dwai

I have an ancient copy of this book from the 1990s. Excellent reference material as well.

For a Self-aware person, there is no longer the delusion that the "waking, dream and deep sleep" states are the end-all and be-all of existence. He/she is not fazed by any happenings in the world (or other worlds either). He/she won't have any issues with anything naturally rising in awareness, as there is the constant cognition of being free from whatever arises and falls in these three states. In other words, there is neither resistance to what comes and goes, nor attachment. So the Self-aware person progressively becomes free (as abidance deepens). In my experience the recognition of one's True Nature is a gate through which there is no turning back to ignorance (of Self-nature). However, the causal tendencies (karma) take a while to run dry.

It goes back to what I call "awareness". It is the "light" which makes knowing possible. The "ultimate" reality, so to speak. Having a dream doesn't mean there isn't unbroken awareness, but rather, that the focus is on the story in the dream, so the unbroken awareness seems to be obscured. Similarly, in waking state, when actions happen, it appears to be a departure from this unbroken underlying awareness, but is only an obscuration due to focus on the actions/results etc. Likewise, in deep sleep, when nothing seems to happen, it is just that there are no objects in the awareness (if there were, it would not be deep sleep but dreaming or waking). The underlying unbroken awareness is never really "broken". It only appears to be so as a result of conditioning -- the mind wants to grasp at objects; and identification with the stories (personality, ego, etc etc). When one is stabilized in abiding as awareness, there is always a constant - awareness is awareness of being aware (or Self-awareness).

No lucid dreaming is not same as Turiya. But it is a step in the right direction. There are two aspects to self realization (in this context) in my experience. Knowing that the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep arise and fall in an unbroken awareness that underlies them. abiding as that awareness, knowing that IS our true nature. When that Abidance happens is when there is unbroken awareness (of being aware) throughout the three states. This doesn’t require any fancy stuff. It is a very subtle and yet very available recognition. All that is needed is for the mind to become still (which is where all the doings of the spiritual world go - i.e., effort to still the mind )

I think we've been skirting around Turiya on this thread. I know OP isn't keen to encourage discussions on Turiya, but seems like that boat has sailed long ago with many discussions spiraling around the topic. So here goes -- essentially, in my experience and humble opinion, Turiya is precisely that awareness which continues unbroken through the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep. I would venture to say, that if someone is consistently aware through the three states, they have realized their true nature. That's not to say that it is the end-all, be-all of realization, but it is certainly the gate between delusion and reality. There were some references to Turiyatita (Beyond Turiya). That is just another aspect of Turiya itself. There is no "beyond the beyond" really. What the quote below means to me is that one who knows himself as Turiya is the knower of Turiya, so is Turiyatita (using the methodology of Drik-Drshya Viveka). A bit of Advaita Vedanta here --

In the spiritual world, there are many "buzz words" and most people use them quite profusely. I propose that we try to do an exercise where we compile a list of common terms and see if our understanding of these words match. Let me start with three words we use very freely and what they mean to me. Doing exercises like this may help us avoid unnecessary arguments over misunderstandings vis-a-vis jargon and syntax and work on creating better understanding/more meaningful discourses. Awareness Consciousness Mind On the surface these three words seem to be synonyms (or at least seem to be referring to the same thing). However, if we dig a bit deeper, our personal understanding of might be more nuanced. For instance, my understanding of the words have evolved over the years from roughly meaning the same thing to meaning more specific and different "things". Awareness - This to me means the primary quality that allows one to know. This can be used synonymously, imho, with Pure Awareness or Pure Objectless Consciousness. Consciousness - This to me means awareness in conjunction with any object. Or "objective consciousness". If there are no objects (ie empty), then I call it "Pure Objectless Consciousness" and can use it synonymously with "awareness". Mind - This is a field of objects or a stream of objective consciousness. To me, Mind doesn't mean "awareness" or even consciousness, per se. It is the stream of consciousness, basically the incessant knowing of objects.

Agreed. But it at least lets us go deeper into the "mystery", so to speak than if we just stayed on the surface where people used the same words but seem to contradict each other I don't know if there's going to be any solution to this besides as freeform suggested - immerse oneself in the tradition of choice and remain within that context. But is that going to be too limiting beyond a point?

I'm using the terminology per Advaita Vedanta/Vedantic framework. The fact of the matter is, people from different backgrounds come and interact on the basis of often conditioned understandings of these type of words (so we already see multiple different ideas about what these words mean). With that in mind, what it would mean to someone with a Daoist or a dualistic background to hear "Awareness is the basis of existence. All existence appears and disappears in awareness"? And what quality of discourse would we have, if we cannot get beyond the preliminary differences in understanding how these words are used? I'm suggesting that behind these words (and their meanings ascribed based on tradition/background etc), there is a "reality" that transcends all words (Dao that can be named is not the real dao, brahman is silence, etc etc). While words are a means to get to an intellectual understanding from where one can plunge into the unknown, so to speak; the reality is ineffable, indescribable, ungraspable (by the senses), can be known without employing the mind (as a realization alone)! Introspecting on the quality of exchanges (not just here but over the years on various fora), it seems the root cause of "conflict" (as opposed to meaningful discourse) is the presumption implicit in our mental filters, as to what someone means when they use "x, y or z" to convey their ideas. Let me add an example. I say "All existence is due to the light of awareness". Someone with a taoist alchemical background would might immediately pounce upon it and claim "light is a phenomenon and there is white light and golden light and so on and so forth". But that is a complete misunderstanding of the term "light of awareness" as it has been used here. By "light of awareness" what I mean is "the illumination that facilitates knowing", and not some psychic or physical light (like white light/energy or golden light/energy).

