dwai

😁

Ok will have to dig deeper into this. Is the yogic vs mind related to manifest vs un-manifest, you wei vs Wu wei?

Yinfu as in from the yellow emperor’s classic? Fascinating — please share more if you can. I don’t know anything about it — so would appreciate some insights.

Care to elaborate? I’ve not come across “yin reduction” or “vacuum” before. What do you think they mean?

I think you didn’t understand what I wrote about — it was nirvikalpa samadhi, not “Nibbana samadhi”. I didn’t mention nibbana or nirvana in that post. In any case, I don’t understand what you mean by vacuum and yin reduction. Are these technical terms within Daoism or Buddhism? Or your own words to describe something you practice/experience?

How is that a description of Nirvana ?

I’m just assuming that answer here Likely that if have nondual realzation, your halo will become visible to all and sundry or a white light will emanate from you during meditation — or some other material, dualistic evidence to that effect, or better still — you should know all the knowledge in all the world (he already challenged me to tell His dad’s name in another post) I’ve read something similar in one of Damo Mitchell’s books. So far I’ve found most of what freeform says seems to match what’s in Damo’s books. I disagree with both of them on many things P.S. also makes me wonder if we have a celeb in our midst 🤔

I don’t understand what you wrote here, sorry. I’m assuming you’re reading a Chinese translation of my words - I don’t know what this translates into, what kind of misunderstanding it gives rise to. I never said “nirvana is nothing”.

Not everyone can pull an Apech 😜

just like the ocean, stream, river and lake are all water, similarly the mind of a normal person and the mind of a siddha are both illuminated by consciousness. One doesn’t need to become a yoga siddha/Superman/woman/person to realize their Self/True Nature. @Piyadasi it is a very fundamental mistake (imho) to mistake the symptom for the cause. Siddhis are not the cause of realization, but a side-effect of the path one chooses toward realization. If you go down an energy/yogic path, you will get siddhis. Patanjali’s yoga sutras has one chapter (Vibhuti Pada) dedicated to siddhis, which he then warns as being potential hurdles to liberation. The most important thing in a Self-realized person is their presence. No siddhis are required, nor will siddhis help. I’m not very well versed in Buddhist lore beyond a few sutras I’ve studied or what I learned as a kid growing up in India - but the Buddha himself and most of his top students were yoga/meditation adepts prior to becoming “enlightened”. In Indian dharma traditions there are countless stories of sages with siddhis, who sooner or later realize that, all their siddhis won’t give them Self-realization. So they “straighten up” their acts and work on those aspects of their character that was obscuring their realization. Rishi Vishwamitra was a great sage with immense powers, but it didn’t get him brahmajnana (Self-realization) until he forsook his ego. Rishi Durvasa was a sage of many siddhis but didn’t get realization until he was able to let go of his terrible anger. I won’t bore the folks here with a list of names — suffice to say it is long.

In the dharma traditions, these are yogic siddhis and have nothing to do with realization/enlightenment. Though I have accessed some of my previous lives during meditation, I can't say I care to know about them. None of this is the domain of "consciousness" per se. These are all functions of the mind, in the dualistic mode of operation. It has no significance (except for the shock and awe factor). Many of the so-called "Fallen Guru types" you mention had the ability to do this. It is not a good thing for charlatans to cheat others, period -- whether they are neo-advaita or tantric sex gurus or "hang-weight-off-your-junk" alleged daoist alchemy masters. At the same time, it is not wise to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. There is power in satsangs. When we go to spend time with our teachers, for instance, we are in satsang. When we spend time with fellow seekers (even on an internet forum) also we are in satsang. I think it is also true for the Mantak Chia types in the Daoist traditions. The allure of powers and mystical abilities is not a new phenomenon. For every genuine sage, there have been, throughout history, many more charlatans who learn to talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. And if there's anything that people love the most, it's a short-cut.

I did check it out. Interesting, also, unfortunately (or vice-versa), as I was expecting -- nothing new to learn there. I remember @MIchael80 or someone else had posted the 4 stages narrative a long time ago on another thread. I consider this kind of categorization akin to splitting hairs, and unnecessary. At least that is what it feels to me, FWIW. But if the 4 stages narrative works for someone, more power to them. There is absolutely nothing in lorne's blog post that actually differs from the traditional Advaita Vedanta perspective, just some additional sub-categorization. Not everyone goes through the same sequence of "experiences" (if one can even call them that). IIRC @Spotless used to often talk about precisely how no two people go through the exact same set of "stages"...

Thanks Michael. This is precisely what I’ve been calling (along the entire nondual traditions of India) as Self-realization. One doesn’t need to “experience” to recognize/realize this. What you’ve described as “cannot be talked about” is actually due to the fact that in nirvikalpa samadhi, there IS no experience — everything stops, the world literally disappears, time disappears, space disappears, knowing disappears, and even sense of “I am” disappears. But that is really of not much use to the limited being who needs to fully comprehend their true nature. That is why one has to go beyond nirvikalpa samadhi — into the realm of what is called Sahaja samadhi. I’ll certainly check out David’s blog and see if I find anything interesting therein. Good luck to you too on your path. Best, dwai

How does one know what lies beyond awareness without awareness/consciousness? Is it possible to “know” without awareness/consciousness? If yes, then how? Is absence of subject-object duality the same as absence of consciousness or awareness? Certainly not. One experiences the absence of subject-object duality in deep sleep every day.

