allan-in-china

I'd like to clarify myself a little here. I thought quite a bit of that may be misinterpreted... Thaddeus I wasn't saying you are not interested in the dao, I was just saying some people aren't, and that's ok. Or it is also possibly a case of some people are deep down interested in the dao, but because of beliefs and other issues, just end up doing things that only succeed in taking them down other paths. They go down the other paths, because that is what they need to do to clean those issues up, then they come back, and possibly walk towards the dao or clean up other areas. I also don't really believe in worthy or unworthy, but hearing it doesn't bother me. I am more a believer in ready or not ready, or suitable or not suitable for a certain path. I am a believer that we will all eventually become enlightened, however many lifetimes that may take, and there are as many different paths as there are people in the world. We all find our paths. My personal belief is it is easier to choose one path and stick with it, as I believe this is more likely to result in success (more efficiently) than stopping part way along and then jumping to another path, but doing this is just (I believe) another case of personal beliefs or issues getting in the way of success, and so slowing us down. Pietro generally Taoists consider it is just best to keep quiet, and let others realise themselves when they are ready, unless they ask you for help, and by living your truth people will begin to ask for your help. Allan

Plato, I may be wrong here, and I'm not saying that to be polite, it is because I have come to a point in my practice where I am actually starting to accept that I may be wrong. So if what I say is useless to you, sorry. I'm going to do my best to write this from my heart, which is where I believe we need to come from. I'm going to comment on this and that, and hopefully we will both learn a little. Ok, first, I agree with you that most people pay for things that are entirely useless, and are not willing to pay for the things that have real value. This is a fact of life, it doesn't bother me, at least not as much as it used to. In my short time on this board I've come across a few interesting realisations, and they are helping me find peace, maybe it will be the same for you. This was really a surprise to me, but some people aren't interested in immortality or enlightenment. Many people just want to have a new toy to play with, here the usual new toy is qi. Just a new distraction on the path, very interesting and out of touch of the general population, but still just a new toy. This for me was a huge realisation, because I always assumed everyone was looking for what I was looking for, the dao. Some aren't. But you know the biggest realisation I had, it doesn't matter. That is so relieving to me, it means I don't have to go and educate anyone. If they want to play with qi, cool, go and play with qi. In a few years it will lose its lustre, and then they may want to find enlightenment, or maybe just a new toy, and you know what, I don't think it matters. It is so great. This means I can ignore others altogether, and if anyone comes to me looking for the dao I can point them in the right direction (well I haven't completely found it yet by any means, but I'm pretty sure I'm heading in the right direction). How much of a relief is that?? My teacher told me, don't go out and tell anyone what they should be doing, just embody your truth yourself, be like the sun, it always shines, it is always there for everyone, and it asks nothing of them. Due to my inability to keep up with my teacher, I usually finally understand what he meant by a certain thing about a year or two after he said it, but I'm doing my best. Maybe this will help you. I also have found recently in myself that I have a lot of sadness inside myself, I've known this for a long time, but I finally really felt it deep down, and you know what, feeling it deep down actually transformed it into happiness naturally. (For everyone's info I wasn't doing a mind-based practice, I was doing tai chi peacefully with a still mind - well still for me anyway...) I also found with this dropping of sadness, and just finding this happiness and satisfaction in myself, I didn't need to go out and tell anyone what they should be doing, I just found a bit more of myself, enough to know that everyone is right where they need to be right now. Some of us may become enlightened this lifetime, others won't, who cares?? We've all got a tonne of lives to spare, and hey, when we are ready the guys a step, or a few steps ahead of us will go, hey, I'm glad you're joining me. I've also got a slight comment about merit, which could be completely incorrect because I haven't felt merit deep down inside myself enough to really understand it yet, but I don't believe merit consists in going, ok that is a good deed, I will do that, to me it consists in finding ourselves, and then acting from the love and truth inside of us. If it is your truth to buy the book, then do it, if your truth is another path then do that. But I don't think doing it because you think it is a good deed is going to accumulate merit, if it isn't your truth. Another comment, and you will probably want to kill me soon, please know that you have helped me in the past, and I hope you will let me help you (if I am able). I read somewhere that you are doing 3 different types of therapy, because you are finding progress too slow (probably your website). My personal experience in this is (ok I don't have therapy experience but I have meditation experience and martial arts experience, and I assume they are interchangable) you would get much better results if you just chose one, and then did it three times as much as you are doing it