dwai

Yes. What westerners call “karma” is actually more appropriately “karma phala” (or fruits of karma or action). Causality means “cause and effect”. Karma is the cause, it’s fruit is the effect. Yes thoughts may or may not arise without “your” control. It depends on what you consider “me”. If you can see that thoughts arise without your volition, where do they arise from? Where do they disappear? Why do certain thoughts repeatedly arise? What causes them to drive one to act on them? Have you ever observed the sequence of thoughts, set into motion by a single thought, like how a single domino can set off a chain of dominos to fall? Or a single explosion in a thermo-nuclear reactor sets off a chain reaction? This happens all the time. Thoughts leading to more thoughts, until one is compelled to act. A smell, a sound (maybe a tinkling of a bell) triggers the memory of ice cream trucks that sold the most delicious ice creams you ate as a child —> memory of playing in the street where the ice cream truck used to come —> your neighborhood bully who used to torment you stealing your ice cream money —> your anger at being bullied —> the guilt and shame it resulted in —> why you are unable to relate to people of a certain kind because you associate them with the childhood bully

Karma means action, and the system of karma implies causality. Do good, reap the good results of your action. Do bad, likewise the results. Action can be both material as well as mental. Every thought is also an action. The “good” and “bad” are a matter of scale. A little sugar is sweet, too much is potentially poisonous. Even if the taste of sweetness remains. Eat nothing but sugar every day and you’ll be sick of it in a day or two. It’s not a good idea to overthink it. There is no Hindu karma, Buddhist karma or Jain karma. There is action, and there is the consequence of the action. What rules apply at the individual level, operates similarly at the collective level too, only scale is different. What can an individual do about the collective karma and the consequences thereof? Nothing at the collective level. They can however work on it at an individual level — fix yourself first before trying to fix the world. As far as spiritual teacher-disciple goes — the teacher takes on some of the student’s “karmic debt” along with their own. Why? Equation is balanced that way. Teacher provides knowledge which will alter the student’s karma. The teacher initially will become the student’s safety net, so to speak. So the energetic price paid for teaching is very big. It takes immense spiritual power to be a spiritual teacher — especially if you have more than a handful of students. That’s why most advanced teachers only have a few advanced students. Those students have more less advanced students, and so on the chain of causality goes - becoming a lineage and collective karma of the lineage. Student’s ability to be follow the teacher’s guidance, diligently practice and intelligently live by those teachings will impact the karma of the lineage too. Not doing so after being initiated into a lineage is a grave danger to themselves and to the lineage itself.

These are later categorizations. Patanjali’s Yoga sutras which outline Ashtanga path, don’t reference any of these with any degree of importance. Nirvikalpa samadhi is just the entry gate for true awakening. Ramana Maharishi called it “mano laya” (submersion of the mind). Meaning, when the mind arises again after nirvikalpa samadhi, it still retains its old patterns and habits. The goal of Self-realization is sahaja samadhi, or a fully functional state of complete identification as the awareness (and not the mind/body). The Kriya in Kriya yoga methods is in maintaining a state of witnessing at the crown or higher, while observing the energetic activities that might continue to occur in the body. I’ve heard of it (state of witnessing at the crown or higher) being referred to as “kutashta chaitanya” or “parāvastha” (ask pilgrim if you happen to chat with him).

The way I look at it is, different Hindu traditions operate at different levels. Some have something for everyone, while others have something for only some. There are 4 major systems of “classical” hindu traditions - what is called “yoga” is but one. The oldest is Purva mimamsa, which makes up the oldest sections of the Vedic system. They are also about bringing harmony between the individual and nature via rituals (yajnas and mantras). Those who practiced it lived by a very clearly defined set of guidelines. This is what many would call “shamanism” in the modern world — bringing rains in a drought-stricken area, helping the departed cross over to higher lokas, and so on. Yoga is part of that technology, but as society devolved and personal power diluted, it became what is called “ashtanga yoga” — a practical way to live and experience samkhya (an ancient panpsychist system), where matter (Prakriti) and consciousness (purusha) co-exist through eternity. Yoga is the way for an individual to realize they are consciousness alone, though it appears to have forms. And the third is “Uttara mimamsa” or “vedanta”, at the pinnacle of which the understanding arises that all “matter and consciousness” are in the domain of consciousness alone. Nondual Shaivism is the bridge between the samkhya and vedantic systems. The best place to investigate the different kinds of practices meant for different kinds of individuals. The path of anupaya upaya or spontaneous awakening - there is no method, only direct awakening. Takes many lifetimes of preparation for this. The path of sambhavopaya — the wisdom path. Requires much work spanning lifetimes to become eligible for this path too. Non-dual Vedanta belongs to this category. Awakening through the mind (also called the direct path), but uses a method of inquiry to bring about said awakening. The path of shaktopaya — or the energy way. This involves gathering, purifying and transmuting kinetic energy (rajas) into sufficient satva, so the mind can see its true nature. Most Kriya yoga systems belong to this. The path of anvopaya — or the atomic way. This involves significant cleaning, purification, tonification, devotion. One can think of it as the lowest rung of the ladder, and meant for most individuals, especially in the modern times, where the sense of self is limited to body, even more than the mind. This is the domain of hatha yoga — working with the body, and then eventually graduating to the mind. And eventually, after much effort, the mind can perceive its true nature as awareness itself. The working with the body is a process of transmuting tamas (energetic inertia) into rajas (kinetic energy), and then transmuting rajas into satva (purified energy, leading to clarity of mind). See above. The system you are outlining is only one of the Daoist systems and belongs to the lowest level - the atomic level. There are of course Daoist systems that work at both the level of energy and of wisdom. There is much overlap between Daoism and Hinduism — but it depends on who one asks P.S. This "be able to take in more light" is a misunderstanding IMHO. There is no "light" outside of consciousness because consciousness is not an emergent property of the body. The same consciousness that illuminates one's mind also illuminates all minds. It also manifests as the 10,000 things as names, forms, utility (that is the external/apparent view) - in the Hindu view, this is known as "Nama-Rupa-Vyavahara". The 10,000 things also have "Is-ness, luminescence, and Bliss" as their internal/hidden nature, because they are made up of the same light of consciousness (this is the internal/true view) - in the Hindu view, this is called "asti-Bhati-priyam". That is what "Light" means. The mind will interpret this, when under the influence of varying degrees of ignorance as external light, internal light, and so on.

