dwai

I'm a long time Zhan Zhuang practitioner, often standing ~ 1 hr at a time. I find it very useful to release tension. I don't see how it can be used to compress muscles. Power redistribution occurs by the distribution of Qi in my experience, with increase in sung. The Qi sinks into the LDT and then spills over & spreads all through the body. BTW, too much standing is bad for the kidneys. We have to ensure that we move around after standing to prevent double weighting/adding too much pressure on the kidneys.

I realize that after the "physical" workouts, I have to stand and release the qi downward. As the qi sinks I can feel the parts of the body (Muscular structures) that are obstructing the sinking. It literally feels like parts where Qi is flowing now is "wet" while the parts that are "strong" are dry. Especially in the shoulders and neck and the lower back, around the belt meridian I can sense bands of "strength" which need to be released after each workout. There might be some hope in this regard I guess, just have to work more towards releasing.

Yes and no. We have to develop our intuition. I found that in my case, the right path presented itself when I was ready and listening. The right guidance came in form of dream teachers, as well as physical ones However that maybe due to karmic influence from previous lives good work. That makes sense and rings a bell too. In temple style, we are told that the training goes in 7 year cycles. 7 years of working with the physical body, jing and qi; 7 years with focus on shen; 7 years of working with focus on meditation emptiness, and then repeat and refine again and again (I'll have to double check). The training and practice should never stop.

No. Consciousness only is the way of pure Nondual traditions - e.g., Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism. Some tend to de-emphasize energetics (such as Advaita Vedanta or Kashmir Shavisim's Sambhavopaya -- the First of three practical methods) as they are phenomena known to/experienced by the consciousness (awareness). It is about knowing without an iota of doubt, what one's True Nature is - Pure awareness, in which all existence manifests and de-manifests. To me, clarity means always being grounded in and as our root awareness (Pure consciousness). I've had many wonderful experiences with Jeff, Tom & co. Also many wonderful experiences by the grace of my master, but never got confused/carried away as the clarity remains. In the wisdom/insight path (some call it jnana yoga), this clarity is of paramount importance. Advaita Vedanta mainly deals with this. Lets other traditions like yoga and tantra deal with the energy way or physical way. If we consider Kashmir Shaivism, there are actually four paths. Anupaya upaya - Pathless Path. Not meant for most seekers (means you are born like that, or with sufficiently less karmic tendencies that you can become enlightened in a flash). Sambhavopaya - This is the path of consciousness. It is meant for those seekers whose minds are purified and are able to focus (already have clarity). This is the fastest/direct path. Shaktopaya - The way of energy - this involves working with the energetics etc. This is the intermediate path. Anvopaya - This is the way of the body - preparing the body, preparing the mind, opening the channels, etc etc. This is the longest path.

I'd like to take a swing at that Ramana Maharshi is considered a Jivanmukta - Liberated while Alive. What does that mean? It means he is no longer identified with the physical body/mind mechanism. For him, the body didn't matter. He was of the category of "Awareness/Consciousness only". In fact, per the Hindu traditions, Ramana Maharshi was a type 2 enlightened being - whose mind had been eliminated (manonāsha). There are 3 types of enlightened beings per those traditions. To add a comment on @freeform's post about the difficulty with "consciousness only" way, is that the karmic tendencies of most people are too strong to be easily successful this way. Most won't even understand intellectually what is being taught, even though it is the simplest path to follow, primarily because their minds are too scattered, or too polluted. In my own experience, it all started to make sense after spending good part of 15-16 years preparing myself via taijiquan, yoga, meditation practice. One day, after my teacher's initiation (call it lineage transmission or even shaktipat), it all started to make sense. And then one day, total clarity about what that consciousness only path was. It IS the easiest path, and if you can follow it, you need not do anything. But this path was meant for people of a different time - not modern, over-stimulated minds and bodies, pumped full of chemicals. To get back to the topic at hand -- There are many yogis who have various siddhis such as being able to stop the heart, not breath for prolonged periods of time, not eat or drink water for weeks or months (or at all), making tumors appear and disappear at will, etc etc. Some of them are enlightened, some are not. Then there are Yogis who live on for multiple hundreds or thousands of years - famous of these today are the Kriya Yoga lineage, Babaji, et al. These are both Enlightened as well as retain a corporeal body.

