dwai

You two are always on the buddhist agenda aren't you? Hilarious! moreover, if you showed an iota of sincerity and open-mindedness that Rajiv Malhotra does (I HAVE interacted with him in person many times), you would far better serve your buddhist crusade. Next time you have a buddhist agenda to forward, take it up in the Buddhabum sub forum. I am not going to engage in these topics on this forum with you any more.

Absolutely. Just like how Indic studies are currently in the stranglehold of dubious scholars of Marxist persuasions within india and of morons who can't even read or write the native languages in the west and must be freed from their toxicity.

Bob, Discrimination is a systemic thing. It is at an institutional level. I haven't seen the discrimination of one caste towards another in my everyday experiences in India. Even if I have, they have been one-offs. If you look at the political make-up in India, you will find that majority of political powers are controlled by those of the "backward" castes. To those who claim that the so-called "Forward" castes are instigators and perpetrators of discrimination, then my question is - How is it that despite the political powers that be being from these "backward castes", and the rampant "socialist and egalitarian" agendas/manifestos of these elected representatives of the majority in India -- and have been in power for more than half of independent India's lifespan ( 1947 - now), has this not be resolved? The answer is very simple -- there are political fruits to be reaped, by creating a false sense of discord and identity chasms. The politicians then continue to stay in power (not just with the caste-divide, but with communal divisions, even the mythical Aryan-Dravidian divisions rampant in some parts of Souther India). These topics become louder every time during elections (at various levels). No one resolves these "issues" and I would venture to say that most of these issues are really non-issues. They are fabricated or blown out of proportion, to fan sentiments among the general population and garner votes for one group or another. And you know who falls for this the most? The impoverished lots. Aren't the statistics telling? On an average close to 70% of all privileges are "reserved" for the backward castes. But rampant corruption at the bureaucratic and governmental levels ensure that the very elected representatives of these backward castes end up sucking their lifeblood. The only progressive party to emerge in India (since independence) was branded a "Hindu Right Wing Chauvinistic" one -- and when they did get control of the government for 9-odd years in the decade of 1990-2000, India made the most progress. It is a long topic of discussion and a lot of background information needs to be revealed and processed for someone to even begin to understand it. In any case, TTB is not a political forum and I will not post any more of my observations on this matter any further.

Indeed -- it's always better business to sell sensationalized stories and make documentaries that tugs at the heartstrings. Here is the Wall Street Journal chronicling the state of Caste-based "privileges" in India today... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119889387595256961.html Caste based discriminations are perpetrated within the so-called "lower castes" more than a so-called "upper caste" individuals. In order to understand the socio-political and socio-economic conditions in India, one has to understand the difference between the two words "Varna" (or Hue) and Jati (Tribe). Most of the ills ascribed to Caste (ie Upper-caste vs Lower-caste and so on) is actually a result of Tribal (Jati) identities. And these have nothing to do with the original Varna-system (based on profession). The biggest problem in India today is the lack of a system that promotes merit and growth based on one's own skills and intellectual proficiency. A model that is so successful in the US (especially) - people call it capitalism. Once a system like that is put in place (which was the original purpose of BR Ambedkar's Affirmative Action program when the Indian Constitution was written -- ie to be phased out in a span of 12-15 years - effectively by 1965). It got effectively hijacked by politicians who legislated amendment after amendment to the Indian constitution until almost 70% of all privileges in India goes to the "backward" castes (in education, government jobs, etc). There was also a push to implement this in the private sector, which would effectively destroy the very fabric of Indian enterprise (which succeeds in spite of the bufoons in the Government and bureaucracy). State GEN OBC SC ST OTH / NA AP 26% 49% 18% 7% 0% Arunachal 25% 5% 6% 62% 2% Assam 50% 22% 13% 10% 5% Bihar 22% 59% 19% 1% 0% Chattisgarh 11% 45% 14% 30% 0% Delhi 67% 14% 17% 1% 1% Goa 70% 17% 5% 5% 3% Gujarat 35% 39% 15% 11% 0% HP 61% 14% 20% 5% 0% Haryana 52% 23% 25% 0% 0% J&K 68% 10% 13% 9% 0% Jharkhand 16% 45% 11% 28% 0% Karnataka 28% 44% 15% 6% 7% Kerala 56% 31% 11% 2% 0% MP 21% 40% 18% 21% 0% Maharashtra 47% 26% 16% 11% 0% Manipur 55% 12% 7% 26% 0% Meghalaya 9% 3% 7% 81% 0% Mizoram 3% 1% 1% 95% 0% Nagaland 8% 14% 5% 73% 0% Orissa 30% 27% 20% 23% 0% Punjab 58% 10% 32% 0% 0% Rajastan 22% 45% 19% 14% 0% Sikkim 14% 41% 9% 36% 0% TN 2% 75% 22% 1% 0% Tripura 39% 21% 23% 17% 0% Uttarakhand 62% 15% 21% 3% 0% UP 24% 50% 25% 1% 0% WB 34% 24% 26% 16% 0% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_caste

https://taichitaocenter.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=6 This has the basics...you might want to start here.

