dwai

I think the problem lies with taking a symbolic thing literally. I keep coming back to this question over and over, and no one who espouses this model of daoist immortality can answer convincingly — “when you recognize your true nature as consciousness alone, where is the need for an ‘immortal’ body?” Now one might say, you have to “experience” it to understand it. And though it might be the case, my rejoinder would be, “you have to realize your true nature to understand why the idea of this kind of immortality seems a bit childish”. In any case, I consider that kind of immortality (where you retain your body-mind-personality identification) to be a golden cage. And, when a limited being “levels” up, without full realization (but levels up due to good karma results, etc), they will climb the progressive path (become deities or habitate other (higher) planes, eventually to get to that same liberation that eliminates a need for the earthly or heavenly immortality. A drop of water, doesn’t lose itself after it goes into the ocean, it becomes the ocean itself.

It’s the desire to come and go as one pleases (sometimes embodied, sometimes disembodied), an identification with a name and form that is the ego.

Or is it the perfect ego trip?

You are turning into an X-man — (electro)magneto?

Early Buddhism was heavily missionary-oriented style. So of course there will be “my way is the better way” propaganda in them

There is more than one way to do things That won't happen if there is proper/right teachings and Self-inquiry that go along with it. It has and continues to lead many Hindu and Buddhist practitioners to enlightenment. There are other introductory practices, such as generating a qi ball (we call it Taiji ball in our system) -- it involves some imagination, but usually, that is introduced once the student has started to feel the movement of qi (which should happen fairly quickly if practiced right). In fact, I've shown complete beginners how to do it after a few lessons.

These are very relevant points. Though there isn't a "one size fits all" thing in spiritual practices. Yes, there are some basic/foundational practices one should do -- be that via mantra, yantra, physical movement, breathwork, and so on. The whole premise of the traditional systems around discipleship was that the student is allowed to develop their mental strength/quality before embarking on any other thing. Things like spending time around the teacher's school doing "free labor" were intended to develop a spirit and sense of service, eventually leading to the lessening of selfishness. Doing menial repetitive chores like grinding grains into flour, etc were done with the purpose of developing a sense of forbearance and detachment in the student, eventually leading to entering meditative states/purifying the mind and heart. In Vajrayana Buddhist practices, there are visualization practices done as part of deity yoga or guru yoga, where the practitioner "visualizes" interacting, and even embodies the deity of their practice. In Kundalini-based Yoga traditions, the practitioners may visualize the chakras as lotus flowers, and combine the use of silent seed mantras to activate and perform "kriyas" on these chakras. Tantric traditions will often involve similar visualizations, and the result is a massive movement of energy. In some cases the energy is subtle and in others, it is less subtle. These are not entry-level practices by any means, but the prerequisite is that the practitioner has developed their mental capabilities to a degree where they can maintain focus on the object of said meditations for extended periods of time. So, mental exercises are clearly necessary. In my school (Temple Style Tai chi/Dao Gong) too, we start learning the form by following the teacher's movement, with a regular explanation of what to expect, what phenomena are important to note, which ones can be safely ignored, and so on. One of the main things about being a teacher in such a scenario is that they are able to transmit. If the teacher hasn't developed the ability to transmit energetically, the students will learn only the empty shell, copying only the movements. A good teacher will "fill" the space with their own field, and everyone who is studying with them in that space is effectively tuned via energetic resonance. There is "visualization" involved when the student then goes home and practices the forms by themselves. I often found myself visualizing the teacher in front of me, and me following along his movements, all leading to steady progress and palpable change in energetic flow (volume, refinement, and power).

I do. I think I’d turn the question around and ask, “do you understand what mental exercise, when done repetitively with proper intention and focus does?” Hint: mantra meditation, Yantra meditation techniques as examples. It’s not just “mental exercise” — what is needed along with the mental practice is right teachings (not technique, but guidance). What do you think happens when one commits to and performs mantra meditation? Anyone who can diligently stick with a “lowly mental exercise” for a few months is already well on their way to developing a yogi-like mind. Stick with it for a few years, and you’ll see the effects tangibly. I think many of the newbies here (and to the internal arts in general) would do very well to develop their mental focus and tenacity. What I’ve seen usually is that people are eager to become “experts” before they’ve developed even a 10th of the mental capacity required to even fathom what it is they are trying to learn. I already said, I didn’t mean it to be personal. I just find the idea of it ridiculous, and tbh, the (i think it is inadvertent) gaslighting that happens to anyone who happens to deviate from the “accepted” path (i.e., accepted by an (extremely?) opinionated minority) also a bit amusing.

