dwai

So bald people are done for spiritually? Don't know about other parts of the body but in my culture a shaven head is a sign of austerity and does bring about a sense of lightness and serenity. Traditionally sons mourning the death of either of their parents have to shave their heads and I can tell from experience that it changes the psycho-emotional make-up. Also monks/renunciates have to shave in some orders. On the other hand long hair too can feel dry comforting and secure. I can't say energetically either has any bearing on us.

About a decade back, I too decided to spend time researching and trying to validate Qi. I realized it doesn't matter what you do, the established scientific community (not the really forward thinkers, but those who make a livelihood out of it), will never anything tilt their "applecart" so to speak... The problem is in the categorical framework (science is but one) that is being used. The same thing can mean two different things when using a different categorical framework. Healing in TCM or Ayurveda is different from healing in western medicine (even though the result might be same), because the logic used to explain the process of healing (and what causes the disease, what fixes it) are widely different. Just because TCM or Ayurveda has a different take on the disease process and healing doesn't mean they are wrong. They are just based on a different premise. Most people have a hard time understanding this, because they have never been exposed to the concept of categorical frameworks or because they have never known any other.

Hi TI, People I have found (increasingly so over the years) are very difficult to convince in any which way. They tend to learn from their own experiences (and mistakes thereby) far better than listening to anyone else. So I don't really care to "teach" anyone anything. And given that I'm like most people, I too tend to learn off my own experiences and mistakes. I don't really have any position to defend because I do agree with you that there are more than one way to realize the gap between thoughts. It used to happen when I practiced Yoga, Kriyas, sitting meditation, running and it happens when I practice Tai Chi. There is no other way I know of to "directly" experience that which everything rises and falls into. The mind needs to stop. That which is after the mind "stops" is what I call the "gap between thoughts". My teacher often tells us "hardest spiritual practice is to learn how to get out of our own way"... and patiently waiting for the mind to stop is the hardest "easy" practice I have ever had. Lao Tzu's "The Real Tao is that which cannot be named" and Shankara's "Brahman is silence" have never rang truer to me (and rings truer still with each passing day).

The paradox lies in being able to function in a dualistic world. Watching the gap is the only way to get started. Once you spend enough time, the gap elongates and then the "true" nature of the underlying becomes clear. Until that stage is possible, that's all we have. It seems like you are trying to suggest that you have cleared that hurdle? And are now established in satchidananda?

The observer and the observed. Very interesting topic. Who is watching and who is being watched? imho, it's not very practical to get caught up in unraveling this mystery. One thing that is pertinent however is that the observer realizes that the observed is just a stream of thoughts flowing in a field (varyingly described as a river, a stream, etc) of consciousness. The observer is necessary for the realization that the observed is nothing but a construction... What then happens to the observer? When the observer springs forth during meditation, after a while the "observed" disappears. Then the observer realizes that the emptiness that is left is nothing but itself (the gap between thoughts is the true nature of the observer). my 2 cents worth (for what it's worth)

Hi jai Narayan Puja is different from dhyana. In Puja one does external offerings of pushpam, deepam, gandham etc (flowers, light, incense, etc) while at the same time internally letting go of the senses of touch, sight, smell, etc (pratyahara). Puja is done per the guidelines of the Veda (if one is a sanatani) and is the basis of balance in the universe (yata pinde, tata brahmande - as in the microcosm, thus in the macrocosm) - rtam. It is unfortunate that we don't have the ability to learn these things from elders, teachers for the most part these days. Dhyana is what zhang zhuang is. Sure, Puja can also take us into meditative state, but the purpose of puja is as I mentioned. Best, Dwai

Why is there his overwhelming need to "win" arguments on any topic? By topic I mean spiritual topic of course. Those who know don't need to prove or disprove anything...those who don't try and massage their egos perhaps. There those who know, there are those who don't know. Wiser is one who keeps quiet when he doesn't know because he knows that he doesn't know. The fool argues and fights thinking he knows but actually he doesn't know what he doesn't yet know...

It is not possible to "tear" one's dan tien. Why? Like Steve pointed out, it is not made of physical material, it is an energy vortex. You can make it weak or strong by increasing the vibrational frequency of your energy (Qi). If it becomes too weak, it results in poor health and one eventually dies. If it is strong, there are associated health benefits from it as well as the ability to influence one's environment energetically.

All directions

The lower dan tien is a vortex of energy and it spins and moves around, albeit in the vicinity of the navel. It's location, intensity etc varies from person to person. My teacher tells us to think of it like a star, and more so, with practice of arts like taiji chuan it should condense and become more and more densely packed with energy (like a star with it's mass collapsing into itself)...till it can become as tiny a point as it can. Dan tien discussions, imho cannot be valid without experiencing Qi and knowing Qi. In the system that I learn, the dan tien is the seat of Te (as in Tao /Te) and is the Tao at a microcosmic level. When one truly connects with the Te (by refining and strengthening the dan tien), they also truly connect with the Tao. Master Waysun Liao (my teacher's teacher) likens the Te to a radio receiver/transmitter that needs to be tuned to the same frequency as the Tao.

One day I stepped out into a green meadow Dawn just broken and the sky was still grey I closed my eyes and reached into the sky while reaching down into the ground, all the way The vastness of space between the sky and the earth disappeared in a moment of ascending grace The mother that she is she lovingly looked down upon me yet I stood stock still On her beautiful face

And that's a good way to be I wish I could be that way always...

