dwai

the problem is with what passes off as science. I am an engineer by training and profession. One of my regular practice partners has a PhD and post-doctorate from Cornell in Quantum Chemistry. Another is an Engineer too and works on designing telecommunications equipment. Most real scientists i know are relatively open minded. Those who tout the "scientific method" (aka the vociferous skeptics) usually don't have any business or credentials to tout the scientific method. I take issue with that kind of science.

Hello all, This book is a very good one and could be a good starting point for beginners, as well as excellent supplemental material for the seasoned practitioner. http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being/dp/1590309960 Enjoy. It would be interesting to find out from any Bum who has practiced these what their experiences have been. Dwai

A wonderful articulation - here rubber meets the road....

It'll be good remember that "forcing" anything is not the Daoist way. Daoist way is about moderation, about not trying too hard. When we try too hard, we end up putting emotional and physical pressure on ourselves. Be kind to your self and to others around you. Learn to play a musical instrument or paint or something. Often, channeling your energy through an artistic medium is a good way to not only let off some of the "steam" and relieve pressure, but also a good way to develop intuition, etc.

The key to power in Taiji is relaxation (as professed by Cheng Man Ching as well as Master Liao). The Gong is hard but because of it's delicately balanced nature. It is like walking the tightrope on a single strand of silk, imho. It requires the right degree of detachment, with the right degree of focus. It requires the right degree of relaxation, as well. Too much or too little is counter-productive. It's hard to articulate and easier to do. You know what I mean?

I see your point Steve. However, I must state this wrt: Whatever that something is, it has not yet been isolated, measured, or proven. And yet it is certainly there. Is there a need to measure, isolate and prove? By what framework will this be done? If it is a Western/Modern Scientific framework, I don't think either are mature enough to go beyond an "either/or, black/white" proposition (of course that is my humble opinion as a person of science). There is neither the humility or the openness to inquire into Qi and accept it as "real". I am glad to know that your teacher's method works. My teacher is kind of like that too...he doesn't use too many words, definitions etc...a very pragmatic/practical approach. It is perhaps my relatively neophyte nature that frustrates me with the kind who can't keep an open mind regarding the esoterica.

Is the inconsistency in the terminology or the understanding of these/interpretations thereof? Once we feel Qi and Jin, what would remain as inconsistent? An intellectual interpretation (the story we tell ourselves to put things into "perspective), right? I am very skeptical about how skillful one can be at issuing Fa Jin or moving Qi if they don't believe there is something there. Kind of like this guy I mentioned, who does MCO without believing in Qi. I don't think he can get any significant benefit from it and/or his practice is wrong. Since if he had the right approach/practice, he would become sensitive to Qi flow (which is not imaginary at all....it is very tangible).

you should meet Master Waysun Liao or some of his senior students. Master Liao can "fling" people across rooms with the lightest of touches. My teacher describes his experience with such a "Fa Jing" as follows: "It was as though he (Master Liao) just lifted me up and suspended me in space and time and the world rotated till the wall hit me in the back and I fell to the ground". When my teacher did it with me, under far more controlled conditions, it felt like I'd touched a live wire. When he condenses his energy, it feels like "Iron wrapped in cotton", but there's nothing physical going on there. It is all energy.

Agreed that we could leave it without a commonly accepted label. But each of us who experience it will still label it, because that's what we do - we label, categorize and file. So, what's the harm in using the terms already created by those who traveled this path before us? Here's an interesting blog post/video by Rick Barrett. http://www.taichialchemy.com/meeting-bones-at-tca I too found that looking into the skeletal structure during push hands gives valuable insights about the partner,

Only way to know is to experience Fa Jing issued by the teacher. Doesn't have to be very intense, but enough to know that something other than physical force is being applied. Fa Jing (as I've been taught) is a waveform, pulse and has different vibratory properties - resulting in long power, cold power, short power, etc. The only physical component is the frame of the issuer and the body of the recipient.

I too agree...when we started learning, we learnt the physical form first. My teacher often tells us, that things progress like this: formless (novice) -> form (seasoned cultivator) -> formless (daoist) But its a good idea to start with a system where they clearly can teach the energetic aspect of it. Otherwise people will run the risk of becoming wannabe meatheads (or worse, meatheads) My other serious concern is with people trying to use "scientific" terminology and "methods" to teach and learn internal systems like taiji. When will people understand that Science is a different framework from Taiji (which has it's own rules, syntax etc). I mean, how hard is it really to learn and adopt the natural/native syntax (need not be the chinese terms, but the essence of the words, etc)?

