Trunk

I'm pretty new to the bagua world, not broad exposure. Thought I'd post this thread so that people could concisely list / link quality bagua resources. I've no idea who the historical figures are, who are the major lineage holders out there currently (except for 2 that are commonly named online), which bagua books (especially classics), etc etc. So I'm thinking this thread could be a concise "introduction to world of bagua resources" thread. p.s. Thanks! to Dawei for creating a bagua section!

I looked around a fair amount. I know that there's lots of amazing dragon art. I wanted one that embodied some aspects of cultivation, so it's somewhat classic, gold, with a pearl. - Trunk p.s. We've got some time until Feb10 - if one pops up that's better ... Here's what we have currently...

Already dug around a lot for a dragon. Almost done w/ it, w/ @liminal_luke's & his partner's help. (They've been generous to help over the last several yrs.)

thank you Yup! ... and the hole in the center makes it a functional (dharma) wheel.

Dovetails very much where my mind was going ... What are the stages of experience that we are experiencing re: LDT - breathing? I think that the practice of 'following the breath', + some sort of opening the body in conjunction with breathing + stabilized attention, is assumed to be already established. And then the breathing in the LDT can be felt as physical and unrefined as mud. ... all the way to very refined consciousness integration, and everything in between... from physical to very subtle. It's interesting navigating the changes, and see what changes occur over time.

indulging in redundancy, resorting to art to illustrate further, from the viewpt of dantien as integral with the One Light in a very simple way, what are the mechanics to get that to happen? - jade is both hard & soft, so represents being "well blended". all the work we do to prepare ourselves. - the hole in the center is the small quiet deep-center, and has a special relationship to "pervasive awareness at large" (they're the same) - the diamond is a "bindu" and has deep resonance with Vast Awareness Then there's the process: - resolutely resting our attention in that quiet still space - blending the elements into the center - let them dissolve there - stay there for a while (click a picture for whole art essay, JohnDaoProductions.wordpress.com)

Ok, I'm kinda honing in on a more focused answer to the subject line of this thread ... - much in agreement with what some others have already said, just getting there through my own messy thoughts - The book Tsongkhapa's Six Yogas of Naropa tr.by Glenn Mullin talked about (what I call) the deep-center - where the major chakras intersect the central channel. A still quiet space where the deep alchemy between personal and transpersonal. The Tibetans talk about it in that book something like this: "the wisdom of conjoining bliss and emptiness" and their basic instruction for what to do in that space, "enter, abide and dissolve". Typical of the Tibetan system, there's tremendous surrounding complexity in that book, and it's part of a head-spinningly extensive training system... but that one simple part of it is key and clarified a *lot* for me, in a lot of directions, re: a lot of practices. The territory that I kinda think a dantian is? it has that (above) at it's core. + ... and all of the layers of being and physicality fluently integrated. That's the short of it, for me. and points to an endless process. p.s. And one of the best tips I've heard re: quality to aspire towards is "silk breathing", your LDT breathing like silk for entire cycle of the breath. From Master Kim of Sundo.org.

(could be that I'm somewhat off-topic from the actual pt of this thread, just ignore if so, but - what's percolating ...) on a fairly physical angle related to the LDT ... *If* there are tangles in the nerve plexuses, torques n' adhesions in the fascia of the abdominal area, it can be a layered very long term project to work through. And the abdominal layers cover the LDT and up further the torso so - if open and functioning well, allows various ventilation, harmonization among. If not, then puts a partial lid on the LDT, inhibits the integral function. This sort of 'core' work is more common these days (pilates, etc), but my observation is that aspirants often get to that layered excavation late (because so many other things are easier, because the strength of youth masks lack of esoteric development, etc). If you made it through puberty with that region in really good shape, and you haven't had any major car wrecks nor kitchen fires since, then lucky you: provides much more fluently integral vitality. For those with issues, it's a notoriously stubborn region. A lot of the traditional internal arts (belly dancing, bagua, xing yi, yoga) have various exercises that separate and articulate the layers of abdominal tissue. That prepares a space, so that a LDT could occur (at all .. or more frequently, deeper, more integral). Fact is, the LDT includes our densest physiology, energies and psyche and, also (of course, 'cause She's all over) a connection to God. That's quite a spread. And, everything runs through there (we've an integral body). It just seems like a fluent and thorough integration, *especially* of the LDT, includes many layers and is long term cultivation. Seems to me that the broad areas to look at are: - health - behavior - transpersonal integration And as far as potential depth, how far does it go? Ask Padmasambhava. There are levels. ... but, hey, for some people they just feel basically well put together, basic healthy. Good on 'm. and perhaps no sense of 'pregnancy', of latent pressure ... of that incessant silent drive for divine integration that inspires, frustrates n' propels some of us ol' nuts over our whole lives. - Keith