I find it in a simple thing like standing. When I stand without aspirations to create/re-create any particular state that I've experienced before (something a lot of people tend to do I think), the qi rises naturally from the earth. When I stand with the intention of creating/recreating any particular state, it doesn't rise naturally from the earth. Several years ago, when I was doing the tai chi forms in seated position, I starting feeling the qi very palpably. The taichi ball I was playing with, would expand and contract with associated somatic effects. Next time i was in class, I excitedly told my teacher about the "experience". He smiled and said "now that you have spoken about it, you won't experience it again in general, but you will experience it again, when you are least expecting it". That was so true...and so I try to practice as follows -- "don't try anything...it will happen when it has to, on it's own, naturally".

I apologize as well since I do have tremendous respect for you and your knowledge ( which incidentally I don't need to meet you in person/ see a demo to know). I stayed away from TTB for a while to avoid these type of situations. I guess it's time again.

My comment was directed at your evidently disparaging remark about Yoga in general and the 330 million deities that you find distasteful. There are about 1.2 billion people who don't agree with you, but they also don't bother anyone else with their beliefs nor try to push these down anyone else's throats. Your experience doesn't make something inherently difficult or easy for anyone other than yourself. That was not evident in your generalization about Yoga. I do catch your drift however. Yoga is a very personal journey and is not predicated upon the perfection of your asanas. It is predicated however, upon what you do with your asanas. My yoga teacher taught a simple series of 15 poses and 4 specific pranayama techniques, the asanas opened up the channels and pranayama activated the sushumna. It took less than one year of practice to get there. It was simple, not complicated at all. There was no "end-state" defined, you do the practice, you get the results. It is exactly like Taichi and other daoist meditation I have learnt from my teacher. There is no "end-state", you do the practice, you get the result. In my experience, those seeking complicated, get complicated. Then they learn and begin to identify the less complicated. You get my drift?

So yoga is just soon asanas?!? Gotta admit these "yogis" and "yoginis" are something else...they sure do know their uthita padmasanas from their pinchchamayurasanas ;-) I don't need to show you anything. I respect your Taichi and Tao knowledge. That doesn't make you an expert on yoga

The 33 million deities is a myth. There were 33 deities originally in the Vedic narrative. Half-baked knowledge leads to half-baked conclusions

The thing is, Yoga is very simple. It is us who tend to complicate it by looking for "hidden practices and secrets things". Yoga is a science...you do the practice, you get the results, right?

these melodies etc that NAJA These sounds/melodies you can hear are called "Anahata" sounds and are unsounded sounds, internal sounds. About a decade back, when I used to meditate several hours a day, I would hear the sounds too. Usually used to follow a particular sequence of pranayam exercises -- Bhastrika (Bellows breath) Kapalabhati (skull shining) Brhramari (Bee breath). The sounds would arise a few minutes after I finished the cycles. I would hear bells, flutes, chants, etc. These are documented as anahata sounds and are said to arise from the heart chakra (anahata chakra).

The most resounding "Omkar" I heard was during a Taoist circle meditation that my teacher guided us through. There were 4 women and four men in the circle and we meditated for a good 45 minutes or so, standing. The Omkar I heard was so loud it drowned everything else, including my thoughts. It was a very low frequency rumble, resonating and rising and falling in a sinusoid. When it first started, I thought it was the rumble of an industrial grade fan (albeit very melodic). I realized that there were no industrial grade fans in the area where we were meditating.

Om is also called the Pranava. Etymology of Pranava is "Pra" + "Ana" + "Va" - it means "that which one experiences, one speaks out instead". Thereby, Om is the sound that one hears/speaks out as one experiences the Ultimate Consciousness. So, it bodes to logic that when one has not yet experienced the Ultimate Consicousness (Brahman), one can immerse oneself in the sound till only the sound exists, and thereby experience Brahman. A great discussion by Bhadraiah Malampalli is here -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VedicRitual/message/733 The Nada-Bindu Upanishad describes "Om" as a bird. It's Right wing the syllable "A", the left wing the syllable "U" and it's body the syllable "M". The head is the half-metre (ardha matra). A discussion on Ardha matra (or half-metre) is here: http://www.themeditationcenter.org/jnana/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129

after the initial learning phase, it is not necessary to "focus" on breathing. It becomes natural...breathing in from the abdomen...breathing out...reverse breathing, regular breathing, etc. The energy is what matters...breathing is secondary. If considering taiji chuan, we should be able to peng, lu, ji, an etc without thinking about breathing in or out. We should be able to do these during in-breath, out-breath or no-breath

I have hidden additional posts that were not only irrelevant to the topic at hand, but were derailing the discussion of Vedanta Basics. My intention with this topic was to create a repository that chalks out the basics of Vedanta, the terminology, description/brief commentary on the various "technical" terms and open the OP for discussion/edition based on mutual understanding. Treat this topic like a technical discussion of Vedanta and it's various systems, a Vedanta 101 if I may use that term. I consider subjects like it's relation to Buddhism etc are irrelevant to understanding Vedanta as it stands on its own. There will be occasions when we should definitely use Vedanta to look at/analyze alternate systems, but that is from a perspective of using the Vedantic hermeneutics as a framework, to attain better understanding of the Vedantic perspective. The Buddhist or Taoist sub-forums are perfect vehicles to do the same vis-a-vis Vedanta using those frameworks as lenses. We can discuss the virtues (or lack thereof) of this approach, and please do start another thread where this can be discussed. But I request that we stick to the intent of the OP on this specific thread. Participants are encouraged to start alternate threads that they wish to discuss (I do notice Alwayson started something like that on the Buddhist sub-forum).