dwai

this seems to be similar to the anvopaya method of Kashmir Shaivism - go from the body to higher reality, or Ming to Xing (sort of). I recall something similar too wrt mind/body duality - I suspect it to be a consequence of getting stuck in an in-between stage. ML’s writings (especially his book Dimension One) seems to reflect the AV perspective. Yes, emptiness - but as the pontential source of everything - not as a dead void. I read Brine’s 1st book on WLP system - I don’t see major ontological differences, but with a few methodological and some pedagogical differences. Rasmus’ practical methodology seems similar, but pedagogically different in that he uses the hermetic framework. I look at the differences in pedagogy and minor ontological variations as flavors influenced by cultural contexts. The methods need to be different based on the capabilities of the practitioner.

Possible. Or maybe it is possible that it is indeed Taoist tai chi as practiced by the monk who taught ML. I’ve heard the term “Southern Taoist” mentioned a few times in this context.

The details around this are murky, but I suspect that Cheng Man Ching and Master Liao probably shared a teacher (at some point in time). ML always claims that CMC was a friend and that he didn't study under him. From what I've heard, the White Crane part is dubious -- I've asked my teachers about it, and they have said there's no influence of White Crane per their knowledge (my current teacher started studying with ML in 1972). But I've heard other people claim that he was using White Crane. Master HSS was a white crane master before meeting CMC and becoming his student. I see a lot of similarities between what Mark teaches and what I've learned from my teacher (especially some of the advanced topics).

The way you/we learned it initially, is what my teacher says “the initial way” to do condensing, but the thing is, we have to learn to do it that way first, but the method needs to be refined/adjusted by a teacher later. The way I see what he means by “initial way” is like jump-starting a car with a battery pack. Once the jumpstart happens, we don’t need to keep doing it that way. Many people don’t persevere long enough to learn the refined way. Specifically, the initial condensing is the yang way, and refined condensing is the yin way.

Not really - that’s not what I said (or meant). As I’ve said earlier - I’m about as deep as one can be in “science” - I’m an engineer by training, a computer engineer by profession. But, I have to admit where science is limited - primarily because of the materialist paradigm where it operates from. There are entire areas of our lived experience that science has no explanations for, such as even defining what consciousness is. Most of what we encounter with Internal arts such as taiji are in the realm of the consciousness and mind, not necessarily in the realm of biology. There are far more advanced applications of Jin than fajin (float, sink, etc) - if you can’t actuate real Jin, all those things are out of your reach. You could of course say, that it is mistranslated or misunderstood. But that’s basically a cop-out in my humble opinion.

It can be if what Jin means varies from system to system. For example, you claim it is muscular energy enabled by a high density of mitochondria. In the system I practice, it is energy stored within the bone marrow (let's leave it at this for the sake of simplicity - though it is far more and goes into more of what you will likely call "fiction") How you apply it will be different from how I use it, and its effect will be different for the issuer and the recipient. For example, if someone gets a really sudden and violent push or strike from muscular action, the recipient will feel a definitive sense of impact, and the issuer will feel the recipient's weight. When what I call Jin is issued, the recipient will feel only the point of contact, and the result will be visible in their physical displacement (when applying what is called long power). It might feel like a wind lifted them off their feet and physically moved them through a distance (could be several feet). The issuer will not feel the recipient's weight (depending on how advanced they are, they can feel like 4 oz or 5 lbs or 10 lbs, etc).

Yes, you can observe it empirically by practicing it.

Feel free to believe what you want; who am I to stop you? If it gives you the strength to effortlessly carry 80% of your body weight, why not? However, it is not the same as the taiji Jin I know (as taught by my teacher), cultivate, and apply. As I acknowledged earlier, different systems have different definitions of Jin.

As far as I know, only Master Liao seems to discuss/reveal this openly. I've heard other IMA teachers refer to this, but I'm not certain about its source.

Or maybe they don’t care for what (if any) explanation scientists have. Knowing if they follow certain process and with the guidance of a competent teacher they develop Jin, might be sufficient for them. A critical part of the process includes clearly the letting go of physical/muscular strength. So if you are letting go of muscular strength, there is no reason to believe that muscular strength is involved in fajin, and automatically eliminates any need to consider mitochondrial density and ATP and other explanations for the power generated. Let me give you my formula - Qi condensed into bone marrow ==> Jin. Where, Qi != Breath Jin != mitochondrial density in muscle tissues Here’s my proposal to those who want to explore this phenomenon — For anyone to develop real Jin, they must start with the premise that the ancients/elders who wrote about Qi and Neijin were not blithering idiots who made up things in their ignorance. They need to trust the testimony of the preceptors - when certain phenomena are described as being the consequence or certain practices, they should try to follow those practices with sincerity to see if it causes the effect advertised. It would be a very good idea to go a teacher who can show them practically how it works first - getting “bounced” by a teacher who has Jin is a very good idea. All my teacher’s students (myself included) started that way (and most of us have developed Jin and can apply it on demand). Odds are if your teacher doesn’t show you hands on what it is that they’re teaching, they don’t have it. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. If one steps off in the wrong direction, they will be lost soon. Maps have been available in the form of the instructions, and guides (GPS) in the form of teachers. Find a good teacher and let them guide you.

