dwai

I have only one thing to add to this already long and pointless debate. You mwight are probably not all-knowing. So, your knowledge or lack of it thereof doesn't condition the veracity of any practice. Sure, you want proof. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Find a good master and learn Mantra meditation from him/her. You will get the result that is proportional to the effort you put in. Incidentally, are you familiar with the "Hng" and "Hah" meditation in Taoist practices? You practice with these sounds. We also meditate by vibrating our Dan tien with the sound of gongs. These are props that are a means to an end.

You can chant Mantras into a trance or you can attain liberation, merge with the Tao. That's what I've been trying to articulate -- the power of Mantra is limited by the level and intelligence of the practitioner and the accuracy of approach. It's the same with Nei Gung...wouldn't you say so? What kind of objective Scientific research have you come across on Taoist Nei Gung that will stand under the scrutiny of a materialist scientific study? I'm interested in knowing..will add to my collection of material used in refuting and debating Material Scientists. You are right. But perhaps Mimic is not the appropriate word -- practice maybe? Mimic gives the sense of mindless automaton-like imitation. Okay...Let me recommend you look up the Theory of Bio-cultures. It postulates that depending on the culture a subject is born into (and belongs to), a specific part of the brain leads his/her interaction with the world. This in turn defines how the subject perceives and interprets sensory stimuli. Bottom line is that there is no "right way or wrong way" to perceive and interpret things. Based on one's bioculture, sensory as well as interpretive apparatuses vary and work. Take some time to read this article -- it's a very good starter to understanding why/how people of different backgrounds have different insights and experiences with things. Neurobiology and Yoga -- From the gods of the Amygdala to the God of the Heart The more I observe the behaviors and approaches of different types of people, the biocultural theory seems more and more plausible and infact logical to me.

Systems like Yoga and Taoist Nei gung indeed are very systematic and pragmatic ways to experience Infinity. And my limited exposure to Magick etc tells me that a lot of the New-agey stuff that's happening out there might be haphazard and not very practically organized. But the roots of these systems have some depth to them. For instance, The Native American's way of experiencing Infinity is as bonafide as that of a Taoist or a Yogi. The end result is what matters, the methods are just means to the end. Based on one's practice the results will come sooner or later. The results will be benign or malignant. The effects will be sublime or violent. I took exception to your statement that Mantras are bogus. It is obvious that you did not know enough about Mantras to make that judgment. Similarly, isn't it possible that your knowledge in the subject of Wicca is inadequate and that you might not be very well equipped to make a judgment? Best, Dwai

The role of Mantra meditation -- Just the same as you would use Tai Chi forms or Yoga Asanas to quieten the mind, Mantras work in exactly the same way. By focusing you active mind on the task of repeating mantras, you are silencing your mind. The sounds that constitute any valid mantra have to resonate and especially in sanskrit mantras, the words have effects on different parts of the body. The resonance/vibrations thus induced will result in blockages being released, thus increasing the flow of energy, helping in soong. Your statement about hard evidence seems like that of a material scientist questioning the veracity of Chi or Prana. Are you one of those Taoists who think Chi doesn't exist but is only the "biomechanical alignments" of the physical body?

You don't need a Thomas Ashley-Farrand to teach you mantra. There are absolutely no one-size-fits all when it comes to Mantra meditation. The things that matter are how a Mantra resonates with you and who initiated you into the Mantra or how you came about it. I was given the Gayatri Mantra in the Rig Vedic tradition as that has been my family tradition for thousands of years. I was given the Vasudeva mantra in a dream by a Sadhu when I was going to through an especially tumultuous phase in my life. Some Mantras will draw you automatically (by power of resonance). The special thing about Mantras is in the Meter (known as Chchanda in Sanskrit) and the pronunciation. Before starting Sanskrit mantras, it is very important to first learn how to pronounce the letters of Sanskrit correctly. There are 50 letters in Sanskrit (as opposed to the 26 in English) and there is a proper manner in which they are pronounced. Learning the proper pronunciation, meter, inflection and intonation is paramount if you want to have a successful Mantra meditation practice. Gayatri -- A starter course (I just met this teacher a couple days back) --

My teacher tells me that with time (and practice), the vibrational frequency of one's energy goes up and we will stop picking up most of the negative influences out there. One has to be careful not to connect with the negative energy nonetheless. But that is when you are not healing. When you are healing, how can you not connect? I must ask him.

Your understanding of Guru is a typical semi-informed western one. Guru literally means "remover of ignorance" (in Sanskrit). You can love, respect your Guru. The concept of Slavishness as associated with the Guru-Chela/Shishya tradition because the feeling of slavishness exists in those minds.