now. Because one will push your personality (energy/whatever) in one way, then another will push it in another, then another will push it in another, and at the end of the day the progress from one will be interfered with by the others. Just my experience, but I found when I discovered the dissatisfaction inside myself, and released a bit of it (I've still got my own fair share) then I found I didn't need instant results anymore, and the strangest thing was that no longer needing instant results, resulted in faster results than ever before. Hopefully you will get something out of my crazy ramblings. And yes, as my Chinese gets better, and my cultivation improves I hope to make translations, and I sure hope people do buy them, but I think people should just trust their feelings on it, not do it because they think it is a good thing to do. Pietro, Freeform, Pietro what you tried to do was actually very nice, and I've gotten in trouble from my teacher for trying a very similar thing, that was when he told me the sun thing above. Once again this is my experience and probably completely wrong, because we all have different truths inside of us and perhaps this is your truth. The only thing I can say is we are all exactly where we need to be. I feel, as I assume you do, that Freeform is at the very beginning of stepping onto the path. (Freeform this is by no means an insult in anyway.) We are all exactly where we need to be right now, and that is beautiful. In a while, when experience has pushed us in different ways we will begin to become jaded to an extent, and that is the only way (I know of) to go deeper on the path, at that time we do have to divide between real and not real, good and bad, virtuous and not virtuous. If we are lucky we will find the right way, or we will have a more experienced person help us down the right path. If we are unlucky we will go the wrong way, or have a more experienced person send us down a false path. But whichever way we go will be exactly what we need. And yes, I expect that most people will walk false paths, because I think most people aren't ready for enlightenment, even if I wish they were. I have a friend who I believe has walked very deeply down a wrong path, and to me it is obvious but to him he is sure he is walking the right way.... Am I right?? I'm rambling, but basically we all are where we need to be, and if we are lucky enough to find "real" teachings, then we will dissolve our problems, and grow, otherwise we won't but we will still get experience and progress exactly as we need to. Li Jiong, Welcome. What character is your name? It isn't in standard pinyin. I assume the li is like plum. I think you may have been received badly because you very quickly posted in a way that came across as you were just interested in making money from the worthy among the people here. My advice if it is worth anything is not to make any mention of worthy or unworthy, it isn't appreciated in western cultures. We are all subject to yuan fen or the destiny heaven gives us, and our part in it, some people may be interested but mentioning worthy or unworthy will make people wary. I also think one problem is, you haven't really given people any reason to trust you. And I don't mean this in any bad way, it is just we don't know your past, or anything about you, and then you appear trying to sell us something. Maybe you could write something (here or on your website) about how you studied, if you had a teacher, etc. My impression at the moment is you had an yiquan (martial arts) teacher but you learned your meditation from a book (the real meaning of the dao de jing). Is this correct? I believe if you want people to trust you, you need to show them something of yourself first. Anyways, that's just my opinion, hope it helps. Guys, I really hope I didn't come across as a teacher or anything, because I have no ability in that area (give me a few years maybe??), I've been lucky enough to get a bit of what I consider "real" experience, and I hope to share it, and hope it is useful for you. Wish you all the best. And if you guys think I am incorrect or off center in any of my postings, please feel free to call me on it. Oh yeah (ignoring my own advice?), Freeform, please don't dismiss what Pietro wrote too lightly, because I feel there really is some value for you there if you are willing to sit with it for a while. What I have found is any idea will start on the intellectual level, this is the entry point. Then it will be tested, and after some time it will either be integrated deeper into the body, or proven wrong. An example of this is something I wrote on my website about the presence of a good teacher. I had read about it (intellectual impression), I had experienced it myself (don't know how to define, maybe feeling level), but even though I had really experienced it on a number of occasions with different people, it wasn't until one day when I was practicing a stepping method that I practice for tai chi (I have had so many insights from performing this stepping method, it amazingly enough helps me forget about the outside world, and become quiet inside), that it really hit me. Wahhhh. It was like I was hit my a truck, or like massive excitement breaking out from inside of me. And then I was like, ohhhhhhh, now I get it..... It had finally sunk deeply into my body, I had really understood it (ok there may be more levels later, and I have no idea why that idea decided to process itself at that time, but hey, that's what happened)... Hope that helps. Take care guys. Allan And I have no doubt that some of this was written because I have something inside me that is scared of people thinking I am stupid, and wants to be really smart, eventually it will be integrated too, and I will probably talk and ramble less.

