dwai

I don’t agree that the end state for a jñāni is blankness of deep sleep There is deep stillness for sure. Many people misunderstand bliss too, imho. It is not a “blissed our/ecstatic” state. It is more correct to say “completeness” — nothing is missing, nothing can add to it, nor take away from it. Contentment, no striving for or away from anything. Ramana Maharishi used to say (and I paraphrase) “let what comes come, let what goes go”. Same here

I'm reminded of Daodejing Chapter 38, where Lao Tzu says after reading some posts on this thread. https://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu38.html Here "De" is being translated as "Goodness". I think that until one has the ability to truly discern between real and unreal, one has to rely on rules. And Ethics/Morals etc are rules that have been created to provide us with guidelines on "good conduct" until a point when we have uncovered our true nature. At which point, the "Tao has been found" and there will be no need for virtues (in a contrived manner). All action will be naturally 'virtuous'...

I have theorized that as practitioners there are two mindsets/levels of qualification. The first one is the neophyte mindset, where we need a 'framework' to give our practice a structure, and the framework must provide 'methods' that are like rungs of a ladder, wherein, we can climb up towards the 'goal' (whatever that might be). The second one comes after a period of maturation, where our minds have been purified with the methods of the first category, and we are now able to directly recognize the truth, and 'viveka' ( the ability to discern between real and unreal) has awakened in the mind. This mindset does not need a framework or methods, and we are able to see beyond the methods. The goal too will have changed in such a situation. Ramana didn't ask people to fixate on the "I am" sensation at all (at least based on what I understand). He did ask to seek the source of the "I am" sensation (Whence does the "I-I" arise?). That was his method. Nisargadatta Maharaj's "I am that" book prescribes to meditate on the "I am" feeling. I agree with your summary. In order to find the source of this "I am", one has to relinquish the grasp on all phenomena. Yes. When I first started reading Advaita vedanta, I couldn't understand anything. I put aside my lofty ideals and stuck with Taijiquan and Yoga/meditation. After 15 years, when I picked up the same material, it made complete sense to me.

did you read what I meant by ‘no mind’? No mind doesn’t imply the mind disappears. It only doesn’t grasp at things.

Have you considered diet? I have similar brain fog issues when I eat more carbs and sugar. Switch to a ketogenic style diet and the fog disappears within 3 days of being on it. Ketogenic diet is not a long-term solution (at least for me). So I do a 16-8 intermittent fasting regimen. Whenever I do so, fog disappears and there is a lot of mental clarity.

Ok 👍🏾

Of course Jnana is complete. It always is. Before the seeker begun seeking it was so, after the seeker realizes it is so. That said, experience shows that there indeed is a process of maturation, not of the jnana but within the individual. Now, if you say, "there is no individual...that is an appearance only", I'll say "if you are smacked on the head, you WILL hurt". So long as there is a body and mind, they are subject to the influence of the arrows (flying around in samsara). Body will age, disease will come. Prarabdha will playout. That is why tattvajnana and jivanamukti are considered distinct phases.

Yes indeed.

come on now! Aren't you jumping to conclusions here? I didn't bring anything up..it is all written in the shastras.

Yeah I used to say that too.

How do you know what to notice without first being taught? Without the jnana being revealed in some format to the seeker, it is very hard to have the direct apperception. Yes, other steps are helpful -- such as meditation, clearing the mind, focusing the mind, etc. They are all formative and help in the Haha not so fast mon ami... There is indeed a process of maturing the tattvajnani into a jivanamukta. These are the factors that are in play for that -- Is the jnani a krtopāsaka or an aktropāsaka? What is the state of vasanakshyaya?

No no...why should I have you on ignore? I have issues with some formatting stuff in my posts too. Sometimes I can't edit posts -- seems to be some issue with the "quote" feature here (or could just be me ) haha I am all for using "established" terminology where applicable.