There has to be a certain degree of relaxation (Sung) for Qi and power to manifest. Most people involved in physical/external aspect of the IMA miss the point and deal with muscle/strength/alignments/leverage etc. In order to be able to get to "all parts move as one", there has to be integration via Qi awareness. The guy I mentioned (the 4-decade long practitioner of Taiji Quan with a book under his belt) said he doesn't believe in Qi but does Microcosmic Orbit and other "Daoist" meditations. When asked what does he "move" in his MCO meditations, he said, it is good for stress relief and an exercise for the mind, no QI moves. These "experts" teach there is no "Dan Tians or Qi or Jin or meridians". It's all a great insider joke of the IMA masters of yore and a lack of scientific terminology of the Eastern masters. What on earth do they teach and what do they know? I can use my Goju Ryu and Aikido background to fight, using principles of Taiji (all parts connected as one, all parts move as one, etc) but that doesn't make it taiji. It doesn't develop Ting Jin, Dong Jin, Peng, Lu, An, Ji etc. Does it? What do these jokers think Peng is then? What is Lu? What is "clearly maintaining/separating the Yin and Yang?" How do they deal with double-weightedness? Do they even know that double-weighted has nothing to do with weight? The blind leading the blind I tell you...

It's weird. We all have a "loud voice" and a "quiet voice" in our heads. The quiet voice knows what is in alignment with Dao and what is not. The loud voice is Ego and will do everything to silence the quiet voice/overshadow/overload our intellects with bombast and rhetoric or fear, uncertainty and doubt. To be in alignment with Dao, we need to learn to listen to this quiet voice and ignore the loud voice. WIth time, the loud voice gets the message and stops bothering us. But it takes patience, practice and a detachment from results (but sincerity of effort).

Not sure what you mean by that. There is no Yin without Yang and no Yang without Yin. Remember the Taijitu? Even in a scenario involving two individuals, there is still an individual yin and yang as well as a collective yin and yang.

In any still stance, if energy is not moving, it is pointless. So even when you are at a stand-still, the energy is constantly moving, expanding/contracting, rising/sinking, cycling. Only in wuji stance will you not be actively moving energy, because wuji is where mind is still/empty, energy is in balance (yin and yang are balanced).

Here are my teacher's notes about a taiji stance that is similar to santi shi aka Raised hands stance -- http://www.gbolarts.com/pages/notes_archive/notes-034.html This is a very powerful meditation and will test how shung you are very quickly. At the energetic level, it feels like a expansion/contraction of the off weighted side (opening and closing of one side). Also a strong dan tian cultivation.

That book is a treasure trove of knowledge. Each time I read it (a few months apart at times), bringing deeper, more profound understanding. He covers the chi development topics of "Tai Chi Classics" in this book and in greater detail, perhaps geared towards a more beginner level practitioner. But it is valuable for practitioners of all levels.

There is no shortcut. I've been learning with my Sifu for more than a decade now and every day it seems I know less. But I guess that is a good thing, since the cup must be "really" empty to learn well. He covers some of this in his books and material, however his system is not heavy on terminology and words. It is a very practical and simple system. You don't have to learn 10,000 forms...you need to learn a handful and with the right training and mindset, to great results, imho. Also, the material is repeatedly refined. As it should with such things

It is essentially about Yuan Chi. All Taiji Chuan and Chi Gong is about reconnecting with Yuan Chi

Yuan Chi is the primordial energy...it is Dao. It doesn't need food or water or oxygen.

According to Master Waysun Liao, Yuan Chi (he also refers to it as One Chi) can felt, understood and tuned to, by purifying Chi, making it vibrate faster and faster till it resonates with the frequency of Yuan Chi (and thereby full rediscovery of one's Te - which he doesn't translate as "Virtue" but rather as an energetic pattern, an image of Yuan Chi that every being has).

Actually Master Liao and his direct students (including my situ) clearly indicate that "breath" is not equal to "Chi". To advance in TaijiChuan and Qi Gong/Nei Gong practice, one has to let go of the beginner-level prop of using breath. The breath is just a transport system for the Chi when one doesn't have the sensitivity to feel the Chi or the level of Chi to make it flow using the intention (Yi). I see where you are at...I don't think you can speak for all the Chinese masters on this topic. I realize that you take a very mechanistic view of Chi Gong and Chi in general...that might be coloring your perspective however.

My grand teacher is a chinese gentleman - Master Waysun Liao. He says Chi Kung is about cultivating Chi, not about Breath. Cheng Man Ching said the same thing...all the Chinese masters of Taoist arts have said so. Why are you translating Chi as Breath?

It can but the correct type of practice is needed. At the crux of it, Taiji Chuan is an internal cultivation practice where we increase our internal energetic vibrations to ever increasing higher frequencies till we are resonating with existence itself (Dao). Then we consider that our "Te" is realized and Te (microcosm) has reconnected with Tao (Macrocosm). People who don't know Qi as a living conscious energy will never be able to teach you Taiji Chuan that will lead to realization of your true being. In other words, Taiji Chuan is a Dao Gong (a cultivation of Dao). http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being-ebook/dp/B00AJSI7FI/ref=la_B001K8IR56_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384114786&sr=1-4 The book listed above covers how that is so and what the relationship between Taiji Chuan, Chi Gong and Tao Gong are and even teaches some very powerful Dao Gong practices which we do as part of our regular Taiji Chuan practice.

Chi Kung cultivates Chi. Breath is only focussed upon at the beginner's level. Just like Pranayama (one of the 8 limbs of Ashtanga Yoga) is not about breath cultivation. It is about Prana (Chi) cultivation.