I wasn't trying to give advice to others about how to talk, just shouting out my own working-things-out into the digital universe. If my viewpt is of use, well that's lucky. Easily could be not. fwiw, imo, you've made legit & discerning pts. Good conversation.

All good points. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ There's 3 definitions of dantian that "I've heard". - Ren-6 (or somewhat inward from that). - The relationship between the navel and the life-gate (between the kidneys) - and other pts and tissues engaged in body - to shift into "embryonic breathing". It's a deep-deep nourishing physical practice. Both of the above are oriented around health and physicality (even if very deep and esoteric) harmonization, integration, nourishment. - integrating with (what I call) the "deep-center", the small quiet still place, the mysterious pass (where the lower center intersects with the central channel ~ sushumna), to integrate with the One Medicine, Spacious Luminous Awareness, transpersonal awareness, etc. This is what I think of as the most deeply authentic. (And when I hear people say 'dantian', I am often uncertain about their intended meaning, and I have doubts that they understand what they intend to mean .. and I am curious as to what their actual experience is ..) ~~~~~~~~~~~~ That's just "what I've heard". I do not claim to be deeply stable and fluently accomplished in this area. I have enough experience to see that all 3 of the above are true, but still working on putting it all together with deeper stability and integration. Can I connect to the One Medicine in my LDT fluently, reliably, (nearly) every time? Nope. Same re: embryonic breathing? Nope. And so I'm cautious about throwing around simple terms in navigating my own internal practice, that those simple terms mask the complexity of what I'm actually experiencing. There are lots of layers of structure; there's a lot going on. There's opening the various layers of tissue, there's sinew-changing through the abdominal area, (both of which are long term projects, perpetual even) ... and how that all connects to organs, channels, tissues, the rest of my body. There's the processing of vitality and digestion. There's a lot going on. And, so, I am cautious in my own speaking (just for my own level, for myself, and not chastising anyone else for their expression - just slowly working out my own stuff) ... when I talk to myself about my practice ... while I know some taught maps and headed in those directions, and I do have some experience ... my own experience is not "fully baked" and I shy away from classic words that cover a complex territory with a single simple term that maybe I don't fully understand in the first place. To stay engaged and connected to my actual process, of patiently placing attention (yi) in an area and simply being open, curious, patient, calm, tenacious, smooth integrative. " all writing is a campaign against cliché. Not just clichés of the pen but clichés of the mind and clichés of the heart." - Martin Amis - Keith p.s. Often there are several (many, sometimes) interpretations for a Daoist term. Different legit layers or methods, also misinterpretations. it's often a mess. I'd agree that connecting the LDT to the One Medicine is what makes it a *really* authentic dantian, but I'd also say that a lot of the work is to integrate the pieces, the layers - of very physical to very subtle - to integrate, work together harmoniously. *ugh*, yet more ... imho, any major dantian (or chakra) connects to the One Medicine at it's intersection with the central channel. And, as that resonance develops, the whole central channel resonates with the Big Light like the filament of a light bulb.

I think there's a wide range of what each of us understand as 'elixir' and 'dantian'. Both varying from each other and also varying degrees of/from accuracy... accuracy of actual structure and from various teachings. It's a worthy struggle to: - understand what the teachings mean - connect to our own experience in a grounded way, and not letting the terminology disconnect us from the curiosity and engagement of "what is there?". Every teacher I've heard speak has struggled to put their practices, and traditional teachings, into common english language that connects. It's not easy. ... more later ...