I find it a bit amusing to hear of something trivialized as “just mental exercises”. Not personal, not intended as such. If someone can focus their mind enough to run through even 15 mins of a sequence of exercises with mindfulness, it’s not wasted time at all, and there are a plethora of psycho-spiritual-somatic benefits that come with it. Same goes for practices that use “visualization” — I think there is a tendency to be condescending towards these among some practitioners, because a misguided sense of bravado emanates from them (“ooh look at me…I’m so tough/smart/spiritual/knowledgeable - I’m doing the ‘real’ thing!”) , as if they’ve got an exclusive license on authenticity or validity of qigong/neigong/yoga/whatever. In my experience, if one is able to visualize with great detail something, it implies a great degree of experiential familiarity.

I will chime in and say that @forestofemptiness is a very reliable witness in my opinion. I have another friend who's been doing Damo's online course and attested to its efficacy, who is also a very reliable witness in my opinion. It is hearsay, but I dare say that I will accept their word as a bond.

The problem is a result of identifixation as a limited person. The sense of “me, mine” is the source of trouble. Either dissolve it so there is no limited personhood anymore, or expand it so it becomes the whole universe. Easier said than done. This “lowest of the low” (like water) can’t be forced. Water doesn’t have a sense of “me” and “mine”. Of course, how can it? It doesn’t have a mind. Yet it will flow wherever there is room. It doesn’t force its way (unless the circumstances makes it so that it moves with great force) — it just does what it’s in its true nature. You put it in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You empty into a lake, it becomes the lake. It doesn’t crave to remain a bottle shaped unit of water. To be like water, is to let of of the limited sense of self. That limited personhood (mind, body, personality) is like the bottle. What you are is the water in that bottle. But unlike the water in a bottle, you (we) have identifixated as the “bottle”. PS. Wrt “self-esteem” — you are the universe/Dao itself, what need is there for Self-esteem? But of course, one might argue, “I don’t feel like the universe, i feel like a limited person…what hubris! Pfft! Me the Universe? No way!” To that the response is, “you can’t pretend to be what you don’t feel. But you don’t feel it, because you don’t know your true nature yet. Find out where this “me” comes from. And you will become the Universe.”

According to one teacher, whatever is necessary for you to be on your path, will come to you, if you stop trying to "make things" happen (hence the wei wu wei) -- that doesn't mean we quit our job and wait for stuff to happen -- keep doing whatever we are able to, with the totality of our being. Though I must say I had done exactly that...quit my job without safety nets a few times in my life, but somehow, things always worked out -- especially after I stopped trying to force an outcome. How I interpreted it is, we must learn to discern between "what we need" vs "what we want". And when we understand clearly what is needed, we must develop the wisdom to let go of what we "want" (unless it is also necessary). How much is enough? I feel it is as much as is needed to rise above the grind for survival. One of the statements in the Daodejing, our grandmaster is quite fond of repeating -- "The five tastes dull the tongue, the colors dull the eyes, the five sounds dull the ear". What it implies is that we must not over-indulge in sensory gratification. The desire for five tastes, colors, sounds is a product of the mind, which clings to pleasure (sense gratification). The "wants" arise from this attachment of the mind. That's why one might find a billionaire who's not satisfied with just one billion and keeps trying to amass more and more. Can you imagine the plight of such a poor person? Such people are poorer than the poorest beggar on the streets because that kind of poverty is more a chronic state of "want" than "lack". If you give a beggar enough money, shelter, and food, they will opt not to be a beggar anymore. Abundance is not in acquiring a lot of wealth or material possessions (though that might happen as a result of our karmic accounting), but rather in the sense of contentment, one feels in their life. To appreciate what we have, and not be wistful about what we don't have, once our needs are met. That is detachment -- to be able to navigate the various temptations that the world throws at us with that discernment between needs and wants is key for any genuine spiritual path. On the other hand, every trial/tribulation we go through can also be a way to "teach" us that very discernment (needs vs wants), teach us contentment, teach us equanimity -- because otherwise, the suffering will be immense. My teacher was a gigging musician in his youth (which probably didn't pay much), and then he took up a nondescript job as a security guard in an inner city high school - quietly working on his spiritual practice, teaching students, and so on. He's not rich, but he has everything he needs -- I'm yet to meet someone with a more balanced, non-attached nature than him. Everything he does is for the benefit of others. I've never seen him get angry, say anything mean about anyone, or be disrespectful towards anyone -- he radiates love and joy.

moderator note: Please be respectful. Every member is free to share exactly as much as they feel comfortable sharing. If someone doesn’t want to disclose their personal experiences beyond a certain point it is their prerogative. If it is a meaningful discourse that you’re seeking, you need to change your tone, stop calling someone’s posts “bullshit” because you don’t agree with them.