I didn’t, because I don’t claim there to be any “scientific theory” to back it. As far as I’m concerned, current science is incapable of detecting and measuring it beyond its applied effects. There are no scientific theories that I’ve come across that even remotely matches the lived experience of the kind of phenomenon I consider to be real Jin (aka not muscular strength)

If that’s the case, then how can you call your theory anything other than a hypothesis? To make definitive statements about it vis-a-vis science, requires scientific evidence (statistical analysis backed by experimental data). So you decided to fit your experience into a framework you felt best explained it. That’s fine by me, but is not definitive by any scientific standards. But more power to you if it makes you feel convinced! Not interested, as I’m quite sure that muscle contraction has nothing to do with taiji Jin - my experience and those of others I know with phds and post-doctoral degrees in hard science, takes it to something beyond the domain of existing science. All agree that science is incapable of explaining or understanding this phenomenon entirely.

I, too, find some Daoist schools' penchant for terminology overload tedious. A lot of what they try to explain by breaking it down into smaller parts is a side effect of not understanding/accepting the primary purpose of Dao practice—returning (to the source), realizing our True Nature, and letting go - the path of nivritti (return). There was a time when I loved these elaborate explanations of dissecting phenomena, acquiring methods and techniques, and chasing after results (powers). Nowadays, I like the simplicity of the DDJ and the Neiyeh much more - and I can't find differences between what is being expressed therein and what has been expressed through the "pointings" in Advaita Vedanta, Kashmiri Shaivism, or, for that matter, in Vajrayana Buddhism (though this is an area I haven't studied as much as the others I mentioned).

What is different about CD's mitochondrial density from a strength-trainer's? You've not yet shared your experimental methodology. - Did you take muscle biopsies? - Did you do double-blind studies? - Do you have the statistical data that demonstrates your hypothesis? Okay, maybe I'm jumping ahead here - please take your time and elaborate your entire theory. But then please go into great detail to support it with scientific data. Being a data engineer by profession, I am interested. Very interested.

So, in your opinion, abdominal breathing will automatically sink qi to the dantien?

There are research studies out there which claim that resistance strength training in fact increases mitochondrial density and muscular strength. While hypertrophy does outpace mitochondrial density, it doesn’t mean it will diminish overall mitochondrial density, but rather increase it. * Mitochondrial function improves: Research shows resistance training boosts mitochondrial enzymes and respiratory capacity, leading to better energy production and muscle endurance. * Total mitochondrial content may increase: Some studies suggest that long-term resistance training can lead to increased total mitochondrial content in muscles, though more research is needed. Impact on muscle strength: * Improved energy production: Enhanced mitochondrial function means more energy available for muscle contractions, contributing to increased strength. * Delayed fatigue: Better energy production also delays fatigue, allowing for longer and more intense workouts, further promoting strength gains. * Hypertrophy: While density may decrease, the total number of mitochondria likely increases with muscle growth, supporting overall muscle strength. I’m just sharing the above to offer a counterpoint to your hypothesis. Meaning it is not convincing to me (fwiw). Based on my experience, taiji Jin is not really a product of muscular action at all - but something completely different altogether. The muscular structure is passive when jin is expressed - it only serves the purpose of maintaining skeletal structure. One aspect of developing Jin is to condense the qi into the bone marrow - which is what is done in the style of Taiji I practice. There is a role of breath too, but mainly it is the Yi that drives this. But other martial systems (non-taiji) have might other definitions of Jin, and what you’re saying might be applicable to those.

Did you verify experimentally? Very curious to learn about your test methodology

Isn't there a logical fallacy in your theory? By your logic, the weightlifter should have greater mitochondrial density and jin. Even if we consider the slow to moderate speed part, strength training is usually done at slow speeds for the best effect.

I’m 49. Indeed, CD’s physical fitness is impressive.

Like just lifting it one time or you can pick it up and walk around with it for several minutes?

Okay, let's hear your explanation for fajin now. I've shared a lot from my perspective. What happens in taiji that develops tremendous power? Do their muscles become tremendously strong? Is that what you think is jin? Just really strong muscles?

Very interesting. How much percentage of your body weight can you lift?

I see. That's such a silly thing to say

I think you’re missing the point I’m making. If a “waigong” develops their muscular strength for a different effect than a “neigong” person, are they training different muscles or the same muscles? By your explanation, a neigong person should be able to lift heavy weights just like the waigong person if they are developing muscular strength (though by different means).

Of course - we’re friends having a good exchange here So if you don’t understand it or have not experienced it, it is fictional? what I wrote is directly from my own experiences - with my teacher, my kungfu brothers. You seem to be extrapolating what I wrote with your own fictional ideas from your childhood. That is excellent. If your muscle strength has increased you should be able to lift heavy weights etc? Yes of course proper breathing is very important - but at a certain point how one is breathing becomes irrelevant in Taiji fajin. And by breathing I mean specific inhalation and exhalation associated with the expression of Jin. If you need to always exhale while doing fajin, what will you do if someone attacks you right after you have fully exhaled? Will you ask them to wait to let you inhale first, so you can fajin?