Just a quick clarification because I'm realising emotion isn't easy to convey in a written medium... When I said good or evil... My meaning was in a helpful or an unhelpful way, used in a way with or used in a way not with the dao. When I said helped me see truth and non-truth outside of myself, this by no means indicates that I have any idea when someone is lying, I think it is feeling the depth something is coming from (emotion, or deeper), but I could be wrong, I've only discovered it a little and don't by any means understand it, and it is not consistent yet. I wrote something to clear up mistakes, and filled it with new mistakes... Argh. Allan

Agree with basically everything said, good points by everyone. With regard to Trunk's points, I feel they are very correct. I think you really need to experience what it is like working directly with a good teacher to really appreciate it. If I had never experienced it myself, I would probably think it was all junk just written by some guy in a book looking for students. In fact, going back in my experience a few years, I used to think I could do it all on my own... Now I think I was wrong.

Just a quick thing to add, have you read stephen coveys 7 habits, it talks about something like a circle of influence, and a circle of interest (or something like that can't remember exact terms). Ideally the circles should be the same size, interest too big - wasting your mind power, interest smaller than influence - wasting your ability. They should both grow slowly together. Something like that, covey explains it a lot better than me. Allan

You're probably right, this is probably again a case of attaching different meanings to different words. My "teacher" after he first taught me I asked him in Chinese if I should call him "shi fu" the "teacher-father"/"master", and he said just to call him by his name. He has said he is just someone further down the path who is helping me, a friend. I don't really consider taking a teacher to be putting anyone above me, but I believe that a teacher's guidance is extremely valuable, because in so many cases if we just act on our initially ego-driven feelings we will be changing practices every five minutes and never actually reach any depth. All I can say is if my "teacher"/friend didn't guide me, I can imagine I would never have gotten anywhere. But that is my belief, if you ask him I am sure he would say I would have done fine on my own, he just helped nudge me in the right direction which is possibly also true, because we all find what we are looking for, maybe this was just a shorter path, maybe it was longer? With my tai chi teacher, I believe it is the same, the titles are different, because he will be taking me as a "disciple" and I will be taking him as a "teacher-father"/"master" but overall I am still the person making the choice, if he tells me something, I have a choice to believe or disbelieve, or test and see for myself. Or if he tells me to practice something, it is me who has the final call. In most cases with people further down the path, because I am stubborn, I have disbelieved most things they have said, but the seed was planted, and eventually through my own practice I found they were right. But I believe everything has to come back to your own experience. Anyways, I think only the student can give away power, the teacher/master can never take it. Allan

Hey Thaddeus, I realised quite some time after this that my answer was very incomplete. This thing I was practicing was to control the excessive sexual energy that I was experiencing at the time. My teacher put two meditations together, one the original I was doing, plus an addition of two elements to make sure I didn't go crazy from sexual desire, once the sexual desire was overcome (it was basically a plateau), I dropped the two extra elements and just went back to one focus. Allan Hey Neimad, Yeah the process is quite interesting I've had times apologising to myself, to the person I did whatever to, to the god, just whatever is appropriate at the time, it can be very mixed... surrender, the only way I've found not to forget the good stuff, is not to change, not to have too much on your plate at one time, you can only handle so much, besides if you always switch practices, you never find that everything is contained in the depths of each practice, you just need to go deep enough to find it, and amazingly one practice will add depth just as fast as you can handle and integrate it... my experience anyways, good luck. Allan