Diwali also coincides with the worship of the Divine Mother Kali and her victory over forces of Ignorance. So here's wishing you all a happy Diwali and praying that Mother Kali cuts through the veils of ignorance we all wear and let the Te and Tao shine forth.

Wasn't Chang San-feng a taoist monk? So odds are that he had probably a very sound foundation in Taoist meditation and techniques. Buddha (as in Siddhartha Gautama) was an Indian prince who had extensive training in both Classical Indian Metaphysics as well as the esoteric and exoteric teachings of his time. He didn't happen to suddenly become Buddha. Buddhism is nothing but a take on Advaita Vedanta (the finest of the Vedantic traditions of India). How do you know when you have progressed vs when you start deluding yourself. You need someone who has gone before you to show you the way. It's like saying I will get from New York to San Francisco but with no map or asking no one for directions. Sure, you might get there. But chances are that you might not. If you do get there, odds are you will take much longer than you would if you didn't see the map and/or ask someone for directions. A good teacher is a reliable map and a source for valuable information and insight. That said, a true teacher will show up if the student is sincere and his/her desire to learn is real. Your odds of interpreting the Tao te Ching without the commentary by a true master is probably not even as good as understanding the The Theory of Relativity without being taught by an accomplished teacher what it means. Deeper practice perhaps leads to deeper insights. But there needs to be a guide to show you right from wrong. There might be exceptions, but those are very very rare indeed. This is the reason why the Teacher is held in such high regards within Eastern Cultures (India, China, Japan, etc). The Teacher-Disciple tradition calls for sincerity on both sides and devotion to each other. Like a Parent to his/her Child. And like the Child to his/her Parent. There has to be love, devotion, respect and faith.

These were revealed to the Vedic Seers when they were immersed deep in meditation. Also, the effects of these sounds are there for anyone to experientially verify. Mantras are not by themselves primordial sounds, but combinations of the 50 basic sounds that form the foundation for Sanskrit as a language. But I guess there will always be skeptics...so there is nothing more to say about it. The proof of the pudding is in it's eating...

Here's another very powerful composition -- Mahishasura Mardini

I haven't got much of an idea about Wicca. But Mantra chanting is not "Bogus" like the other commenter has suggested. Mantras that are in Sanskrit contain energy that is activated when resonated (there are four levels of Mantra chanting...in fact of speech -- Vaikhari, Madhayama, Pashyanti and Para) via practice. They also act as an excellent tool towards silencing the mind. Sanskrit because the 50 basic sounds/alphabets of Sanskrit are primordial sounds that tap into various energetic configurations of the Universe. Mantras are composed in various meters (rythms) and these meters have specific effect on the practitioner/listener. Please look up Devi Sahasranama (or Lalita Sahasranama) Lalita Sahasranama -- The Thousand Names of the Divine Mother. Lalita Sahasranama on Youtube As the saying goes -- the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Happy Dipavali to you too SV. Do you want to share some of the insights you might have gleamed from reading Sri Bodri's book?

Working on agitating your energy and expecting a good night's sleep is like looking for water in a desert. There has to be a methodical and careful preparation before you can start playing with your chakras. Traditional Yoga practice talks about the Eight-limbs way (Ashtanga) which calls for a disciplined effort to cultivate your prana and involves following yamas, niyamas (ideal way to conduct oneself and do's and don'ts that should be cultivated). Then you have Asanas (Yoga postures), Pranayama (Breath practices). These activate your chakras and help driving your prana up from the moola to the sahasrara (or from the perinium to the crown point). Along the way, you have to practice pratyahara (sense-withdrawal), dharana (intent), dhyana (meditation) and samadhi (realization). It is the same with any tradition, be it Yoga or Taoist meditation -- whether it is specifically mentioned or not. You will cause harm to yourself if you excite your prana without proper preparation. If you want restful sleep, do Yoga asanas. Prana cultivation (Chi Gung) is for people who want to follow the spiritual path.

Why? Is there a necessary pre-condition that a teacher has to teach all Tao material for free? And does charging money dilute or negate the teachings in any way? So may be you wanna think again...not everything in this world is for free.

I think you should not pass judgments without either trying out the man's style of training or reading his books. From your posts it seems obvious that you haven't read anything he has written. Each of his books are profoundly informative, with absolutely no gimmicks involved (he doesn't try and sell you anything). A lot of what you'll see at his website is a creation of his students (He believes in Wu Wei and goes with the flow, I'm told by a very reliable source). Anyone who has attended classes at his center in Oak Park, IL or studied with any of his students will not doubt anything he writes. Master Liao is for real. I'd strongly recommend reading "Nine Nights" along with his other books, including "Tai Chi Classics". I'd also recommend interested seekers to try out his style of Tai Chi (called Temple style Tai Chi) which predominantly deals with single-form practice. After each single form is learnt and felt, the long form is put together and is posed as a challenge to the student to retain flow during the various stages and in between transitions.