It certainly doesn’t come across as such. Consider this a light hearted warning and advice to refrain from such passive aggressive (what you called puerile) humor. So you had to talk about inserting copper wires into the rectum? Out of “admiration”? I don’t see the correlation, and am not interested in discussing this kind of nonsense on this thread.

I don’t see the need for such vitriol. Do you really think it is necessary? if you don’t have anything constructive to contribute, best not to try and troll for a few laughs from the usual suspects. Think hard before responding.

I think it’s like learning to ride a bicycle — you might go for years without riding a bike, but once you get on it, you can ride just like before. Maybe a bit wobbly initially, but it comes back.

Jing is energy in a continuum of consciousness (shen) in movement (Qi) before taking material form (matter). Jing is conserved by not letting the mind scatter - one of the things that happens to do so is wanton sexual mental habits. Compulsive patterns of mind such as overthinking, worrying, anger/shame/guilt are also factors that scatter the mind and therefore expend jing. So not physical activity but compulsive mental activities affect jing/quality of jing.

The basic course is all you need.

I hope my post didn't come across as suggesting that SKY or TM are the same as Babaji's Kriya Yoga -- I merely gave them as examples of some Kriya Yoga systems. I've been chatting with Pilgrim a lot these days -- he is a treasure-trove of Kriya Yoga (Babaji) tradition knowledge -- he has been initiated in several different sub-lineages in that tradition is a very advanced Yogi and spiritual practitioner. I don't really have questions -- was merely positing some ideas/concepts based on my own experiences. The proof of the pudding as they say is in eating. So it's always a good idea to try something out ourselves.

Was on a walk today and noticed the leaves turning yellow as fall sets in. I closely inspected a leaf and noticed that the green in the leaf was gradually shrinking in a fractal pattern much the same as a plant grows in fractal patterns (branching fractal). Energy expands/moves in a spiral pattern (also a fractal pattern). It dawned on me that the “dying” of the leaves, which is a recession of energy/life itself, follows a reverse pattern of “coming alive”. This triggered a memory of conversations that have happened here about simplicity and complexity. Some (most) people view life, energy, nature and awareness as complex. I (and most nondualists) consider awareness to be the most simple, most rudimentary “building block” (some call it existence itself). When this expands, and since awareness in motion is energy or life force, it does so in spiral patterns. When this expands at a large enough scale, it takes on the appearance of complexity (much like the plant, or even a leaf). Is it plausible that what is considered life, is merely an expanding fractal of awareness/energy? Similarly, is what is considered death, merely a reversal of said expansion? Kind of like inhalation and exhalation go together. You can’t have one without the other — yang and yin, or yin and yang or simultaneously yin-yang, depending on what perspective one considers the process from. The outgoing breath can be considered as death, or it could be considered as making room for incoming breath, hence life. Or could it be considered both life and death at once — life-death, like yin-yang?

