Trunk

That's the critical thing, really, for each individual: whatever is moving you forward. That, on its own, is a healthy level of selfishness. It's also important to keep your eyes open, not for the purpose of casting blame on individuals / organizations, but for the purpose of learning principles clearly ... so that one can navigate one's own path with increasing skill and perhaps one day be of help to others. It's a long path of education and experience; that's the nature of this work. The link that I've provided contains essays from 4 different HT instructors. As far as I know, 3 of them are still involved in the HT.

I don't know "how you know for sure", only that the incremental process is safer than full blast busted open.

I'm just starting to read the book this morning. A senior brother recommended it otherwise I probably wouldn't have bought it, already so much to learn. So far, I've only open the book randomly to places, several times: *wow*!

The relevant phrase that I've heard is "separating the waist from the hips". My experience of this, in recent DGS practice... The hips are stable and anchored to the earth. The rib cage is filled with heaven and so naturally lifts and expands, like a helium balloon. Between is the waist, which swivels like one of those fishing swivels. (And also, yes, the spine twists along the entire length.) I've never seen/heard of someone turning their spine 180 degrees. It's not something I currently understand nor aspire to. The above is just the bit that I've heard that is at least a little relevant.

imho, tai chi (or whatever internal martial art or movement qigong practice you use to integrate the body with heaven & earth) should come first, before a practice like iron shirt (IS). Otherwise, a person will have no sense of integration, and no sensitivity as to whether IS is causing integration or dis-integration. There are gentler ways (from other schools) to do IS type of breathing and - as we all know - the breath (+ awareness) can be used to help in a progression of development: balancing the energy, providing a skillful object of concentration, develop the lower dan tien, guide energy into the organs, fascia, bones ... in the context of healthy, harmonious, *GRADUAL* integration. I think the term "iron" can easily be misleading to westerners because it immediately brings up the idea of hard style, force, trying hard etc etc ... weight lifting football mentality & physicality that we westerners are more familiar with. But that path is *NOT* the path of harmony, is not Taoism. In Taoism, harmonious integration can lead to "iron" (ability to withstand blows). ... but "jade" is really a better guiding conceptual ideal, as it is both soft and hard. I haven't read the HT IS book in a long time (and my view is that the HT system is full of land mines, so I've left it entirely, long ago) ... but my impression of the book, when I read it and was younger, less experienced in Taoism in general, naive ... let me just say that I found the term "iron shirt" as an immediately catchy marketing term that inspired in me wrong concepts, wrong guidelines ... at least that is how I interpreted it as a young strong western male. Maybe I wouldn't have listened as easily to phrases like "the path of harmony", "balancing yin and yang", back then, but it would've at least 've been pointing in a healthy direction. (Retention is another concept that is immediately catchy, highly marketable, but full of wrong orientation for newbies.)

Several HT instructors warn about the Healing Tao (HT) Iron Shirt (and sexual) practices here. To quote what one of the instructors wrote (back in 1999), The 'difficulty' that was referred to around the above quote, which came up on the HT forum years ago (before TTBs existed) was that a student developed temporary blindness and vertigo from practicing HT Iron Shirt. A HT instructor was trying to help the student and wrote on the HT board asking for help. The HT still keeps selling the Iron Shirt books and videos as-is. Go figure.

I've said this before, but worth repeating as a topic. A very broad framework to keep in mind while learning about the sexual qigong practices ("jing gong"). There are 3 very natural categories (that of course overlap) of knowledge/practice: 1. Healing Jing Gong This is the medical layer of knowledge/practice. What are the typical disharmonies from a Chinese medical viewpoint? What are the dynamics of how those disharmonies occur? 2. Healthy Jing Gong This is knowledge/practice for a normal healthy individual. No semen retention, no immortal body ... just a normal healthy person, normal sexual cycle. How to smooth and harmonize the different parts of that? How/why things go wrong, how to adjust for normal healthy harmony. 3. Advanced Jing Gong Transformation into Light, (maybe) retention, marrow washing ... most all the fancy things you read about as well as just quieter deeper development. You might find it useful to keep the above framework in mind, over the long term. Trunk