How do you get to the reflectivity in direct experience without the "theoretical concepts"? There's nothing lofty about it. Just statements of facts... Agreed that ignorance never existed. Yet, there is an ongoing unfolding too. The realization is the first step -- tattvajnanam or brahmajnanam. The ongoing unfolding is how it transforms into jivanamukti.

Why not just learn the vocabulary? That's why it is being shared Really, one can't find anything more direct than Vedantic teachings (imho). Let me give an example. What if instead of being given a map, if you were given a detailed description of the map in textual format? Which is more effective? For some, a map is sufficient. Some need a map and detailed descriptions. Some prefer a list of turn-by-turn instructions. Which is better? Depends on the person who's using it.

Knowing is in reflection, but the Knower is not a reflection. Once there is the realization of one's true nature as Awareness, the same is recognized in all objects. The cognizance is that of one's own nature shining forth in objects. And it IS directly recognized. The reflection is also powered by awareness alone, there is no "reflection", "reflective material" or "object" apart from awareness. And it is a process, not a single 'big bang' -- a process of maturation and deepening of the realization is ongoing.

What I shared is not 'just theory' any more than a map is 'just a drawing'. Teachings are there to show the way, similar to maps. It is something that helps grasp what is being pointed to more easily than abstract statements without a proper framework. But at the end of the day, each person will take from something whatever their limitations allow them to. Little by little, or all at once, the limitations will reduce and finally disappear.

Actually it is very much in line with what you're describing. All objects have 5 qualities. Asti - Is-ness Bhati - Luminousness Priyam - 'Loved-ness' (best I could come to translating the word into english) Nama -- Name Rupa -- Form Asti-Bhati-Priyam is Brahmarupam Nama-Rupa is Jagadrupam While normally in our transactional mode of being, we only see the names and forms (Nama-Rupa) and operate as if that's all there is to the world, when we understand our relation wrt the object (aka world), we can see the Asti-Bhati-Priyam aspect too and with that a realization that what Nama-Rupa is an effect, while reality is Asti-Bhati-Priyam (Sat-Chit-Ananda). It is to be practiced and recognized, not just theorized.

Why not reference it by highlighting the brahmarūpam/jagadrūpam aspects of objects?

2-4 hours...but full lotus is not a must. Just cross-legged is fine. Also, what I find fascinating is that we (temple style) do quite a bit of what they're teaching (some things that stand out as being different are like the one about using a mirror to replay and release stuck energies from previous lifetimes, etc). I'm not really compiling a list, but bought the book out of curiosity and found it fascinating

I'm enjoying reading "The Taoist Alchemy of Wang Liping Volume 1" by Nathan Brine. It is a great intro to Wang Liping's lineage (FWIW, IMHO, Caveat Emptor, etc) I've read Damo's books, and I must say that while he does cover a lot of conceptual stuff, Nathan's book is really a practical manual that has a beautiful mix of his own experiences, with the actual introductory meditations and methods of WLP's lineage. What's most refreshingly endearing for me is how his humility shines forth in his words. Maybe @silent thunder or @Taomeow can comment on it too...as they are actually students from that lineage.

In Kashmir Shaivism, these are known as Prakāsha (Illumination) and Vimarsha (Reflection) and they go hand-in-hand. Illumination is the nature of Shiva, and reflection is his power (Shakti). The vimarsha part is articulated in chidābhāsha of Advaita Vedanta, in as much as I can grok it

It also shows how reincarnation and karma work together

This is a great topic for discussion. My master tells me wrt. being able to apply spiritual power in the world, "You have to believe 100%. Even if you believe 99% and 1% doubt remains, it will not work." I found that to be the case in my own experience as well, doubts block our abilities -- no matter what field it is. It will even block our own intelligence (which is a spiritual power too).

Wrt mishearing lyrics, what about the song “blinded by the light” where “douches” are being sung about? 🤔

I’ve been getting back to just sitting and sinking the mind back into the heart off late. Will continue with that.