiko Matsumoto's work. Or various other deep heavies that are lesser known. I've seen quite a number of Drs of oriental medicine over the years. A couple of yrs ago I found a local dr who uses Kiiko's methods. O.M.G!!! 5-10x more effective. Just amazing. Rapid excellent results.