As he commented, to howls of outrage by some 'traditionalists', the correct solo training of the body is the difference between getting the remarkable abilities of the top Aiki masters, or not. Not only that, but that this training has been a core part of martial arts from other countries, notably the internal arts of China. Nothing mystical, not qi, but the correct training of the body. Physical exercises that develop a refined body awareness. Hi Mike, Thanks for an excellent post. I have only one thing to say -- the whole idea that Qi is mystical is a misunderstanding of the phenomenon (imho, since I've probably not practiced as long and hard as most members of this board). my personal experiences with tai chi leads me to believe that Qi is as real as the air we breath, perhaps being so closely interlinked with our mundane existence, that it is rendered indiscernible. Doing Tai Chi forms, the Qi flows and circulates most definitively through out the meridians. Over a period of time, condensation naturally occurs. I have experienced (rare occasions, but definitely not delusion) physical sensations of being pushed without being touched physically while doing two person practice with my teacher as well as some other senior students of my school. My teacher quotes his teacher saying that Tai Chi ability builds up over a period of time, like building a skyscraper by stacking one sheet of paper over another. It is a slow and laborious process. Some people have it naturally (by virtue of their Karma). Others have to try hard and diligently. I think attempts to extrapolate Qi to modern scientific terms are futile (many have tried and failed miserably). But it is as real and the abilities it produces are also equally real.

When time stops and the world fades away The senses collapse and the ropes begin to fray The heat of knowing gradually growing burns through the bonds that lead me astray As the waves flow through me one after one Even though I'd thought one goes blind staring into the sun All words escape me and shrinks the thinking mind As the life-force rises on its ecstatic run The sun shines brightly and my blind eyes see finally that I am That Eternity I argue and fight and flame and flaunt my might but when I look deep deep inside the chasm there is but emptiness as I deal with it's dying spasm I am dying yet I live because I'm not whom I see finally I am -- That Eternity But it took a long time Took far too long to break free Break free of those bonds that were biting into me Immersed in that stillness the emptiness of bliss Breaking through that miasma of myself but a modicum of peace The dams finally gave out and like a raging stream the light suddenly rushed in drowning my indignant scream When I looked up again where had I gone? I was but nothing yet was every one I was in everything and everything was part of me And so I knew I am that Eternity It wasn't easy as the observed said -- who is it that's asking me to mend my ways? If you are not me and I am not you who are you then and who am I too? What is this Eternity that you bring forth... Do you even have a clue? The rest of this poem can be read here -- Tat Tvam Asi Hope it was worth the read. Best, Dwai

While it is true that the mind does create sensations and these are nasty traps to fall into, the sensation described is that of a channel opening. My teacher calls it the Suspension. While practicing Taiji Ch'uan and Tao Gong, we were encouraged to focus on suspending from our crown point (this would lead to better relaxation and reduce the stress that a long session can cause on the knees and ankles). For a long time, I did not feel anything in the crown point (a few years), until one day suddenly the sensation arrived (the mental image that it evoked is that of a little tornado-like spiral of energy rising out of my crown-point). This sensation gets stronger at certain times and I know it's time for me to start my practice. Alternately, on the days I begin practice without feeling my crownpoint, I stand and meditate till it starts tingling and then the Tai Chi that follows is very strong, generating a lot of sensation. My limited experience has shown me that these sensations (as they are written about) are maps/landmarks we should all bookmark during our practice. More so, they are also signs that indicate to our teacher of a particular level being achieved. Cheers

Read this article -- The Battle between Science and Yoga This is something I'd written to categorize the arguments Materialists have against seemingly psychic/extra-natural phenomena. Physics isn't advanced enough to fathom everything and explain everything. Cheers!

Read something about Condensation breathing and packing Chi into the bone marrow. It is said to make the bones stronger and result in fat burning. Related perhaps?

What do we read? The Philosophy book or the idea? People die but if their ideas have truth, they stay alive. That living force that is "already here now" is also in the philosophy in a book by a dead person (otherwise it's just a bunch of malarky). How do we know if a philosophy has "Living Force"? Intuitively perhaps...

If you do practice Hatha Yoga and Tai Chi/Chi Kung, you'll see the similarities in the energy flow. Personally yoga has been helpful in opening up some channels (or so I feel) and developing the suspension that my teacher emphasizes in Tai Chi practice. It might seem a tad unnatural, but it feels really great once you get going. The key to doing Hatha Yoga is moderation (tai chi classic? Not too much, not too little).

Interesting -- in The Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna refers to liberation in the state when the ingoing breath merges into the outgoing breath and there is no distinction between the two. The Kriya Yoga tradition of Lahiri Mahasaya (Yogananda's style) is also based on this.