Not going to reply to anything specific, I just felt it was necessary to write something here so here I am... This will be fairly random. These ideas are all my own, and probably completely incorrect, but all from experience, except where I attribute to others. Ok power/love/wisdom I actually lost my stillness in response to this one, so what I wrote above was crap. And I think actually dividing between them is mostly crap also, they are all part of one spectrum. What I was responding to was lower/middle/upper dantian but the way I responded was crap in this case also, taoist practice focuses generally speaking on the lower dantian for beginners, and for me focusing on the lower dantian with a visualisation actually filled my lower dantian, then started filling the middle dantian, and after that was full it started pumping energy into the upper dantian, and this hasn't filled yet, so actually dividing was stupid of me, I just focused on one and the rest fell into line. Please note the above has nothing practicable in it. Ok I'm going to get out of my experience and throw something in for interest here: my teacher said most taoist practices start in the lower dantian, some start in the upper dantian, and a few start in the middle dantian, but starting in the middle is rare because without really great guidance you can cause sleeping troubles which will generally speaking stuff up your life. Sleep is probably the most important thing in the world for ordinary mortals. Back to my experience: Ok, the intellect is to me a tool. It like all tools can be used for good and evil... What divides it? Our own inner feelings in my experience. Like I said a lot of the intellectual stuff used to really interest me, but now it has dropped. Am I in a lapse? All I can tell is I found truth inside myself and that helped me see truth and non-truth outside of myself. I believe this will be useful for your life purpose questions. A few years ago I asked my teacher if I will know why I was born where I was, and why everything is the way it is, he said with time and practice, it will become clear to me. I think there has probably also been some misunderstanding of what I wrote based on the responses, this is partially due to my inadequate ability to communicate, and partially due to the inadequate ability of words to describe feelings, which is all our intellect seems to be to me, just another protocol/interface/connection between our emotions and the outside world. My teacher has encouraged me to study philosophy: specifically the dao de jing, zhuang zi and lie zi. He himself is in the process of rearranging a book written by a taoist in the song dynasty for his own personal use, so philosophy is definitely important in his and my worldview. Intellect is also a great tool when used well. Another area where I think misinterpretation arose was my dividing between wisdom and intellectualism. To me wisdom is correct use of the intellect, and intellectualism is incorrect use. So once again either my fault, or the fact that we all attach different meanings to the same words. I also think talking about some things that people can relate to is valuable, like Dirk uses the idea of 4 different parts of a person, because we can all relate to that, as he himself said, in the 4dim work they know of 7 but find most people can't relate to that, I ask, what value is something that people can't relate to? Yes what people can relate to will change over time, and so does it's value. Ok I'm theorizing, getting intellectual, my definition of intellectual, is anything which isn't in my truth, fairly limited definition admittedly... So I'll keep my philosophy coming from the dao de jing, zhuang zi, and lie zi until I find I need something more, but I'd imagine that will be quite a few years away... By the way I like what neimad wrote about simplicity. This is pretty similar to my philosophy, but I think when I reach a certain level of stillness I may have interest in what I currently call intellectual things, probably because by that time my depth of experience will have increased. Ok hope that helped, like I said I could be completely wrong, and I did get too intellectual (my version) here, showing I need to get back to my stillness, and shut up. I'm going to try to keep my opinions to myself until I at least have some experience in things. But feeling like I'm right is nice for a while. Good luck, Allan

