dwai

Thanks Snowmonki Its interesting that we do the same - "try and get out of our way" with Temple Style Taiji practice as well. I'm not stating this as a way to state one is better than the other. I'm sure GoT is extremely effective. Its just interesting that the more I read about GoT it seems eerily similar to Temple Style, especially the free flowing style. We do that often, where we connect with the energy outside "our" bodies (dare I say Dao) and just try to harmonize with it. And eventually we get to a point where we don't exist anymore...just ebbing and flowing with the energy/universe/Dao. This I would consider more "in-door" teachings of Temple Style, where we practice seated meditation, standing meditation (sometimes for a good hour or so), as a totally different dimension to the Taiji Chuan part of the system.

Its because the Ego doesn't want to get to a point where it's existence is threatened. Every stage of spiritual development is one step closer to that happening and there will be many shifts like the one being discussed here. These shifts will eventually become less dramatic (progressively) till you don't even notice them. When that happens (you don't notice them), that means the Ego has disappeared and you just "are".

I like YaMu's description and supporting attestations from the others. I would love to attend a workshop if one is being held in the Chicago area.

I have a few questions wrt GoT: Does GoT work on specific energies (like Peng, Lu, Ji, An etc) or does it just work on clearing the meridians so Qi can flow better? Also, does GoT need "initiation" by the Master, in that, the Master will have to "ignite" the internal cooker/oven and then student practices daily to first keep the "fire" burning and eventually increase intensity of the fire? How does GoT treat Sky and Earth energy? In that is the focus on bringing the Sky energy down through the CP and Earth through the K1 points and then balanced in the Lower Dan Tien? Is the energetics an internal, meridian oriented one, or is it an external energy-ball/field oriented one? If so, what does one learn first? I know these are too many questions and probably are stupid and dumb. But I'd greatly appreciate YaMu or one of his other students here answering them. Best, Dwai

I have the complete works of Castaneda in my library and I am a big fan. I know that a lot of this stuff he probably made up and if he were alive today, he'd called it "Controlled Stalking" or something. But from personal experience I know there are things that he's written as having credence (at least from what I've read). I approached his books with an open mind. At that time I was living on the 8th floor of an apartment building and which I was practicing the first movement of "tensegrity" (the forefinger rubbing under the chin thing), I saw this gigantic moth flapping around in front of the window of my room (8 stories high). First - I couldn't believe that moths could get that big (so I actually checked -- it was a moth) and second - I didn't know moths could fly that high (but it did). And whether he "stole his ideas" or was "inspired by them", a lot of concepts he introduced - "the tonal (material universe), the naugal (Dao or Brahman), controlled folly (Wu Wei), etc" resonate with me even today.

http://www.iisc.ernet.in/currsci/oct25/articles20.htm one of the reasons "indologists" used to try and morph the now defunct "Aryan Invasion Theory" into "Aryan Migration Theory" (both of which claim Vedic people were either invaders or immigrants that came from Central Asia/West Asia/Europe to displace and conquer the native population of India (the so-called Dravidians) ) is that they claim the Rg Veda (oldest of the 4 vedas) referred to and revered a river named "Sarasvati" which was deemed to have been lost eventually. Since there were in the early days of indology no way to discern whether such as river even existed, Euro-centric Indologists/philologists such as Max Mueller etc off-handedly ignored internal astronomical data within the Rg Veda (which would show its oldest components were composed as early as 5000-3500 BCE) and arbitrarily (based on Christian creation myth which dated the creation of earth to 4000 BCE) assigned a date of 1500 BCE to the composition of the Rg Veda. However, the article above shows the now discovered river bed of the Saraswati River as being clearly flowing through the north-western part of Indian subcontinent and to the east of the Indus river, thereby giving credence to the group of modern/native indian indologists who support the theory that Vedic people were native to India. The geological data indicates that the Saraswati River dried up due to tectonic activity around 1900 BCE (which is also the period during which the so-called Indus Valley Civilization was deemed to have been abandoned/fallen).

I hope I didn't come across as "preachy" in anyway. My post regd. "descriptions/analogies" was a result of my experiential understanding of that matter (after having spent too much precious time trying to describe/explain the process to myself (instead of just feeling it)).

I don't understand too much theory. If you do what he says, the dan tian will rotate I think if we try and make analogies (for ourselves) with physical things, etc we will get too caught up in the words and risk missing the actual experiences. Instead of cogs, gears, wheels etc why not just simply experience it, let the dan tian expand, apply gentle contraction and let it spin (and after a while it will do it on it's own, without having to think about it at all) To repeat a part of a cliche, here's what I'm trying to say - Supposing we never saw snow before in our lives. And made up analogies about how snow is like fluffy cotton, it is cold like ice etc. But once we saw snow, we actually held it in our hands, felt it on our skin, if we didn't let go of the analogies, then we risk missing out the fact that snow is snow (and instead constantly play the various properties it tends to display - that analogies indicate). I'm saying once you get the dan tian, once it spins (without descriptions, examples, visualization), just from pure sensation and feeling, there will be no need for analogies.