There is a huge set of material on DVDs at the taichitaocenter.com Depending on how much background you already have, you can choose the material. I personally own 10 titles - all were gold standard stuff

http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Your-Life-Energy-Well-Being/dp/1590309960/ref=la_B001K8IR56_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1361559316&sr=1-6 Master liao covers some very important standing meditations of temple style tai chi. Temple style has single form practice which incorporates holding specific forms like taichi stance, raise hands stance, etc. they are all zhang zuang

Don't beat yourself up for this. Most negativity is triggered by losing the center. Be centered and you will see yourself separating yourself from the negativity. Also know that everyone goes through these phases...life is full of stress and stress unbalances our centered-ness. So when feeling stressed just breath easy and deep (even asthma related anxiety can be reduced via focusing on the center). Harder we try to hold on to something the faster it slips away, and every day is a new beginning so no loss if we slip up today... Tomorrow will be a new beginning. The day can be reduced into hours, hours minutes and minutes seconds. So literally every second is a new beginning to get back into harmony PS -- I'm not a sage, just a dummy who has lived and learnt. :-)

My circle of friends include Muslims, Christians and Hindus of various backgrounds. People from all over the nation - northeast, east, north, west and south. We mostly didn't care about these identities or even care to know who was from which background - we were friends, period. I would like to believe that most Indians are like how we were... Sure there are pockets in rural areas and more under-developed areas where identity-based issues exist, but they are exceptions rather than the norm. I remember one of my friends in university was a Muslim and another a South Indian Madhava Brahmin, a vegetarian. We would visit my Muslim friend's home to celebrate Ramadan and this pure vegetarian would eat rice cooked with meat in spirit of celebrating another friend's religious event. The Muslim friend would partake in prasada ( sacred offerings to Hindu Gods) with no issues whatsoever. There were no caste, communal or any other kind of discord. And we were from diverse backgrounds, both economic and otherwise. When I see the younger generations while visiting india now I see much of the same... BR Ambedkar was one of modern India's founding fathers. He was a great scholar and egalitarian. However even his great work has been appropriated for political vested interests. Indian identity politics is a huge topic and it would take a very long time indeed for outsiders to understand it. It is not something that can be studied with a reductionist framework...

Anachronism is the biggest hurdle in understanding traditional texts...

I am leery of such generalized pronouncements. There are a lot of vested interest groups that create and promote propaganda that is malicious towards the traditional Hindu society and try and blame all sorts of social aberrations on Hinduism. While it might be partially true and indeed very tragic that the devadasi system became corrupted and abusive towards the devadasis, the system itself begun as a way to cultivate higher culture and traditional art forms. Stereotyping Indian (specifically Hindu culture) with the caste, cows and curries label is an old trick in the bag of imperialistic agendas that unfortunately haven't disappeared yet. I lived in 3 different states between east, north and southern india for the first 26 years of my life. I have not encountered any such aberrations in the course of my time spent there. I can say that others in my vast circle of friends and families have had similar experiences. There are lots of political and financial implications of making such studies and warped analyses -- it's a long story and I don't have the time right now to get into ( you might have come across some such topics in course of your reason rajiv Malhotra, who has done an excellent job exposing such vested interests). A good book on this topic would be "Breaking India" co-authored by rajiv...

That is incorrect. Indian classical dance forms have been practised in both north and south india for thousands of years. You really need to learn indian history properly.

Devadasis were a relatively insulated South Indian phenomenon. And they were not "prostitutes"...they were artists that devoted their lives to worship through their art. You believe everything you see on YouTube?

Good lord! Where do you learn all this crap from?!?

Seriously?!? You have no idea what you are taking about.

You mean like "electricity"?

Perhaps instead of metaphor you meant "label?". Of course, labels don't have any value besides providing a way to communicate the meaning of something (or represent a concept, thing, etc)...But they do communicate about something very exact (for the most part). If you did mean metaphor then my question would be - "metaphor for what?"

If sufficient number of individuals have similar personal experiences and understanding then that constitutes empirical evidence

Qi is not a metaphor. It is as real as heat, cold, electricity...

Not sure I understand that. Yin and yang are opposites. One feels light and the other dense. But at the same time one feels full and another empty. My limited experience has been that there never one or the other, they are always together. Too much of one ends up in the other...a constant dance so to speak. For eg the Taichi form roll back, is considered yin but feels like emptiness that sucks in fullness of the practice partner's yang (say ward off)... I can't think of labeling one as always one way or another (ie ethereal vs physical, etc)

I was actually pointing to the poll as a means to ascertain what percentage of us here actually practice IMA and qi gong as true internal cultivation methods. Those who do can then naturally move towards modeling their lives with energy as a yardstick (for lack of a better statement). Those who don't will of course not model their lives with energy as a yardstick. I don't of course mean this with anyone specifically in mind. But my experiences on various fora is that general tilt is towards externalizing the internal arts (no pun intended).... Point is that those who have cultivated for an extended period of time naturally gravitate towards what Dawei indicated. At Least that's my understanding with my immediate circle of friends and practice partners...and of course my teacher.

An interesting exercise would be to poll how many bums believe chi is real energy and not some bio mechanical efficiency measure. If bums in general are familiar with and work with chi I think a lot of arguments/debates would be moot. Albeit then the forums and community might not be as vibrant because we would agree with each other to a large extent, thereby eliminating the need for elaborate posts etc. In retrospect maybe that's why the Taoist sub forum is less active than the buddhabum and general sub forums...

I've always said that

I have learnt both...they are related

While the Nath sampraday might have poprlarized Hatha yoga, Hatha yoga does not have to be exclusively "real yoga". Patanjali's yoga sutras consider asana and pranayama (Hatha yoga) as two limbs of the 8 in total.