Here's a few lines of thought, put through the above Healing~Healthy~Advanced prism... The issue of "post-ejaculation dip". The conversation virtually *always* jumps to semen retention as the only answer; there's no sense of increment here. To address the "healing" and "healthy" levels... What about from a Chinese medical perspective, how would that dip get described? What about for normal men, who are ejaculating at a healthy rate, what about understanding that cycle and what practices would be appropriate for smoothing a NORMAL sexual cycle? We know that retention, and to a lesser degree regular sexual activity, can cause "stagnant heat". So... From the "Healing" (Chinese medical) level, what is the basic strategy to treat stagnant heat? ... what is the mechanism/s that it sees that produces it? What channels are especially relevant? Relevant self-acupressure, qigong? What sort of practices would make it worse? At a "healthy" level, "not going on too long" is by far more important than "absolute retention". I think that, in the e-community, the PUA scene is an attempt for men to claim their "healthy normal" sexuality. Basically an attempt to learn courtship and normal healthy relations. (This is, of course, looking at the better parts of the scene.) And then, aside from "healing-healthy-normal", there's "mistaking an auxilliary path for the main path". There's a lot of that going on here... but that's a whole other discussion involving principles and in the 3 categories that I've given here I haven't described principles at all really, just a very broad shell to be filled in by long study. Anyway, that's my blab. p.s. (and the rant goes on) I had a typical western athletic upbringing, participated in sports, etc. I would say that my background gave me basically zero training in the internal arts and often reinforced holdings in my body. Even a more resounding zero was social and family life. I'm not saying I had it bad, I'm just saying that a normal western upbringing doesn't give you foundations, through your formative stages, for the internal arts. Rather the opposite. In many different traditions there is an extensive period of "opening the channels and tissues" and "aligning and clarifying the mind" and "integrating the body with heaven and earth". In the Tibetan tradition there is the "five one hundred thousands" which include 100,000 prostrations, 100,000 mantra repetitions, 100,000 etc, lol. In bagua, I've heard that traditionally a student just does circle walking (I assume a simple version) for three years before they learn anything else. These are the preliminary steps, before you are given any deeper teachings. So, I'm suggesting something that we all probably know too well already: we are skipping steps, lol. My shing-yi teacher said that to be called a "sifu", a teacher needed to be proficient in 3 things: 1. a doctor 2. internal martial art 3. the wisdom teachings There is a message there about the basic functional parts that a student, or at least 'many students', needs in order to effectively, in a healthy way, navigate the path. Very few of us have a close enough relationship with a teacher of those capacities. Worse than that, the pop-Taoist field is full of partial and often injurious information (mixed with some really great stuff). It's such a wild time. So, we as students are in a position of having to fill those gaps just to get some foundations. I'm just sayin'.

I got far enough with activating the feet that I'm now simultaneously doing the hand part of KYMQ (only up to the heart chakra, so far) while in the position #1 at left. (Actually easiest while sitting on a meditation cushion.) Changes things a lot. When you get to a place in KYMQ where you want to experiment a bit: recommended.

I'm not discarding advanced ideas, just recognizing that that's not where everyone is at. People vary.

This is really an unusual discussion, ... it's not the sort of point that generates any kind of answers nor points-to-discuss immediately. I know that it hasn't for me. What I feel, just having this sort of framework in mind is that I'm sensing huge critical gaps in my knowledge, where I didn't before. I have more of a tendency to open up new lines of inquiry, ask different questions, dissect a little more. It doesn't happen right away... my advice is just to consider the above frame, hang with it, reference next time you consider some aspect of the study ... and just see what happens to your inquiry... So, maybe the result of this thread is "new thoughts", "new questions", "new directions of curiosity" ... that come to you out of a new frame for a subject. The box is a new shape. Next time your considering a jing gong topic, throw it through this box. You'll find the inquiry will bounce around in your head along new trajectories. p.s. ime, This framework also fosters a more realistic assessment of one's self. In general, everyone is a mix of fucked up, basically normal, and really extraordinary. There's room for that in this framework.

A big part of the problem is that the popular "frame" for sexual practice discussion is retention-centric. My most basic point is that the entire study needs to be reframed. This is not about quick answers... it's about a broader framework that leads to a variety of other questions and lines of inquiry than even come up under a narrower framework. Changes the shape of inquiry over the long term, with many new answers resulting. So this framework isn't about first providing a new set of answers, it's about changing how we look at the subject so that we start asking new questions. From there you'll research, and observe, and get lots of new answers.

The basic pattern, concisely "stagnant heat", is typical of semen retention gone wrong. And at least portions of that pattern are present in every symptom that you've mentioned (past and present). I've been here since the beginning of this forum, and a similar e-forum prior... Men occasionally come through all messed up from attempted semen retention. It doesn't happen to everyone but it's not uncommon.

Some cautions from instructors of that system.

Congratulations!!!