Mater liao explains the dan tian rotation process thus in his book "The T'ai Ch'i Classics". I'm not quoting it verbatim but my understanding/in my words -- "As the in breath (during normal breathing) goes and strikes the navel region and with relaxed attention to that region, the sensation of an expansion will begin to develop in that region. With more relaxed practice, this sensation will become more pronounced. After a while, when this expansion starts to happen, gently contract the perineum and lower abdomen. This will cause a turning of the expanding vortex of energy (lower dan tian). The slight contraction (very gentle) of the perineum and the lower abdominal muscles will spin the dan tian in a clockwise manner (so it rotates towards the tailbone and then up the spine). With further relaxed practice of this (over a period of time), the dan tian will start spinning on its own." One could acquire a copy of his book and read more about this and other fine details of chi work. It is very effective, lucid. PS Following up, if some one was interesting in trying this out, they might want to try two ways: 1) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and exhale relax 2) inhale with slight contraction/lifting of perineum and hold that through the entire cycle (that you want to try this for -- how many ever breaths)

I think the problem is in the approach. Most people start with what is actually a 2-dimensional concept of Dan Tian or Chakras (illustrations they have seen in a book or a diagram somewhere). Then as they practice it becomes more tangible, more 3-dimensional, i.e. their locations within the "body" become more tangible. So one might feel/sense pulsations etc (seemingly physical). Then with more refinement, the energetic aspect of these become more pronounced. They start taking on certain energetic vibrational frequencies...start becoming less static. Upon further refinement they simultaneously bridge the physical, energetic, emotional and psychological. But they are not 3-dimensional anymore...they are multi-dimensional (since what dimension do emotions and the mind exist in...time, space, space in time, etc?)

You can look towards India to learn about the Avesta too (the Parsis are the last living group of zoroastrians on the planet) The Vedic people were the proto-vedic people as well. They were indigenous to India (and no major wave of immigration from outside have happened to the Indian sub-continent since the exodus out of Africa). So there were no aryan xenophobes and brutes in their chariots that invaded the Indian subcontinent. Neither did anyone overthrow the "Dravidian" natives from the so-called Indus Valley Civilization. Genetic data shows hardly any variations between the north and southern indian populations. So, there goes the "two races theory". Indian mythology separates two categories of entities - Devas and Asuras. Interestingly enough, Avestha (Aveda) calls their divine/deities "Ahura" (Asura). It is suspected that the Vedic people split into two groups early on, with one migrating farther west-ward (towards modern Iran and Iraq) and formed the Zoroastrians. Those that stayed back were the Aryas (Vedic people). I could go on..

The Vedic people are from the Indian subcontinent. They didn't move in from Central Asia or Europe as the common prevalent myth indicates.

Regarding source of Martial Arts. Imho, all martial arts evolved into arts. They were first means for self-defense, then means for warfare and finally evolved into arts. It is ludicrous to suggest that China didn't have it's own martial traditions prior to the arrival of Bodhidharma. It is also ridiculous to defend/debate influence from India on China and vice versa. Of course there was cross pollination. All cultures that have interacted have shared knowledge. My personal opinion is that most of India and China's esoteric traditions (and some martial arts are included) share a common ancestry in the himalayan mountains.

There is no evidence to prove that the so-called "indus Valley civilization" is not also the Vedic civilization. All basis for speculation over the past 100 odd years wrt this is Max Mueller's dating of the Vedas (which was biblically inspired, therefore it's scientific validity is immediately suspect). The academic opinion on this is divided neatly in two camps (those that consider IVC as "pre-/non-Vedic" vs those who consider IVC as the Indus-Sarasvati Civilization, thereby proto-Vedic/Vedic). Like I said, I'm not interested in arguments and debates regarding this. Those of us who know and study this field also know the kind of provincialism that is prevalent in academia related to this field (indology). You would do well to read some non-western narratives on this matter (especially some by indian scholars who don't have euro-centric axes to grind in this regard).

There was never any Aryan race. Arya is a term that means "Noble" in Sanskrit and has been used since the dawn of the Vedic civilization, from the times of the Indus-Sarasvati Valley. So, while there is no basis for the Nazi-Aryan link beyond the fantasies of the Nazis themselves, the statement that the "Aryans" were conquering Nomads from Central Asia/Europe is also a disproven affair (basically all speculations wrt any "Aryan invasion" or "Aryan Migration" is suspect and will over the next 2-3 decades be completely eradicated). The vedic people were the ancestors of all the original people of the Indian subcontinent. And no, I don't care to argue/debate this (been there, done that many years back).

I would recommend not spreading crap like that. The Nazis appropriated Indian traditions and history to give their ridiculous claims validity. If you don't like Indian traditions and their narrative thereoff, you are free to not read, learn, share that. Don't spread BS and malign what is a living breathing system (only non-abrahamic tradition in it's original form in the world still standing, Daoism is experiencing revival, but it was all but decimated by Chairman Mao and his goons).