FWIW, I signed on with a personal trainer, with whom I shared my concerns about strength training. She is setting a training regimen for me that will ensure I don’t overdo the muscle training and focus on cardio and fascia workouts. First workout was havoc, but I’m excited to see where we go with it. I had to do prolonged standing to release energy that rose upward as a result, sinking into the LDT. Also ran through a set of fajin cleansing drills (some teachers call it “throwing”) to loosen up the joints & fascia, and workout the major fascial bands which are used for internal power transfer). The post workout taiji set helped bring things back to normal (in terms of how my insides feel).

Mike Van Zuiden is out there. Let’s touch base offline and I’ll try to connect you with him. I’m not sure if you remember Mike, but he’s a long time temple stylist and was George’s student along with me, Evgeny and you. We used to practice together until he moved to the Denver area in 2013-2014.

Where are you these days @forestofemptiness? We might have a temple stylist in your neck of the woods

Very sensible and wise points raised there @liminal_luke! Sitting quietly after practice is essential to assimilate the energies. In the tradition I follow, we usually sit for 10-15 mins after standing/form work etc. I would add to your second point that along with connecting to a lineage, also connect with the teacher as she/he is teaching. Depending on the lineage, there is a transmission that emanates from the teacher. I think of it like the teacher becomes a radio tower who is radiating lineage information, especially while teaching. When we tune into the teacher’s frequency, we become receivers of that transmission. One could of of course say, just by following the teacher/copying his/her postures and movements we are doing so. And it is so. However like you pointed out, there is also a subtle energetic/spiritual transmission that occurs too. This gets amplified when we practice in a group as well. Our fields combine and get amplified. The effect is quite palpable when we have several experienced and advanced level practitioners together. The space starts to vibrate at a much higher frequency, and all the stuff that seemed hard becomes easy. the third one is perhaps the most profound. My teachers told/tell me that when we feel we are not progressing is potentially the time when most significant change happens. Boredom teaches us patience and how to allow change to happen. It teaches us Wu wei.

There’s a lot of what we can call “internal-external” forms of so called internal arts. To know a genuine internal artist, is to feel their power. You won’t feel like you were pushed but you find yourself hit a wall several feet behind. Or suddenly drop to the ground upon the lightest touch. Most people are unable to let go of the comfort of their physical strength. It takes dedication to do so. Some might even call it craziness My Master says it very simply — “if you want to get good at internal power, you have to believe in it 100% - 99.9% won’t work” — have confidence in your training and experiences. Don’t have a backup place for physical strength at all. Literally give up your reliance on physical strength. I think that’s the part about pure internal martial arts that’s the hardest. Im a pretty strong guy - always have been. For me, strength is not a problem (ie in context of the OP). I’ve had to let go of my reliance on strength progressively for many years , been a martial artist for 30 years, of which 18-19 have been doing taijiquan. The mysterious power of taiji is simply mind boggling. That’s the reason why I stuck with it for so many years. I’ve touched hands with some very high level folks. Didn’t even have to go to China for it. They are right here in Chicago

My theory is that “good” taiji people become so efficient in terms of proprioception and biomechanics that they exert far less energy to do work than “normal” people do. But the quantity of food we intake does not easily change. So more calories in, less calories burnt. Ive done drastic changes to my diet, such as eating only half of what I’d normally eat, and dropped 45-50 lbs in a span of 3-4 months. But old dietary habits are very hard to change. Especially for all us “rice eaters” - it’s as addictive as nicotine imho. But its it’s just a theory

It’s a different kind of power. Imho, afaik, shaolin style develops what is called “hard qigong” power. It is not the same quality that the Daoist methods cultivate.