Some alternative healing resources, to give you a sense that there are healthy alternatives... 1. Unwinding the Belly book. Also read Eric's "Getting Started" thread in which he talks about UTB. 2. Self-massage along the Liver channel (or approximately along that way). Spend time gently working out any knots you find along that route. It will help with flow through your belly.

uh... bagua and hsing-i are internal martial arts. If they are taught & practiced correctly, they are first practiced to generate internal change and that's where (later) their application power comes from. I can't imagine trying to go directly to external application. Seems to me that defeats the whole purpose and art of these inherently internal martial arts. Would generate no power, nothing in the long term. What a waste. Everything you've described about him so far indicates otherwise. Not just benignly, but potentially (probably) with serious consequences: injury. Guard your health! Do not let your naive trust over-power your realism. If you are getting something positive from some aspect of the school (like tui na) where you are not at risk, and you feel like you really want to continue that, then keep that aspect. ... but geez!, stay out of the hard hitting. Sorry to be so blunt, but you really need to find another teacher. Rather a doctor, healer. You are trying to jump levels from "remedial medical" (where you actually are) to "hard external style" and it's a BIG mistake!!! ... with potential long term health consequences. Given all that you've described, clearly you are irresponsibly putting yourself in harm's way by continuing in that martial arts class.

I guess this topic has got me going I was thinking driving home that western style exercise (weight lifting, sports) gave me a number of wrong attitudes and feelings by which to approach qigong. And that the qigong world is just littered with injured aspirants... who often got injured before they had enough experience and knowledge to really fend for themselves. Really common.

I was talking to another friend recently about developing sensitivity and responsibility for your own body, within the context of studying with a teacher / school. My position is that you have to develop both. For one thing, in the internal arts, if you don't develop a sensitivity for what is promoting harmony in your own body and what isn't ... and gradually get better at that ... if you don't do that then for sure you are going to hurt yourself. Some time some how some way. And you'd have no compass to navigate progress (though we are all feeling our way in the dark to a certain extent, there is still the feel). Trusting the teacher to always sense your inner situation and advise the right thing, it's just expecting too much; it's not human. Even doing that for one student is very tricky and deep, but teachers have lots of students. Even if the teacher is *very* good it is expecting too much, not real. And I'm not an absolutist; I'm not saying, "you're %100 responsible" because there is a certain amount of leadership and direction that a teacher provides. It's a balancing act. ... but I'd say that it's very important not to go into such child-like trust with a teacher that you abdicate your adult-hood. It's a very common mistake and isn't good for the teacher nor the student, nor the school nor progress.

Sounds like the wrong class for you. Your condition is not appropriate for that intensity of practice. Your judgement is better than your teacher's in this case and you are being (unintentionally and recklessly) set up for injury. Given your level of noob-ness & naivete, the class atmosphere that you describe, and that your teacher (and doctor, aware of your condition) had you do the practices in the first place... I'd suggest not returning to that dojo. Go about finding gentler methods to more wisely address your abdominal healing.

Love my brush pen! <3 (Haven't worked with prepared ink, went for convenience.)

Pakuas, collection pts, moving the pearl through various places (other than the central channel)... I dropped all that stuff a long time ago. There are ways to have the pearl in the central channel and then 'include' front & back (ren & du) points, left & right (ida & pingala), in order to create yang ~ neutal ~ yin interactions. No fancy moves, no fancy diagrams (which I find to be mostly a distraction). Focusing mainly on what connects to Deeper Stuff. I like it simple.

To add a p.s. to my previous post... As the resonance with Light is gradually increased in the deep-center/s, then the mundane energies more strongly are drawn there. Then the Light of the Universe is lending it's power to both draw the energies inward to the deep-centers, and also to refine the energies. Then you have larger natural forces (than just your mundane self) working your alchemy for you. ... in a way that makes you both transcedent and coherent, "holds you together", and deeply centered. This is summarized (super concisely) on my overview of cultivation page. LL, I'm not clear on how you're accomplishing that (I suppose there could be a number of ways), but it sounds like a good sign.

Your question implicates a key and fundamental misunderstanding, missing information, re: the role of the pearl. What it is, what it leads to. imho No offense meant. The pearl can basically be used in two levels (at least this is how I look at it, not claiming to know everything): 1. Personal For me, the quality of the pearl when used like this is ... as the essences of the organs (or etc) combine it creates a balanced nourishing substantial energy that coheres partly because of the combination of opposites and partly due to my steady focus. For me, it often has the feel of a kind of "nourishing subtle gel"... a kind of substantial and nourishing kind of qi. This pearl can be moved around to nourish various parts of my body (organs & so on). Also it can be personally centering in any one of the dan tiens. (skipping the whole topic of pearl shooting; it's generally understood to be dangerous and has been talked about before) 2. Transpersonal The next step is not to make the pearl denser, it is to DISSOLVE it into Emptiness or Light. The skillful way to do this, in a way that actually starts to kick the whole vajra body into gear (gradually, in a balanced fashion)... the way to do this is to dissolve the pearl into the empty still space at the center of each dan tien / chakra. That small still place is where sushumna intersects the chakra and that place, in the human form, has an especially powerful connection to the fundamentals of Emptiness and Light. This gets into what the Taoists call "the mysterious pass". It's super key. I'd be so bold as to say, from a classical perspective, it could be soundly argued that alchemy doesn't happen without it. And it's not as commonly understood as it should be, in my opinion and observation.