dwai

Oh I've had experience that doesn't need intuition. It is called developing Ting Jin and Tong Jin. I know what I know because of firstly, personal direct experience. Second, what my teacher taught me (and his teacher taught him) besides many other fellow taiji brothers/sisters who learnt (are learning) in our system is corroborated experientially. Not a single thing my teacher has told me has not come true - everything he said has happened exactly how it happens (despite my initial skepticism). If you can't understand Qi, how can you understand Jin? How can you know the relationship between the two? Enough said...I wasn't really interested in debating you. I know your stance has not changed for many years now (since i've interacted with you on TTB). I was sharing this information for the benefit of those who might be interested in knowing about this. The rest, as they say, lies in the eating of the proverbial pudding.

The forms might have been but taiji quan is not just the forms. The forms are body movements to either accommodate the energy or to make the energy happen. The daoist masters over the ages had the energy and they would move spontaneously physically when the energy would flow through them. The students who didn't have the energy yet would copy the physical movement to induce energy flow. That's one explanation I heard for how the forms came about.

Master Liao says taiji quan started at wudan even before chan sanfeng. The first taiji classic is after all ascribed to him

Did you say master Wong was wight? I want to push with some Chen stylists. I like what I see...would love to find out first hand how good someone with a few years of practice is...

Well that confirms it for me

With my eyes. How do you read them? ;-)

Bingo! Getting the structure and movement (accelerating whole body at high speed over a short distance) will result in mind-boggling effects - can launch another object/body of similar mass across a nominal distance (like knocking someone flying over 4-5 ft). That is no ordinary feat...but still is in the realm of physical level tai chi (biomechanics and alignment, mass, velocity and momentum)... But that's different from getting " fa jjn"ed. It can feel like touching a live wire, depending on what kind of power is being used...imho

Only way I'll know about your Jin is by pushing hands with you. I'm not saying Jin can't develop by doing form work alone and you might well have developed it. But based on our widely divergent perspectives following possibilities exist - 1) you are wrong 2) I am wrong 3) we both are wrong and the truth is something else 4) we are not talking about the same thing

Glad it worked

:-) best videos I've seen or real taiji application are by Adam mizner. It's not so much about styles but about what qi and Jin are and whether the teachers know how to express/help develop them

Here's a good demo of basic fa jin capabilities - Also, another demo --

No. You are wrong :-)

Maybe you didn't understand what Chen Xiaowang said or Maybe he doesn't know what Jin is. And Jin is not electrical charge, it is like it. And you'll find lots of references to qi being condensed into the bone marrow. That's what it means - whether you like it or not. ;-)

Can't talk about it. You either got or you don't. You can't "see" it - an opponent has to feel it. One can't sense one's Jin oneself - another is needed to feel it. It is like an electrical charge stored in your bone marrow and is produced by vibrating your qi and condensing it into the bone marrow

It's not possible to assess Jin by looking at it. It has to be felt by an opponent.

If I may chime in, the answer is "Both Taiji Quan as well as "those" methods". For instance, I practice a system called "Temple Style Taiji Quan" (as taught by Master Waysun Liao). We do the form (and primarily single forms are preferred over the long form). We also do after a certain level of practice something called "Condensation breathing", which is done in a still stance and involves condensing the qi into the bone marrow - thereby producing and storing Jin. So, that is used to accelerate the development of Jin. That is the Nei Gong that is part of Taiji that many people don't get to learn.

Tai Chi Chuan is far more than just the forms. You are right, the form work (especially the long form) is like a trailer to a never-ending show (or the show that never ends)...and it starts when the audience tunes off

Cloudhands said I can't agree with that statement. Tai Chi is primarily designed to build energy sensitivity, then cultivate energy and then transform a part of that energy into power (that can be used in various ways). It has always been the primary objective of Tai Chi to cultivate energy. Martials arts is an application of tai chi, healing is an application of tai chi. Tai Chi is about connecting with Dao, by means of our Te (which is an energetic pattern that resonates with Dao within each and every one of us). I've not experienced any form or Qi Gong that is more profound or powerful than Tai Chi. But then again, the system of Tai Chi I learn has mainly standing meditations of various types and single form practice. The long form practice that is normally associated with Tai chi in popular imagination is a sidebar in our practice. It is a way for us to evaluate whether we can take the energy flow in standing/single form meditation and maintain it through transitions till the long form becomes one single form. The key is in the approach to Tai Chi. I see lots of people training tai chi to be able to using empty force (or near empty force) towards a self-defense (or sometimes even offense) objective. They have different energetic constitution from those who train tai chi with cultivation and Dao Gong in mind. What I'm trying to say is, Martial application is the lowest form of Tai Chi. It is middle school stuff.

welcome brother Fabie.