Looks like you used condensing breathing to convert jing to Qi and then Qi to Shen? IIRC you were following Waysun Liao’s/Temple Style Taiji method of CB at one point. How much did that help? What you’re describing is more or less how “Temple style Daogong” works (the breath work specifically, including CB and Spine breathing/condensing)…

@silent thunder seems to me that, only once the "fear" of death has evaporated, is when we can truly begin to enjoy life. Otherwise, it is a struggle for survival and our obsession with the fight to "stay alive". This manifests in the form of basic survival instincts, but also in the form of developing and working on "immortality projects" -- sometimes literal, but usually in the form of an unquenchable thirst for wealth, happiness, love, legacy, and so on. Thanks for sharing my friend. Best, Dwai

https://www.amazon.com/Apprenticed-Himalayan-Master-Yogis-Autobiography/dp/8191009609 https://www.amazon.com/Living-Himalayan-Masters-Swami-Rama/dp/0893891568/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Swami+Rama&qid=1631570271&s=books&sr=1-2 https://www.amazon.com/Sadhguru-Mystic-Vision-Beyond-Paperback/dp/B00RWSRTXO/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=Sadhguru&qid=1631570300&s=books&sr=1-7

I was trying to find an amazing video that goes from microscopic to macroscopic scale which illustrates how simple patterns transform into complex systems. I’ll post when I find it. For now, here’s an interesting one —

moderator note - Old3Bob has made disrespectful comments against another member on this thread and therefore is restricted from posting on the forum for a set period of time.

Some mantras, I found make it so, that there is progressively greater pauses of stillness as we repeat them. Some others are not quite so, and require active focus. In the Hindu/Vedic mantras, those with lower number of syllables tend to be in the former category. Those with more syllables seem to be in the latter category. unrelated to TM, but a general rule of practice in the Hindu tradition is what is called a “purascharana”. One purascharana is 100,000 x number of syllables in the mantra. Depending on one’s karma, the benefits of a mantra can be attained by performing one or more such cycles. For some it can happen with a lower count, if they’ve done part of the work in a previous lifetime.

And (as most probably already know this) — there is a sensation of “falling in”, like if you suddenly lost the ground you stand on, only the mind goes deeper into stillness (like from the turbulent ocean surface going deeper and deeper). We have to be watchful or else the “surprise” of this “falling in” sensation can jerk us out of meditation. But with time this becomes a welcome process.

Thats' the way to start the inner work. Sinking the qi is step 1 IMHO, this Nei Dan/Neigong distinction is a false dichotomy and a recent development. The main teacher of my system never distinguishes between Neigong and Neidan, and yet, most of what he teaches as Daogong would be considered Neidan practices.

What is so hard to understand. There are both the ingredients and the "cooked" stuff. All refinement is based on the level of clarity/purity in our minds, and the ability of the mind to consolidate (as opposed to scattered by thoughts/emotions/feelings). Once the mind is consolidated, "qi" consolidates. Once qi consolidates, it can be directed to be stored in the dantien. Where is the need to over-complicate and make it sound like it is harder than it is (being able to consolidate the mind is a lifelong endeavor for most of us)? Stand, release and let the qi sink to the dantien. As the mind consolidates, the qi will consolidate and condense in the stomach area to the size of a golf ball. There's more to it, but mostly it will result in great outcries of disbelief and outrage if I share that info here openly In any case, it's best to not confuse the heck out of Dev -- he should pick a path and stick with it until he experiences the fruits of that path.

Agreed. I don't particularly subscribe to that view that the dan needs to be created. I've been told by my teachers, and my own experience also tells me that this is already present. How it's been explained to me is as follows "Think of the Dantien as an oven where you have a small fire going. The teacher will turn that into a big(ger) fire, which then you have to tend to and maintain/grow as you continue to practice". One can even grow this "fire" on their own, but it will take longer than if the teacher provided an accelerant. There are many strong opinions here that articulate that point of view.

better to learn to release and sink the Qi first. The stretching will come on its own when the Qi starts to radiate out from the dantien (imho). Beginners don’t really know how to be subtle with their bodies (unless they’re really gifted or physically very weak). Good, but there are many proponents of “the dantien needs to be created” too

There’s a lot of mythology around “stretching” and the “drumskin” concept. If you’re referring to the taiji classic - it has less to do with the physical body and more to do with Qi itself, and the surface tension of the energy field (like the surface tension of an inflated ball). Is that what you were referring to? Yes stretching is important, but it is not a physical/muscular stretching as I know it. It happens as a result of qi. Beginners can’t really achieve that kind of stretch — so it’s better to learn to release and learn to sink the Qi to the dantien (and no, dantien doesn’t need to be created - only identified via proper posture and relaxed focus of the mind).

One last piece of friendly advise, and then I’ll leave you in the good hands of the residents experts here… The reason why it’s suggested to lean forward slightly with the upper torso is because we tend to think we’re standing perfectly straight but end up leaning backward — this is especially true if you can’t suspend the crown and the martial crown is not raised up (which why we tuck the chin in slightly). The slight leaning forward also activates the Kua. These things take a bit of playing around with to find the correct combination — which will vary from person to person. Main thing is to relax the mind — if you’re constantly fretting over how your posture is, your qi will not sink. Just stand and let your mind rest in the lower abdomen area. If your posture is incorrect, your mind will move to where there is discomfort. The mind is blocked when it’s occupied. When it is unoccupied (with thoughts), it is unblocked. Without unblocking your mind, you can’t make progress in the internal arts.

@Dev if you’re interested in what I have to say, feel free to PM me. Obviously it’s not a good idea to have too many cooks/recipes.