Actually, taijiquan when done right primarily develops the dantien. And all three of them. Yes. But the three dantiens are interrelated, and can direct energy in different ways. We cultivate this in the style of taijiquan I practice, with very elaborate methods and mediations. I’m gravitating towards this myself. Will find out in a few more weeks if it works

Internal skill is developing certain "mysterious" capabilities of the body. Primarily in the realm of Qi and Jin. For Qi and Jin to work, physical strength needs to be given up. It seems highly counter-intuitive to those who haven't experienced this - firstly as a recipient of such power, and then internally within their own body. There are two separate engines of power generation in the human body. One is the traditional muscle based on, the other is the internal way -- fascia (Jing Jin roughly), Qi, Jin. If we have to develop power in the internal way we have to give up the muscular way. The muscular way interferes with the development of the internal way. The primary qualities of internal way is by developing what is called "song" (relaxation) and peng (expansion), along with the ability to sense (ting). At more refined levels it goes beyond the fascia, into developing a fully integrated qi sphere which extends several feet/meters around the body. Then the power comes from the surface tension of this field.

I've had many injuries due to martial arts over the years. The one that I'm afflicted by still is a left shoulder issue that keeps flaring up from time to time (Mainly due to my forgetting its there and messing it up after a few days of reprieve as a result of taiji). I used to have a very strenuous workout when I was a young karate practitioner. Each session lasted 3+ hrs -- I only worked out 3 times a week The set involved 15 min jog to warm up 4 sets of 50 pushes (different types) 4 sets of 50 crunches 4 sets of 50 side situps (not sure what they're called, we called them russian sit ups) wheel barrow climb up and down a long flight of stairs duck squat and walk back and forth a long corridor Drilling kicks, punches, blocks Kata Sparring cool down with gentle stretching etc If I did even a quarter of that now, I'll likely get a brain aneurism or a heart attack... :\

I trained with kettlebells and indian mace etc for full body workouts. Also a rowing machine. However, I find that as I gain muscular strength, it strangles the "openness" and integrated feeling of the body. Maybe I have to supplement with stretching to allow prevent the muscles from clamping down on me. I walk a lot - 3-4 mi every day. Also restarted my yoga asana practice, so time will tell.

A good resource for Non-dual Shaiva tradition would be http://www.anuttaratrikakula.org/ IINM he is the person responsible for the translation of the Shiva Sutras by Swami Lakshman Joo, considered to be the last fully realized Master of Kashmir Shaivism. If OP is interested, send me a PM and I'll try to connect you with some KS folks I know.

Reminds me of my Master, who is a skinny 120lb, 6-footer. He used to torment the buffed up body-builder types in his gym by asking them to push his hand up/down or push him backward, which they'd give up on, red-faced after several attempts... This!

Don't try to force anything. It will happen on its own. Just be patient. Setting aside the technical aspects of structure, posture, etc etc which are important initially, Sung is from letting go. By letting go, it means not letting your mind get attached to anything in particular. Whatever arises, let go. If a thought arises, let it go. If an emotion arises, let it go. If a sensation arises, let it go. Then next question that usually follows is - "How do I let go?" The answer is - it is as easy as literally dropping something you were holding on it.

I know its sort of off topic, given that you're discussing buddhist mudra practices, but thought I'd share the Hindu/Tamil Siddhar perspective. During my Siddhar yoga days, I used to combine Pranayama and mudras to raise the kundalini up the central channel. Preparatory was learning to breathe properly. How to attain glottis control so the inhalation and exhalation can become slow, steady and elongated. Practice sitting in vajrāsana and do cycles of inhalation:exhalation of 1:4 ratio. Introduce holding after sometime for inhale:hold:exhale with 1:2:4 ratio. Apply the 3 locks (bandhas) Introduce 4 mudras we would cycle through - chin mudra, chinmaya mudras, ādi mudra and merudanda mudra. It was powerful and resulted in kundalini rising to the crown. From start of the process to actually applying all the mudras it took more than a year of daily practice. WARNING -- Don't try this alone at home. Find a good teacher

