dwai

And now for the obvious rhetorical conclusion: Maybe this idea of only allowing oneself the use of one theoretical framework at a time, is something to look into. --- Sage advice

Isnt it better to find a partner who will practice these techniques with you? So you actually fet to balance the yin and yang, instead of the overdose of yang...imagery that stimulates the sensory organs...yang on yang. I do hope tht the op's objective is balance...

My take on wuwei is that it is action without desire. In that you do wht is needed because it is necessary to do it. You dont do too much or too little...just right. Tht just right means the amount you do, the quality you do and the time when you do it. Action with desire always ends up in too much or too little, too soon or too late... Wu wei is acting without (the desire of) acting...only filling something that needs filling or emptying out that needs emptying. How do we know when it is the case? By being one with the natural rythm of things...

Where did i read it before? Chidragon speaks doesnt know....daodejing knows doesnt speak...

Much UniCHI to you as well... But if you ask me i will tell you the more we verbalize the Tao, the farther we go from it.

if you go talk to a samkhya person they will tell you that buddhism is not a complete philosophy since it is nihilistic. There are lot of very useful and practical insights to be got from all darshanas. And you are mistaken in that during buddha's time there were no masters with attainment. The buddh's way is not the only way...so while a spoilt brat of a prince might have had different needs from that of say a poor man's kid, that doesnt mean the other ways were wrong...

The Buddha had the samhkya, vedanta and jaina teachers to learn from. So not all of hs "realization" came out of "nothing"

No...they are not the same, imho.

I dont know why i must partake in your self-inflicted starvation...

Well then you ARE one of the 'many'.

Alaya vijnana is a clever way to try and fit a round peg in a square hole It explains nothing, only muddies the water. I find infinite streams of eternally flowing consciousness interconnected with each other a far more complicated and therefore inadequate explanation of the eternal consciousness experienced, that is simple in its solitariness

In turiya, ie state of no thoughts, you are essentially awake with no mind objects. There are no objects but there is awareness...it is not a dead void but emptiness that is alive. It s difficult to find words to express...it simply is. Gaps between consciousness? You mean memory of being being conscious, right? The knowlege of whether you feel you are consious or not, is an intellectual analysis. so gaps in consiousness are only gaps in remembrance...imho, there never is a gap in consciousness. Even so called deep sleep...there have been eperiments done in which subjects are awakened from deep sleep and they remember dreams. So deep sleep is not even turiya...as o why we dont remember? I cant say....

What many folks call mind/consciousness is actually a field of thoughts in consciousness....a stream of objects actually. It is akin to debris floating on water, not the water itslf. The water is Consciousness, which exists irrespective of the mind (ie whether you are in mind-state or in no-mind state). The biggest problem of translating untranslatables of sanskrit into english is the fact that there isnt really an equivalent in english...so we end up relying on approximations...

How about "Po Pai" -- eat spinach and develop your Chi power

What you consider consciousness is only objective consciousness. There is another consciousness on which these objects are superimposed. That is eternal and unbroken...like the the space itself is. This is evident in the gap between thoughts...when there are no thoughts do you have consciousness or not? And to elaborate as to why Consciousness is eternal (further) -- When one is aware of the connectedness of all things (like ruffles on the same fabric or waves of the same ocean), unless consciousness is not eternal and continuous, the phenomena that are externally disparate (like the life and death of a bug or a dog or an elephant or a tree -- which chronologically are of different lengths and may have existed in different times) cannot seem connected. There are many clever arguments made for and against it by seemingly opposing camps (like advaita vedanta and Buddhists and within various systems within vedanta or buddhism themselves). But my stupid mind cannot grasp the complexity of these arguments. I know from experience that the simplest explanation is most likely the best explanation in the grand scheme of things. And the simplicity of the theory of the interconnectedness of all consciousness, reinforced in the gap between thoughts is evidence (in my humble opinion).

You already won brownie points with your candor. I won't comment about Thunderheart

Simple_Jack == Vajrahridaya?

Is that really true? How do you know? Also, if you have had a Unity moment, all these speculations will be dispelled.

True, But I don't have to show you anything because I'm not obligated to. I have expressed my opinions based on my experiences. If you have had similar experiences, you will nod your head in agreement and say to yourself "Ah yes I know what he means" or you will say "he's delusional, that's not what I experienced". However, let us be clear on one fact -- "All experience is colored by the interpretation after the fact". Pure experience creates knowledge but we tend to color it over the passage of time and while the kernel of the knowledge might remain intact, the outer structure changes with time. I don't know how else to explain these things besides slightly terse, borderline cryptic statements. Contrary to popularized spiritual fiction, spiritual growth (in my most humble opinion) is not grand explosions of visions and realizations but rather a slow, boringly simple process of gradual discarding of erroneous knowledge and uncovering of the real deal. It's like a sculptor's slow and laborious work of taking a block of granite and chiseling it away till the magnificent sculpture is uncovered. The problem I see with many participants on internet forums is that they seem to have this over-romanticised concept of spiritual advancement and enlightenment (which really, again, imho, happens only at beginner levels). There are probably many on this board who are far more enlightened than most others but they might not have a clue since they too subscribe to the grand theory of enlightenment (thunder rolls, lightning flashes and all).

Sometimes it just makes sense without knowing how. It is called "Knowing" (directly). Sometimes we just know...without any intellectual mechanism actually firing.

Gee MH, I never pegged you for one of those "non-selfers"!

Dear Manitou, Ego and humility are two sides of the same coin. True humility is not lack of ego but inspire of ego, imho. Ego is something we cannot live without, unless we have completely transcended human frailties. I haven't met too many people who have, so there's not much of a way around it. The one thing that I have felt the need to watch out for is false humility. In my culture (and most asian cultures) there is a "formal" humility that is part of our social etiquette, which has nothing at all to do with truly being humble. This humility is hypocritical to a large extent. While I know that your post deals with a much more visceral version of it, it is not entirely impractical to inquire whether there might be elements of this "formal" humility in play (inadvertently cultivated into one's behavior). I also realized a while back that it is not practical to live like a sage in this world. At least not while we have to work and participate in this world as functional components. Being too humble and sagacious will only leave us as doormats. There has to be a right mix of humility and toughness...softness and hardness (balance of yin and yang). Not everyone deserves to be met with the same softness. Some need "tough love" while others need "tender lovin'" if you know what I mean...which one needs which we have to decide based on time. I have struggled with temper growing up and got to a point where I thought i had conquered anger. But all I had done in hindsight is internalized part of the anger (and potentially afflicted my liver in the process). So now, I crave some yang martial activities...something to take all the pent up anger/frustration of the day out (I used to on the mat or in full-contact sparring)...something i am not able to do with taiji quan practice. I found running helps somewhat, but not the same as pounding a heavy bag or sparring full-contact with another human being.

And it this exact self/Self that cannot be shown as being dependently originated without taking massive flights of fanciful imagination.