I don’t agree with everything he says, but he’s a good guy. And obviously he’s helping a lot of people…was good to hear his motivations and views on teaching.

The Good As-it-is Now!

I’m a big fan of The Martial Man and this teacher, who is so open and articulate in teaching neigong/IMA.

Meditation IS dhyana. The preparatory stages may/may not involve physical transformation. What is required for dhyana is stillness/stability of the body. If you read Patanjali’s yoga sutras, he defines asana as a stable physical posture. I am not a Buddhist so can’t answer about shamata and vipassana. Similar techniques are also part of (and the Buddhist versions most likely derive from) Hindu traditions, albeit not named as such, and are not given as much importance (as in Buddhism). Of course, that doesn’t mean that physical transformation doesn’t have value — in order to meditate properly the internal energies need to be transformed from kinetic (Rajas) and slothful (Tamas) into clarity (satva). Some physical manipulation is required in order to bring that about. But what kind? Any mindfully performed repetitive action will result in meditation. So we have stories about monks who spent time quietly grinding grains in monasteries being able to attain great stillness and clarity. How someone’s constitution is, their age, etc plays a big role in what needs to happen in order to prepare for meditation.

It is also a path one could follow to transform the mind. In fact, I’d say that tantra primarily works on transforming the mind (make it transparent). Body work is merely a stepping stone towards the mind/consciousness work.

Samadhi is not a state or an achievement -- it is one's true nature. So in a sense what you state is correct -- it is the most normal, most common condition, that acts as the foundation for the infinite permutations and combinations one gets to experience. In fact, there is always continuous samadhi, only it is interrupted by thoughts, emotions, and feelings. But that samadhi cannot be of any "use" to the layperson, because the layperson or even an intermediate practitioner of a relevant spiritual tradition is not aware of its existence. So long as there is the identification that, "I am the body, I am the mind, and I am the personality", it is absolutely of no use. Samadhi/True Nature is always hidden in plain sight. Until the realization occurs about what samadhi actually is, it is to be sought out as a precious treasure. And even after one is able to enter samadhi via breath/mind/energetic control, its true nature may be hidden from the seeker. Two things are needed for "realization" -- Right teaching Maturity of practice The most important is the right teaching, without which no amount of practice (even if one does so 24x7 for years at a time) is likely to bear fruit. This wonderful post by @silent thunder comes to bear on the OP --

Continuation on the discussion on Katha Upanishad --

Thanks for this. I completely forgot to wish Vajra Fist for this and my apologies. May your new home bring great joy, prosperity, good health, and peace to the lives of you and your family.

If you go to a nearby Hindu temple, you can buy a right-handed Conch shell, and sound it three times before moving in to purify the space and put a protective shield around the house. You can make it a daily ritual and sound it every dusk.

A wonderful lesson by Swami Sarvapriyananda which touches upon the subject I had presented in the comment about the different ways of the Vedic tradition -

My teacher recently had to undergo a knee replacement surgery (the result of martial arts injuries from the 1980s) -- they ended up having to do metal implants to hold the knee in place. He told me that he doesn't feel any difference. He recovered to a fully functional stage from that surgery in under 3 months, was walking without any support in under 6 weeks from the day of surgery. He is 73 years old. He was teaching taiji, throwing us around like rag dolls in the fourth month after his surgery. He still has some inflammation from the surgery in the tissues and muscles supporting the area, but according to the doctors the inflammation (swelling) takes time to go away.

It goes both ways. Imagine you are a hamster who's been put into a spinning cage and someone hangs a piece of carrot in front of you. You will move due to the momentum of the cage, but also in order to stay upright, you will keep running too. Add to that the lure of that juicy piece of carrot, and you'll keep running. That's how the karmic mechanism works -- we are impelled to act due to the existing momentum that has already been set in motion, and then, in order to survive, we have to act. Add to that mix some proverbial "carrot" that we are shown, and boy o boy, do we run! But, there is a way to break out of this "prison". See the answer in the next section... Find out who you truly are. Are you a body/mind/personality who's running in the cosmic hamster wheel? Or are you something else altogether, who has mistakenly identified themselves as a body/mind/personality? That begs the question -- what is a thought? Is it not an object in the mind? If you didn't have any objects of perception, would you have feelings? Thoughts evoke emotions and feelings. Some thoughts make you happy, some make you angry, others make you sad and so on. We need to have enough clarity of the mind to discern which comes first. Without understanding the events of causality within our own minds, we can't easily tell if feelings come first or thoughts come first. And, then, arises the question where do feelings come from?