They are all thoughts in my experience

That is a materialistic perspective. Thanks for sharing. So if you read someone like me stating that "awareness" is the basis of all existence, would that sound ridiculous to you?

I'd recommend reading this material (available at the URL provided below) -- http://www.dlshq.org/download/kundalini.htm Also would recommend finding a good yoga guru and studying under him/her. By good yoga guru, I don't mean going to a yoga studio and doing yoga postures. If you are capable of traveling, go to Mysore (Maisuru) in Karnataka, India, where there are many good yoga schools with bonafide teachers. Rishikesh in India is another good place.

Why don't you try it out and share your experiences with us?

Something like taijiquan can be a meditation in and by itself. It is called meditation in movement and if someone can meditate deeply during the taijiquan form, they’re doing very well from all aspects of meditation.

He's not a bad guy imho. Many people I know personally have greatly and positively been impacted by his teachings and methods. And furthermore, his organization does social and environmental work, such as re-forestation, projects to clean rivers of pollutants, alternative education. His target audiences are typically indian/people of indian origin. His way of speaking can surely cause irritation in people (and used to in me). But we have to look beyond the superficial and stop being too judgmental

In the Hindu context, the concept of Karma yoga exists precisely to cultivate selfless service.

Sometimes teachers don't want to accrue additional karma by accepting gifts etc. You mentioned you pay a fee for your training. That is probably as much of an exchange your teacher will accept...

While this is my personal experience, this might be true for many other practitioners as well -- It was so that when I started off with IMA, I wanted to be "powerful" without exerting too much physical effort. Over the years, I found out that the IMA (for me Taijiquan and Dao gong/Shen gong) worked in such a way that it purified my mind. Cleared junk and noise, deepening stillness. And when I was able to manifest some of the martial skills we hear of in terms of "woo woo" powers, I lost all interest in that aspect altogether. Now i just practice because I enjoy doing it

What "desireless action" means is "no personal desire". Eg: No desire for personal glory, or making money, or accruing positive karma etc. Helping people is not a personal desire (no personal gain in it) - at least that's how I understand it. One could call it "selfless service" if one so chooses...

The closest I've come to the gunas in Daoist tradition is (and its my personal opinion, fwiw) -- Rajas - Yang Tamas - Yin Sattva - Balance between yin-yang

It is Yin-yang. However can be applied in the yin way or the yang way. Nice.

The image method that worked for me was resting my butt on a giant beach ball Our (Temple style) approach is slightly different from other schools of IMA i've encountered. We actually work from outside in. And once we go in, then we work our way back out again, in an integrated fashion. For instance, our focus is on generating and activating "taiji balls". These are energetic in nature (expanding on the sensation of an energetic attraction/repulsion we get when we relax our hands and bring our palms together or pull them apart from each other). This sensation is extended to outside (sitting on a large ball of energy), rolling the ball (each taijiquan form practiced in a method called dan tsou, or single form method), splitting the ball, etc etc. This works a good way to get some of the obsessive thinking about internal alignments, etc etc out of the way and have a way to inculcate the right structure by the way of "feeling". Part of this is also a transmission that happens from teacher to student. After the basics are known, then the internal work begins, by cultivating the LDT and the MCO (small and large waterwheels). Around the intermediate level, we start working on what is called the 'indirect method', wherein, the student, having developed to ability to generate a tangible taiji ball, is then flowing with and following that ball. So upward and downward form, is following this taiji ball, which emerges from the LDT and is for all intents and purposes a copy of the LDT. What this does further is to take the awareness from changes "inside" the body (which is still really not what I would consider real "internal") to expanding the awareness to the energy field around us (some call it the energy bubble, some call it the weiqi field, macrocosmic orbit, etc etc). This field has a surface, which has surface-tension -- which really is our "Jin". Depending on our level of awareness and cultivation. The "real internal" comes when the inside and outside separation doesn't matter any more.

Those interested might want to take a look at this -- https://belurmath.org/relief/ These wonderful sages and their volunteers do service to humanity without much propaganda or publicity. Their model should be replicated world wide...desireless action (nishkāma karma) for the benefit of all mankind. This is where people seeking to practice karma yoga can volunteer their time and efforts.

That is just not true . Even today, RKM and Vedanta societies provide not only free classes but also does outreach programs, feeds people en masse. That’s been my experience since I was a child, when my grandfather would take my to free and public sessions at the RKM in my home town. To top it all, we’d get big glasses of fresh milk and cookies, again for free. I recently attended a 3 day immersive program on Mandukya Upanishad, at the Vedanta society of Chicago’s retreat center in Ganges, MI. It cost me 150$ including room, food for the 3 days, which included all day sessions with swami sarvapriyananda of Vedanta society, NY. At such places (chinmaya mission, RKM), people volunteer with services or funding per one’s ability. There might be some membership fees but even those are optional.

aye he does...quite by the hair of his Chiny-chin-chin

That's wonderful! One day, in meditation I had a vision/realization/experience. The knowledge that our true nature is ever blissful and joyous -- it is love itself, arose spontaneously. As that happened, a thought arose "If that is the case, then why is there so much pain which is interspersed with pleasure intermittently?" Right away, the knowledge arose "Pain and pleasure are like bubbles in soda. What seem like pain and pleasure to the individual personality, are just bubbles rising and falling in Being. If we narrow the field down to a handful of such occurrences, they are pain and pleasure. But when experienced at a much larger scale, they are nothing but bliss.."