Trunk

Yup, kind of a dramatic lull.

Yup, The Orgasmic Diet by Marrena Lindberg. Agreed. Though maca is fine, and the oils suggested in the above book are fine, beyond that the herbs that are appropriate per condition vary a lot. Especially for women.

That was pretty sweet. A lot of the information was accurate, and the whole tone - 50's propaganda film - was priceless. The music!!! This has got to go into TTBs 'favorites'. This could be linked for every newbie in our 'hello' greetings.

It's at the KL forum; I doubt that he would grant for it to be posted here. I'm certainly not going to ask. Basically he's teaching openly through the end of the year and then will become more private. Perhaps still teaching some but on a less-open basis - what exactly that means I don't know. I assume that the teachers he has trained will continue teaching. That's it in a nut-shell.

We are agreed on that as well. (See my earlier "reptile-village" post.)

I've been having "lineage" type experiences for a little over 2 decades. Christian, Hindu, Tibetan ... which beings I've interacted with corresponded to which teacher, which temple, which altar. I've been in groups where people go through all kinds of stuff, dig up their unconscious, mystical etc's. Subtle reptiles never came up (not for me, and not with anyone I knew of) until a few days after I was initiated by Max. Rather no coincidence that many many of us just happened to start to have naga experiences right after initiation by Max??? It's the psychic stream that has protected him and given him support through much of his life. Has been of real benefit for Max. And, as we've seen, it's been fine for some of us. But definately not for others. Way, way not. %-wise I don't know how it works out, but the rascalious-reptile trouble certainly doesn't have to happen to everyone, nor it even to a majority, for it to be worth acknowledging. And, especially this sort of trouble, it's the kind that can seriously send someone around the bend. The role of a heavenly Lineage is to provide refined energy (grace), and stable ways of being at very high levels of consciousness... so that students can refine with more stability, purity, and have an inner refuge to go to when the going gets dicey... Yoda has talked to more than a dozen people who've had trouble. (And I don't think he put up a sign that said, "only talk me if you got rascalious-reptile troubles".) That's a pretty large sampling, as big o' batch of private conversations as any of us is likely to get. And his daughter senses these entities? Various people in the same house are having troubles, even when they don't do the practice??? (Not just in Yoga's household but also Cat's.) Clearly there is real danger and injury for some substantial percentage of people who get involved, and for people who are even near those that got involved. This is just too many reports, from people who're speakingly evenly, who've been trustworthy on the board for a long time, and had actually gone to seminars and done the practice. If the above is the case (and I know that everyone needs to make their own decision), would you recommend that a friend get involved in such a situation? And, again, I had no trouble with the brief interaction that I had, during the very brief period of time just after initiation. And I feel that I've benefited from the KL + RP, and I feel that Max has been kind and generous to me, genuinely helpful.

I think the word "demon" is somehow inappropriate. I think "rascalious reptile" (RR) is more like it. If there's problems like some are suggesting, I think it has to do with being initiated into a broad psychic sort of reptile-village... where maybe there's reliably well intended enlightened nagas, as well as a range of less well intended (perhaps even malicious), and maybe that kind of lineage is kinda wild to begin with. "Demon" tends to connotate flat-out bad and - while there may be some instances of that - I think it mis-characterizes the the broader situation. Clearly, quite a number of people are getting really good results with KL. And, clearly, there's also some troubling trouble. I also don't like the word "slut", but that's a different story for a different thread.

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It was a suggestion. Of course everyone has their choice, especially on a www forum. There's always the "ignore" list, and no limit on the number of posts/thread I suppose. ~ later edit ~ Maybe I'm being harsh; I'm in a cranky mood today. But at the same time, Yoda - for all the years that I've seen him on this board - has been perhaps the most good-natured, humorous, love-for-all, unlikely to speak harshly of any teacher or student or passer-by. And that he feels that he needs to come out and say some things like he is trying to say... I think he deserves that the thread stays mostly on-topic. Also, Winpro, I know that you are being sincere and that you've experienced and promoted some really extraordinary progress.

Undoubtedly there are some real gems in this line of inquiry (and I mean that genuinely), but it's rather highjacking this thread. I suggest that you start a new thread and sort it out there.

...

Experiment: Get in your car, drive to a busy street, close your eyes and decide: "The road is plenty wide and there are no other cars on the road". Keep your eyes closed and drive for 10 minutes. Get back to us, let us know how it went. Remember: you are %100 responsible.