We move slowly in taiji practice to be able to do following things (imho) - ensure that movement is happening as a whole body movement (instead of limbs or torso moving separately from each other). This ensures that every movement that occurs, does with complete body generating momentum (p=mv) -- if only part of the body is moving, that reduces the "m" (Mass) in play, thereby reducing momentum, thereby reducing the force that can be generated when acted upon another object/body slow movement helps in relaxing and becoming aware of where we hold physical tension, thereby preventing us from getting to step 1 (see above) slow movement becomes meditative, helping us understand where we hold mental tension, thereby inducing physical tension, thereby preventing step 1 from happening slow movement induces relaxation, which increases our ability to sense qi flow, thereby making us aware of where there is excess/less of qi flow in the body, slow movement, after step 4, will allow us to balance qi flow through out the body, thereby creating one unified structure which then helps towards step 1 slow movement, after step 5, will help us condense the qi into the bone marrow, thereby generating Jin, which can be released without excessive physical movement, thereby refining and strengthening what is outlined in step 1. somewhere between step 1 and step 6, the "Breathing" equation gets dropped, because one must be able to express power (fa jin) whether he/she is breathing in or out. As a corollary thereof, the speed of inhalation or exhalation will become moot as well.

Yes. Spiritual types do see the world for what it is. Sometimes it is enjoyable, sometime it is contrived. But they just be...as they are. I'm slowly learning this - my teacher is like that. He just is who he is, no pretensions, no conformance. I draw inspiration from him.

The Eye of Sauron

I'd say create a sub-forum under General category. Mo Pai seems to be a hot button topic, albeit I must've missed all the kunlun and mo pai wars...not that I'm complaining It might make sense to contain the noise (we call it a broadcast domain in IT networking). I was amazed after the creation of the Buddhist sub-forum how rapidly the noise dissipated and things went back to mostly meaningful discussions again. My 2 cents worth.

It isn't. They are not the same. While I don't know the Chinese language, I do know Sanskrit and 4 other Indian languages. If someone were to argue with me that the Chakras were the various physical glands of the body, then I'd take issue. Because while the Chakras affect the glands, they are not physical organs/objects. They are energetic objects and they exist on the energetic plane. You should learn about the various levels of existence/human body. The physical, the energetic, the mental, the spiritual etc. In Sanskrit they are called Koshas (translated as sheaths). In classic yogic tradition, there are 5 such sheaths. The Chakras affect all sheaths but exist primarily in the energetic sheath (or pranamaya kosha). This is identically reflected in the Daoist as well as the Buddhist yogic framework. It is silly to conflate ancient frameworks with modern...which is what you are doing imho.

People who haven't experienced it will of course say that it doesn't exist. That is not a valid evidence of its existence or lack of it thereof. People who have experienced it won't need convincing (unless of course they are massively self-delusional) :-) To the OP, I think this topic keeps popping up every once in a while. No, you can't "rip", "break", "tear" or any other similar "destructive physical activity" your dantiens (which are the same as the chakras, imho). You can deplete your chi, and one of the things that does it is waste time and energy thinking of pointless subjects such as the original question. Thinking causes Chi to be burnt up/spent, thereby depleting the fuel in your tank (LDT). So, don't think much...do practice lots of tai chi, qi gong, nei gong, meditation, etc. The more still and relaxed you are, the more you will become aware of your Dan Tians. The more you do tai chi, qigong, etc, the more the dan-tians will become active and fuel reserve will increase. For instance, I woke up at 5 AM. Stepped out of my home at 6 AM and did Tai Chi and meditation till 7 AM. Feeling charged up and empty through and through. When you feel conflicted/confused, stop thinking, stop worrying and do some meditation or tai chi or whatever your esoteric tool for cultivation is. The more you make a habit of doing this, the more your ability to stop thinking and doing will get. if you can't stop thinking during meditation, start doing some moving meditation - like Tai Chi forms, etc. That will channelize your mind into focusing on the movement/form and thereby neutralizing the self-destructive cycle of the think-bomb in your head. Eventually whenever there is something worrying you or making you think (unnecessarily), you will do meditation automatically. Then your knowledge and judgment will come from meditation, where feeling will replace thinking. Feeling is more powerful thank thinking because feeling is real, thinking is artificial. So, trust your energy, trust your feeling and follow your instinct