There is nowhere that consciousness cannot reach. I think you mean the mind — which is a limited reflection of consciousness. It just seems like splitting hairs to me. There really is no “soul” — though many have incorrectly translated “Atman - Self” as “soul”. There is a subtle body that transmigrates if one is stuck in duality. But that is also at a subtle relative/transactional level. It is very possible (and likely) to misunderstand the teacher’s words based on one’s own internal filters (many at a deep subconscious level). Or sometimes teachers’ understanding can be driven by their own filters as well (not saying that’s the case with your teacher — I can’t know without meeting the teacher, fwiw). Then I’d say it is not true awakening indeed most of the “fallen guru types” are typically those playing with energetics and alchemy. Mooji 😁 - I don’t consider him “awakened”. But I know it’s hard to tell the fluff from the stuff these days . Ram Rahim and thousands like him are no where near realization. No idea about the Tibetan ones. P.S. I’d missed the Rajneesh reference. He was certainly a very high level yogi. But in words of my spiritual mentor, he was of a very rajasic level. There is a certain type of yogis who are “janma-siddhas” (have been born with yogic Siddhis due to past life efforts). Such people can do miraculous stuff — see the past and future, material objects from the astral plane, have very strong shaktipat etc. And they might have a large following too — mainly laypersons without ability to discern between a truly jnani and a yoga-siddha. Such people can fall prey to these yoga-siddha types who’ve not had what is called “tadatmyam” (or realization). Also these yogis (I’m extending this to include equivalents from other non-Hindu traditions as well) are themselves susceptible to corrupting influences of lust, anger, greed - especially when they realize how they are able to influence people (and manifest material wealth etc). Yoga siddhis don’t a jnani make — a jnani can be fully realized and liberated and still not show a single yogic Siddhi. Typically when a yoga-siddha doesn’t continue to move their development further, or uses up the power that drives their siddhis, can end up depleted. Siddhis don’t last forever — and therefore either require diligent practice and upkeep, or the yogi needs to develop enough wisdom to let go of the siddhis and work on/towards Self-realization. What may remain in jnani (who has realization) is called lesha avidya (a very small degree of ignorance/attachment) - something that allows them to retain this physical form, in order to help others toward their liberation. But that is determined by their proclivities, or as part of their dharma vows (such as bodhisattva vows among Buddhists).

That’s simply not correct. Karmic tendencies don’t arise from the unconscious. Especially not after realization. What rises are the activated patterns that came with this current “birth” that haven’t fallen away upon the said awakening. Those will get worked on and dissolved. The description given is “like an arrow that has been fired has to expend its momentum before it falls to the ground…such is the physical form/associated patterns of someone who is awakened”. See above. Once awakened, the only difference between one who has done adequate preparatory cleansing and one who hasn’t is, the latter cannot enjoy the true joy of said awakening. Upon dropping the physical body, neither will return. Nope. That is usually reserved for the energy/yogic/alchemy path types who can’t handle the energies they’ve unleashed in their system without fulfilling adequate work on their minds towards realization.

Yes of course it is precious and all. Only until it doesn’t ensnare you in a vicious cycle of clinging and aversions

I guess this is where I would say that what you're referencing is a dualistic paradigm. There's nothing wrong with it -- but it is considered relative truth in the dharma traditions. It is very much part of the Hindu/Buddhist tradition as well, only not considered a realized perspective.

I wouldn't use the term "continuation" -- rather, an appearance within awareness. No "thing" is apart from Awareness -- just like no image is apart from the TV screen. Just like we wouldn't call an image a continuation of a TV screen, similarly, we shouldn't call the body or the world a continuation of awareness. I'm not being pedantic from a semantical perspective here -- continuity implies phenomenon -- which is in the domain of space and time. Awareness is neither in space nor in time. The illusion of space and time appears in awareness. One's choice of words reflects their perspective -- if we care to read/listen/hear properly. I understand that. The point I've been consistently trying to make is, it is a good idea to clarify what it is that one is seeking vis-a-vis spiritual practice. From my point of view, IMHO -- it is quite alright to continue to practice everything one has practiced before the realization, only the attitude towards the practice will be quite transformed. One can approach the practice without the sense of it being a chore, or a means to realization, but rather as something to be enjoyed and explored.

Apechially when it’s that ourobvious

There’s only One snake, eating it’s tail — ouroboros

I’ve never heard any “awake” person say their body has had realizations. But that is really beside the point. The idea was to illustrate a point that the aware subject is not the body. This is at the Vedanta 101 level Do the eyes see? Or does the “subject” see through the eyes? I’ll certainly check it out. Had never heard of him before Interesting. If you are referring to what Nisargadatta Maharaj called “turiyatita”, that really is a misnomer. Turiya as you know is called the “fourth” when it is recognized as another state of awareness (after waking, dreaming and deep sleep). So to go beyond Turiya is to realize that waking, dreaming and deep sleep are appearances in awareness alone (turiya). So turiya is not a fourth anymore — it is the absolute reality.

I think we often times end up deducing from these statements what we WANT to confirm (called confirmation bias, iinm). And I know that’s a sword which can cut both ways, but I’m really not looking for confirmation…just sharing my thoughts The body methods are preparatory - can’t really avoid them in some form . But does it HAVE to be some form of alchemy (such as Neidan)? Certainly not. Paths of alchemy are meant for a certain type of personality. I’m sipping my tea as I read these responses - it is always very interesting to read them. After that I will practice Kriya …ooh! alchemy

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