dwai

So, a weightlifter who can lift 500 lbs is a neigong expert?

Ok, here is where it gets interesting. Breathing is important of course. But there are a few more steps involved (intermediate level) - Practitioner learns how to open the joints and hang the flesh off the bones - this needs to be coordinated with the breath. as they do this, an internal stretch happens. The fascial web within the body gets unified and fully activated. This stretching is needed to begin to tap into the mechanical part of Jin. The fascial web acts like a trampoline of sorts - once fully integrated, it is able to both receive incoming force and immediately return it back (newton’s 3rd law). This is also not really Jin yet. With this fascial web reunification/activation, another phenomenon should start to occur. Now that (after beginner level) full body relaxation has happened, and the coordination of mindful breath work with the opening and stretching of the joints, an internal charge starts to develop and flow through the fascia. the practitioner by now should have also started doing posture training (holding a posture for several minutes - even 30-45 minutes at a time). The most basic is the wuji posture. As the correct body alignment and release occurs, a flow starts from the (usually from the upper) extremities of the body towards the lower abdomen. This sensation of flow is unlike any other one would have likely encountered until this point. It feels fluid and a filling starts to happen in the lower abdominal cavity. The practitioner maintains their attention in this area until a definitive shape starts to appear - spherical. This goes from the size of a cantaloupe to that of a little golf ball with time. after sometime, this pouring/filling sensation starts to overflow. Like when a bucket is full but the water keeps flowing - this sensation starts to flow back to the extremities (basically starting to flow down specific pathways throughout the fascial web). if the practitioner keeps going at it, the filling sensation will permeate the entire body, and a sense of fullness starts to develop. The tissues in the body can start to become more “puffed up” (like a balloon inflating under the skin). This can feel like an unbroken layer of silk under the skin. All this while, the practitioner is also continuing to do the forms, and now the forms start to come alive. when the practitioner moves through their forms, now there is a different kind of flow and sensation happening. There are things one is supposed to do with the mind and awareness during the forms, that cause certain effects to occur. This is the beginning of Jin. Along with these above steps the practitioner should have also started to work with what we call in our system the “Taiji ball”. This is generated first between the palms. With time, this becomes a palpable and tangible sensation (like one is holding a physical ball). This ball training is coordinated with the breath. All of the Taiji forms involve holding this ball, rolling it, turning it, twisting it, splitting it, and so on. This is what allows for the practitioner’s awareness to expand beyond their own body and outward into the environment. They start to develop a sense of an energetic field that encompasses them - initially 1-3’ all around them and gradually expanding to several feet. This is when we get to the advanced levels. through all these steps, one thing is very clear - muscular strength needs to be eschewed. Why? Because muscular activation and strength block the proper integration of the fascial web, and prevent the practitioner’s mind from fully becoming aware of their internal structures. P.S, as one starts the advanced level work, the breath needs to be let go of. Once the 8 energies and 5 directions are grasped, the coordination of the breath actually gets in the way. The breath was only a tool to get the energy - aka qi (that flowing sensation felt in the intermediate level) to integrate with the mind (yi). Once the two are properly connected, the breath coordination can be dropped.

So in other words, muscular strength is internal and it comes from neigong?

ok - Jin *can be* be generated from the practice of Taiji. Agreed. Sure, but while we're at it, let us also clear up what you mean by "internal strength of the muscles." Do you mean to say that muscles have both external and internal strength and that the two are somehow different from each other? For beginners, Taiji is done slowly because - Slow movements help us better organize the body's structure, which in turn helps us minimize the amount of muscular effort utilized by the body. By minimizing the muscular effort required to do the movements, we become aware of where we hold body tension that is detrimental to smooth proprioception. Over time, as we focus on releasing the tensions (such as unnecessary muscular tension), these start to release (so there is a general relaxation of the body) As the body relaxes, our awareness of the whole body becomes better As our awareness of the entire body improves, the movements become more integrated. At this stage, we can coordinate the movements outlined in the taiji forms as one unit. When we can move the entire body mass as one unit and apply it (when one part moves, all parts move), we can use the body's momentum (P = mv). This is a beginner-level skill and is not Jin.

Okay, discrepancy it is.

Okay, that sounds good. Can you explain the mechanics of Fajin from your perspective? I can respond with my experience/understanding of it in response to yours. We can see where there might be disagreements (either in the phenomenology or the terminology) and where there is common ground. P.S. What would be valuable to me is if you could express it in your own words without quoting text.

Can we talk about how Jin is applied without weapons first? Maybe you can show a demo of how you apply jin?