This kind of thinking is just doesn't stand up to any direct observation in any area of life. "It's all me", puh! It's certainly not the integral view. You can't even take a breath without relying on plants that produced oxygen. Is there anything in your house that you created entirely? A window? A chair? Even the carpenters and artisans got materials from somewhere. Try driving down the road and freeway as if you are the only one there. Puh-leeze, let's at least test our ideas with a little observation, discernment. In this thread, are you creating it all? No. Lots participate, and we all affect eachother to varying degrees. That doesn't mean that we don't each hold our own space and have our own power, and can re-claim and cultivate good control. But as if a single individual were entirely running any show. Maybe a comforting idea, maybe nifty-sounding, but real?!?! Internal world is the same. Reading this thread you had thoughts as you read people's writings. Now, you have the choice to guide and massage and manage those thoughts and come through to your own conclusions... but to pretend that others did not influence you, it's just silly. There is interaction. What you touch, touches you.

It surprises me that people don't know simple heavenly lineage basics to begin with, that they're disputed, or at least not explained straight-forwardly by those in 'official' positions. It's just basic, basic. Look at it this way. If you went to a genuinely grace-filled Christian pastor to receive a blessing, what do you think you'd get?: Christ energy and at least a temporary doorway where you might more easily deepen your relationship with Jesus. Duh! Continue to hang out with that genuine pastor, perhaps with a bunch of other Christians, and it would facilitate the deepening of that relationship with Christ. It's the same in every religion. Just swap labels and Heavenly Help Crowds. That doesn't mean that you would have to stay with Christ. You could think, "oh, that was nice" and return to your Buddhist devotions and your Buddhist temple and then your mind-stream would shift to align more with Buddhist Heavens & Help. Really. Folks. This is just common knowledge. Just a-b-c's. ... And, sure, you are partly in control. But partly, it's not all you. You could go to a Christian church every Sunday and pray to Buddha the whole time, what do you think you'd get? Some Buddha-vibe, some Christ vibe. There is power in groups. Use it with a little bit of savvy.

Wow. Joel. Thanks!

Yeah, I know, "geek squad".

As far as over-involvement in the Naga lineage (for those it was a problem), it seems to me that preventative and exit is just a little basic education on keeping an altar and aligning with whatever heavenly help suits you.

The conjoining of bliss and emptiness (link) is really important and has a lot to do with staying in and developing your own center(s).

Quite a few people in this thread have given you warnings and you don't seem to be taking them to heart. You are already getting negative results and most probably, if you continue like this, you will hurt yourself further. Retention is advanced, and if you do it wrong you get the opposite results (injury instead of benefit). Trunk

In this thread we are not using the word "lineage" to say where the information came from, not referring to the earthly lineage of teacher~student associations. We are using the term "lineage", here, to identify the spiritual (non-physical) beings that someone hangs out with. The methods could've come from anywhere. Not necesarily the same.