I agree

I personally have followed three traditions quite deeply over the past 20+ years. I find from direct experience that they lead to the same source. A philosopher-physicist-sage friend of mine put it this way. There really are "truth-claims" and not "truths" per se. In order for a truth-claim to be, a categorical framework needs to be employed. What is a categorical framework? It facilitates a method by which objects of knowledge can be categorized and labeled. They might have roots in different (or different seeming) theories, which set forth the rules via which to do said categorizing and labeling. However, when one directly gets to the heart of any truth-claim, they will find the same underlying experience (can't find a more appropriate word to describe IT). I think it's okay to consider even different truths, so long as we understand that different categorical frameworks are in play. The problem becomes when we try to evaluate on the basis of one categorical framework, the truth claims that arise from different categorical frameworks. A good example I find is in the field of medicine. Western medicine depends on a particular categorical framework. TCM depends on another, and Ayurveda depends on another. From the perspective of the Western medical doctor, TCM and Ayurveda are essentially bullshit, if he/she uses the Western Medicine's categorical framework to evaluate the validity of TCM and Ayurveda. Yet, empirically both TCM and Ayurveda are effective modes of medical practice and in fact are far more prophylactic in nature than Western medicine currently is. The key is in finding a common purpose for the discourse. If you look at the four categories of discourse that I outlined in the thread OP I shared earlier, you'll find there are really two worthy of having. Samvāda and Vāda -- i.e., discussion between an expert and a novice, or between two equals (preferably experts). All other forms will lead to "heat generation".

What you are asking for in the OP is called "pramāńa in sanskrit (or Proof). Each tradition has its own set that it works with. For example, in Yoga, there are three -- Pratyaksha - Direct Experience Anumāna - Inference Agama - Testimony of a reliable witness With which, this logic follows -- Before you know, you rely on the testimony of a reliable witness (one who is considered to be authoritative, like an acknowledged master, or a text, etc). So you study from the Agama. Then as you are studying it, you use your inference and intellectual understanding to extrapolate what is being taught/said in terms of knowledge. All good agamas should provide a method by which one can directly experience what is being said. So along with the inferential part, you start working on the practical aspect, such that one day you can personally verify the truth as it is via direct experience. How that relates to the subject of my original response is as follows -- So supposing there are two such frameworks (as articulated above). Two sets of agama and they don't agree with each other, and there arises a need for a discourse between the two differing theories; then it behooves us to study the "other" so we can understand what they're actually saying. And then follow a framework via which the ideas can be evaluated for their "accuracy". Same method as above follows. I had posited a framework based on traditional Indic methods of debating several times on this forum. No one liked it, because it would be too difficult to follow -- meaning people have to actually do their homework and not simply 'shoot from the hip'. Here's a link to that and the expected mayhem that followed --

Summarizing the following from the interview for those who don't have the patience to watch the whole thing -- Beside the 7 major chakras, the interviewee suggests that there are "micro-chakras". There are 147 in total, of which ~ 50 are along the spine in the back and are entry points of spiritual light in the system. They feed the chakras, which are vortices of light. Beside the Ida (Left) Pingala (Right) and Sushumna (Central) channels, there are three subtle channels that exist within the Sushumna (Central channel). Each major chakra exists in the intersection of these three subtle channels Each major chakra has 7 micro-chakras corresponding to each of the 3 subtle channels within the central channel. Therefore, there are 147 micro-chakras Very interesting given that recently my master talked about 2 such points in the neck. One right below the jade pillow and the other one around the point where the cervical and thoracic vertebrae meet. He said the one below the jade pillow is where the sunlight is ingested. The one between the cervical and thoracic vertebrae is the point of primordial light's entry into the system. One of our drills is to now inhale/exhale from these two points.