Maybe it also goes to show the viewer's perspective. You saw a young guy 'manhandling' a senior lady. I saw a taijiquan teacher demonstrate some intriguing (and advanced) concepts practically. It doesn't matter to me if it is a plump old lady or a ripped young dude. If you check out his videos, he rotates through students. Why did he select that particular subject to show this? IDK, maybe he just doesn't care what some "expert" on the internet thinks about it

What I was asking is whether your intention/yi projects through and out of the blade. I’ve done the staff and sword (Jian) forms. With the jian it is most easily evident - the blade should vibrate when we do this projection. With the staff it is a bit harder, but it helps to project longer distance. In the system I practice, the field is very important. To expand the field it requires practicing to extend the Yi beyond the “weapon.” Of course, each weapon is also training one of the five elements. Staff trains wood, sword trains water, spear trains fire, Sabre trains metal, and empty hand trains earth.

I did it to some skeptics and their response was “wow! You’ve managed to figure out how to use static electricity between your palms” 😆

Do you move your awareness out through the blade when you do your saber form?

Let us not get personal @Shadow_self - it is okay for people to have differing opinions.

I don't disagree with you on this. When I went to my teacher for the first time, I was unsure what to expect when he asked me, "do you want to be bounced?" He stood with his heels hanging over a flight of stairs leading down into his basement. Using his two index fingers, he launched me airborne and back several feet into his front door. All my brain registered was a light touch on my chest and then the thud as I hit the door—there was no sense of time having elapsed. He was probably 64 then, and I was 40, outweighing him by 80 lbs.

I don’t know Terry Dunn either. Anyway, is was not my intention to question Mary Chu’s credentials - like I said, I’m sure she is amazing. Agreed.

Yes, Mark Rasmus is legit. I find this teacher is showing some good skills (advanced, yang style) -

sometimes it can be representative of the skill of the individual too. There are plenty of taijiquan people who do the physical/muscular fajin. But that’s not demonstrative of the real Jin, imho/ime. It is true that most start from physical (and I say most because there might be exceptionally skilled people who understand the subtleties of release quickly). If it is a genuine internal taiji system they will progress to the subtle internal power. Of course there are so many who’ve been practicing for decades with no idea how to do this (and many have given up too). These people become vehement and belligerent skeptics (the FB group called “Fajin project” has many such worthies). And once one gets through the gate of real internal power, the spiritual aspects of Taijiquan become available).

Peace ☮️

Nice. Never heard of her, but I’m sure she is amazing. Er, that’s what I was saying - it is Jin, not muscular strength. Yes, and Jin has nothing to do with muscular strength or conditioning etc.

Maybe it is a terminology thing. Did you learn Taijiquan from a teacher? The way I have been taught (and can validate from my own experience) is that muscular strength (li) blocks the flow of qi and generation of jin. In fact we use hardly any muscular strength to apply taiji power (if we’re bouncing someone, it feels like they weigh 1 lb instead of 150 lbs, for example). Anyway this is a discussion done ad nauseum here on TDB.

I already told you what it is per to my understanding. Realization of our True Nature.

Of course! Try living without breathing

this guy is doing a more intense workout without any Qigong/neigong involved - While I’m not disputing that Sabre forms are not taxing, it is not demonstrative of Neidan/neigong either. Sure, breath work is involved, conditioning is involved, but it’s not Neidan. If you are conditioning muscles in Taijiquan then you are doing it wrong I’m afraid. But there’s nothing wrong with conditioning the muscles - I lift weights, do cardio, etc. But Taijiquan is the opposite of that - it is about releasing, letting go of muscular strength and developing internal power. One can do both, but not at the same time. Ok, so Neidan = qigong = neigong = breathing?

That sounds like a self-defeating mental game to me. How much Neidan does one need to know to learn and perform a Sabre-form? I contend that it is zero. Would you like to help us understand how it reveals what and how much they know about Neidan?

The music is very good. Good movement, also I appreciate the proprioception and balance.

FWIW, in my humble opinion, it is perfectly okay for people to share their views and ideas on a public forum such as TDB and have vigorous discussions/debates on things. But we must be realistic—it is improbable that Perspective A can persuade Perspective B to change. One thing we must keep in mind is to recognize when we agree to disagree and maintain civility in our interactions. So, no ad hominem, name-calling, insulting each other. We are all human and succumb to the heat of the moment - as long as we recognize and self-regulate - for example, if we insult someone publicly, apologize to them right there (or when called out by other members/moderators), we can grow collectively. It might interest members to take a look at this -