A little bit, especially in the period after the seminar. Certainly less than some people are referring to in this thread. But, as I said, I did the practice only for very short periods and not every day. It was kind of like a dragon flowing through my body. It was a surprise to have a reptile form flow through mine, I think part of the my mammalian form naturally goes *yipes* at that interaction. At the same time I know enough (friend or foe) to breathe and apply serenity. A fundamental meditation principle is "be cool". And, upon inspection, I could feel that the interaction was quite benevolent and helpful to my process ... kind of smooths the sinews. (Later edit: The above was my experience, within the limits I mentioned. I don't mean it to diminish anyone else's experiences that might vary from my own, and others can - of course - speak for themselves.) At the same time I don't feel like it's my home lineage, not some place I choose to hang out in long term. Upon initiation you're "in the river" (the mind-stream of the lineage). You're soaked and you flow with it, and there's also the choice to put your attention elsewhere and you glide from the center of the river to shore, turn and bow gratefully, and move on to where ever else suits you. Graceful exit. And, while there is choice to glide out of that river, it's not instant choice. And it's not all about choice; it's who you were initiated by, there are mechanics involved, there is "the way it happens". You have some control, but you're not entirely in control. Like in regular life. Though this isn't 'regular life'. I feel more at home within the Kagyu lineage and with Kuan Yin. I like Kuan Yin. I find her to be very benevolent and soothing and she shows up in all of the eastern religions, gives me room to explore the areas that naturally interest me while sustaining that relationship. Her mantra, the deity practice, all I find to be very very helpful. Mark has Siddha and Kagyu Lineage flowing through his school, which is part of why I was so drawn to him I think. But, like I said, I only practiced KL for very short sessions and not daily. Though my experience was vivid (and I still find that realm available if I put my attention there steadily) I didn't have nearly the extensive experiences that some are noting in this thread. A few times over several weeks maybe. I don't think that the KL position is inherently connected to any single lineage. A person could do KL while integrating with any or no lineage. Who you hang out with psychically is the key, where you put your attention. Put your devotion towards Jesus of Nazareth, hang out with Christians, and you'd be more in that Lineage Stream. (.. or similarly with Hindu deities/teachers, or Tibetans, or etc.) Personally, I think it would be nice if the KL + RP became available without lineage affiliation (in addition to, not instead of, the current offering). Though that is not my call to make, just my personal opinion. I think that they are basically very good practices. And, yes, I acknowledge that they can be over-done and problems can occur. And I don't think any single practice is suitable for everyone. Trouble-shooting is tricky. It really requires extensive, broad experience. Ideally a trouble-shooter would be very familiar with the fundamentals of Chinese medicine (or equivalent) plus have wide training in physical body-changing practices plus extensive meditation experience... plus be able to give the student time and attention. It's really a tall order to fill in modern western culture, very rare that it actually happens here. On a practical realistic basis students can expect to learn just parts of the path at any one school (and try and be wise discerning about what is / isn't in that school), and learn from a number of good schools over a long period of time. Even in a culture rich with spiritual tradition, people go to different teachers/schools to learn different aspects of the path. .. uh, this is my side-ways way of saying that the KL assistants face a steep learning curve. But, what are you gonna do? You've gotta start somewhere. And Max has tapped several people with Ch.medical experience (+ other trainings) to become more involved. There is the reality of logistics and gradual progress. (And I'm not saying that to brush off the serious consequences involved, just as a stubborn fact.) Trunk

It's the kind of practice that you can get a wide range of results, on a scale of from injury through benefit. "First, do no harm."

In high level lineages the practice is to blend your mind-stream with that of the lineage. The idea is to accomplished refinement through the company of grace and to learn skillful ways of organizing coherent being at extraordinary levels of consciousness. Classically considered essential for high level work. During intensive periods of learning with lineage, in a lot of ways you really do live with them. It's actually a big deal, goes along with devotion and can be of tremendous benefit. A big part of the art. (I've said this before, but ... ) When you get initiated by an Enlightened Teacher with Enlightened Lineage you get introduced to the mind-stream of the Lineage, whether you know it or not. You have the choice whether you stay and integrate consistently with that stream, or whether you intend-glide to the shore, bow and be grateful, and go in whatever direction you feel is your fate. Though some of these sorts of associations might be a surprise for noobs, it's classically a very normal part of the path.

I would say that they are not so much separate schools as complementary strategies, appropriate for different people at different times. One teacher I met gave an instruction and would add, "for you for now". The kind of work appropriate to someone whose tissues and channels are open, might be the kind of work that really mess up a typical person with only a western exercise background... or do nothing for them at all. Throw in the fact that people vary a great deal by body type, temperment, mind training, endocrine pattern... you could see that some people consider that teaching just one person, in person, at a time (or at most a very small group) - on at least a semi-regular basis - is maybe the only way that anything ever gets done in learning a system. And by "learning", I mean actually getting it in your body. I mean, I'm all "bravo!" for good teachers who are brave enough to teach many people, but I think that also the other pt of view is valuable to consider. One thing that I've learned by reading these forums, btw, is that a question is often best answered in all kind o' different ways. Cheers,

Very well put! This sort of dynamic shows up in many schools and hinders the effectiveness of the very school/s they're trying to support. If people within a school could let go of that, a lot of details could emerge that help with nuanced problem solving. ~ later ~ p.s. From me at least, this is not negatively charged - but a good-hearted compassionate observation. It's a unrealistically tall order to get thorough training from any one school / teacher, especially in western culture. You get parts from one school, absorb and learn from them the best you can from what they have to offer - and get parts from other school/s, teacher/s. imo, the KL crew offers their best efforts and some really good things to learn. I'm glad they are teaching, and learning, think they contribute positively (mostly, everyone has their foibles) to the culture and wish them well.