Of course there is. Why would we die otherwise? Chi is life... We have a limited amount of Chi available to us. We must be wise with how we use it...purify it, exercise it to make it stronger. We can prolong the inevitable, but the physical body that survives on Chi will have to perish. That's not the say that the physical body is the end-all/be-all of everything There of course is another way -- to not be there at all...all action is the action of the infinite Chi...we are merely the instrument of action (Wei wu wei?). Some call it "no self", some call it "self realization".

You are right. The confusion, fear etc are all part of the "ego" trying to self-preserve. And also due to ignorance of the meditation process itself. That is why a good teacher is recommended. Unless one is patient and willing to endure numerous "knee-jerk pull my hand out of the fire type" reaction to this "sudden pull" (which is a sudden shift in consciousness), there won't be progress. This phenomenon is scary, at a very deep-rooted level. It takes patience and detachment from the phenomenon to deal with it(but detachment doesn't mean don't acknowledge it, it means don't obssess about it). Once one knows the true nature of the phenomenon, then he/she can approach it without fear (or gradually dissolve their fear). What i'm trying to say is it is perfectly natural and a good thing to want to know what this is.

The "pulling" you feel is just a deeper level of consciousness (less noise in the head...ie thoughts in the mind slowly reducing). You might feel a physical "rolling into a ditch" kind of sensation too (just go with it, don't let your natural reflexes kick in and pull you back out of it). It CAN be very disconcerting at first.

Without flowing energetically, LDT rotation is going to be a purely imaginary exercise initially. But on the other hand, the flow can get initiated by first imagining it (because the Qi follows the Yi).

Read master Liao's tai chi classics book - he covers the Dan tian rotation in detail in the book.

Oh and BTW, I don't think there's anything wrong with his posture. Regarding comments made about his back foot lifting off from time to time, I think it's okay since he's not flapping his front foot (which says firmly grounded when needed). Personally I don't know how useful the fixed step push hands is. I prefer a free-flowing and that's how we train. It is better to be able to move following the energy flow rather than try and move it around. When we practice push hands, we have two approaches (when we are "making chance" to apply one of the 8 energies). A yang approach (where we create the conditions under which these energies can be applied) as well as a Yin approach, where we just stick, follow and listen (to the energy). The applications automatically appear. The Yin approach is the Wu wei approach and my teacher prefers it. He often tells us - "just stick, be soft and follow and the forms will automatically appear/reveal themselves to you). There is a lot of effort in the quest to becoming effortless. I feel that Meredith espouses that "effortlessness".

Regarding deep tension -- I sense what he means...we carry a lot of emotional tension in our bodies and when taiji push hands is done with the intention of developing sensitivity (ting jing) and knowing (tong jing), we can sense this tension. It can be "locked" in a particular part of the body (as a chronic pain in one side of the back or a leg or an arm) or sometimes it is not even physical pain, it feels like a heavy/dense congestion of energy (eg: in the heart it could be from emotional trauma causing the energy to congest in the heart, or suppressing anger in the liver - an angry person's energy feels very different). When we do push hands we can sense these congestions sometimes. I started feeling for this by sending my mind/intent (yi) into the other person's body, first through the skeletal structure (literally like seeing their skeleton) and then scanning their bodies in general. Later it is a sensing of where the energy is going (like feeling where it goes during single form practice). And a combination of all three (intuition at times, more palpable/tangible at others). Regarding evoking reactions -- sometimes during push hands with my teacher I have experienced it. Sometimes a completely ilogical anger got triggered (doesn't happen any more) and luckily I had the sense and control to realize this (must be all the seated meditation I used to do) and stop myself from reacting badly. Other more severe reactions I have seen/evoked/experienced during practice with another taiji brother. Regarding energy: I think he was speaking more from perspective of letting it develop naturally, whereas in Temple Style there is a way to kick start that process (raise the frequency of the energy so to speak) via condensing breathing and other seated and standing meditations (zhan zhuang). We too suspend from the crown point. For some practices we start with the "third eye" initially and then it goes deeper to the niwan. But suspending from crown point helps keep us "light and limber" and a "floating" sensation (so we don't literally crush the ground we are standing on).

I got the book just to see what he has to say. It's interesting that a lot of what he says is precisely how we are taught in Temple Style tai chi. However, where he differs is in how we generate and store Jin. We generate and store jin in the bone marrows naturally as practice matures, but also via a process called condensing breathing. His description of deep tension and it's wild emotion/reactionary triggered responses are evident during tui shou. However, I don't like his acronyms/abbreviations and changing the traditional terminology. It took a lot away from the book (because now, not only do I have to constantly keep track of what those abbreviations mean, but also map them to what I have internalized wrt traditional taiji syntax). That is from a reading/understanding perspective.

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