See, it's not neutral. The assertion is: "You are causing your own suffering" That's an insult. disclaimer: I'm not claiming to represent any tradition, just my own thoughts - but there's a lot of overlap. Seems to me that the concepts of forward (manifesting) and reverse (unmanifesting) are pertinent. forward I just observe that physical life has challenges, pleasures and suffering and - from the perspective of the world and the body in a certain way, you're gonna suffer. Even, imo, the *very* advanced beings I've been lucky to be around. Their body still feels pain. (When they are not in meditation, ) they have a personality and deal with, and have (not always perfect) responses to, the struggles of life. In dealing in the world, forward, it's necessary to have a persona (thoughts, attitudes, skills, etc) in order to interact functionally in the world. A persona, or 'ego' one might say ... though, I know that colloquially 'ego' often has negative connotations of being stuck on one's self and self aggrandizing, there is just the functional conglomeration of stuff amorphous consciousness needs in order to act like person in functional way. reverse Merging with spacious awareness, transpersonal awareness, the One medicine, luminous emptiness, God. Humbling one's self to the dialectic between drop and Ocean. This can become so strong that it mostly overwhelms the discomforts of physical life, certainly accessible to many at least for short periods. More fluently, more skillfully and wisely, gradually deeper - over the course of one's life. (I'm just going to stop there at that level that is relatively grounded, real, accessible, not super advanced legendary esoteric.) The drop ~ Ocean integration, development, skill can develop with education on how it's done, and practice. Just like many other skills. So. Could you say that it's someone's fault that they've not developed the level of skill, development, that they've not eliminated all of their suffering? And take it as an insult? ... or that little kids etc? I can see how someone could take, argue, that pt of view - but I find it so out of proportion with reality, and so askew of the intent and perspective of the teachings ... that it's not, imo, a fair understanding of what Buddha was offering (even the little bit that I've gotten from it) nor how that relates to the realities of living cultivation. Do some of the Buddhist teachings get interpreted in extreme ways? Yup, imho. And leads to some legit analytical critiques, imo. Are there streams of Buddhism that seek to bridge middle ways? Yep. ... that train in gradual development that leads to solace from the built-in suffering of life? Yep. Are there streams of Buddhism that develop a "Light body" that resonates with Universal Light? Yup (vajrayana). Ok, 'nuff yakkin', Trunk

It’s been a rough year. I’m no astrologer, but geez. This Christmas morning I’m reflecting and … a lot of treasured things come and go, things are built, things are up-ended; it happens. What continues to be of meaning? What continues to be inspiring and renewing? Perennially: the internal process. And, by extension, the community process of muddling through, clarification, mutual support. Thank you each for sharing your sincerity, your practice, your experience. - Keith

I do find the words, "store" and "save", to be problematic for guiding practice. Harmonize, concentrate, integrate, transform, refine, circulate ... these words I find lead to more inquisitive practice.

@Hope, Welcome to TDBs! - Trunk

@Hans Braumueller, Welcome to TDBs! - Trunk

@Jenn, Welcome to TDBs! - Trunk

@nizhaosi, That's a formidable list! Welcome to TDBs, Trunk

https://www.amazon.com/Scholar-Warrior-Introduction-Everyday-Life/dp/0062502328/

Thank you! .. for those not familiar with Sifu Matsuo, Dragon Gate Sanctuary, here 're links: Youtube, Facebook, DGS intro page that I wrote up after being introduced to the school by @zerostao, one, two, three threads here at TDBs. ~ now back to your regularly scheduled thread ~

Sifu Matsuo mentioned "meditation, mantra, mandala" as a triplet. ... sort of a fundamental internal arts m&m's.

To the extent that you feel appropriate to share ... could you say something about what qualities and/or principles, goals, structural emphasis (any of that, or other, that you might choose) ... that designates a practice as neigong?

@zoe, Welcome to TDBs! - Trunk

~~~~~~ ADMIN COMMENT ~~~~~~~~~~ Partez has been banned. - Trunk ~~~~~~~~~/Admin out ~~~~~~~~~ p.s. Thank you to all who reported.