Sean, thank you for your input here, I'm sorry if I am a bit harsh and come across as being too sure of myself in my replies, I suppose that is just where I am, and it will sort itself out in time. In the meantime, I'll try to temper it a bit... I believe that burning your head out and this sort of thing is due to a lack of grounding, I think intellectual discussions may be possible further down the track, but that significant amounts of grounding and clarity are necessary first. But I guess it just goes back to the thing a taoist from a mountain said to one of my friends, "Everyone finds the dao when they are ready", so I guess the thinking too much (if it exists) will just disappear when the time is right, and who knows it may reappear when the time is right... I personally found that with strengthening my body, and this, for me, was through tai chi that I was able to not burn my head out, and was able to go back to shopping centers and crowds and handle myself. I agree with the three centers idea, but I believe it is also safest to do it in that order, power then love then wisdom, filling from the bottom up. At the moment I am somewhere between the power and the love parts. In my experience if you take on everything at once, then you will achieve nothing, if you focus your efforts, you can break through. To be honest I definitely used to be a 12 book at a time reader, I found a good method from my wife, if I find a bit of the book I don't find interesting I'll just skip it and move on, that way I don't get sidetracked. And when I come back to the book for another reading, I may be ready for that section. Before I needed to read cover to cover, now I can give it up a little. Though I've always got my trusty dao de jing on my table... I think certain things are important for some people at certain times, and other things aren't. Allan

LOL! Everything happens when you are ready for it Daniel. I certainly haven't let go of it by a long way, but I have found I can redirect it into more appropriate channels which is very helpful when you are married. I found for the first two years of practice my sexual desire became a great deal higher than before, in the third it eased because I was able to redirect it, although I am expecting it will come in cycles of higher, then lower, then higher again. And who said anything about sexual performance??? From experience that just keeps getting better with practice. Also I don't think no sexual desire would mean that you would never make love, it just goes from a more physical process to a more loving and spiritual process. Actually thinking about it the sexual desire hasn't diminished, it has just changed form, gone from a primal must be satisfied instinct, to an act of love. I love this forum, everytime I try to answer a question I learn a lot more myself. Thank you. It seems a transformation rather than a disappearance. I believe Dirk Oellibrandt and Barry Long have a great deal of very interesting things to say about sexual desire and making love. I'm going to get too intellectual here... Thinking about it, I suppose there would be a point where the sexual process may internalise itself. I have a friend who travelled to a mountain where a taoist there told him, "Everyone finds the dao when they are ready for it." Don't worry, your sexual desire won't transform or disappear until you are ready. Allan

I've heard not eating breakfast is quite bad for the gall bladder, it is supposed to be easier to get gall stones. I've got no idea if that is true though?? Allan

I think with letting go of sexual desire, it should just happen naturally. Do your meditation, and with time the desire can drop, or maybe it becomes easier to control, at least it doesn't affect me so much anymore... The whole personality seems to slowly clean itself up... I'm not sure whether he means we shouldn't have too much sex or we shouldn't ejaculate... If it is the second, that becomes much easier when the microcosmic orbit (or small universe) opens. It becomes incredibly easy - there's too much energy there, ok move it; there's too little energy there, ok move it. Allan

Sean, here I am in complete agreement with you. But I also have a feeling many people are putting the cart before the horse. If you look at the way Wang Liping was trained in Opening the Dragon Gate, you will see first he was put in a room, and had his belief system and world view completely wiped clean, his mind was empty after phase one. Then they started building again from scratch. A lot of what I've seen is we are building, without cleaning. Cleaning can't be talked about, it is just done. My belief is having a conception that certain things exist is important, but you don't need to go and read other people's views of them, because that will twist your worldview to match theirs, and theirs isn't necessarily right. (Though further down the path this is probably very important and useful). A student of my tai chi teacher's teacher told me about reading tai chi magazines, "they are useful for getting an idea that certain things exist, but knowing that thing exists is enough, then you go and experience it yourself". In fact you will find that the dao de jing is almost a roadmap for understanding tai chi chuan... and vice versa... I can only talk about my training over here, whenever I say "this happened in my meditation" my teacher will just respond "yes, that can happen, that's normal, keep going". He never tells me what it is, why it is, etc. And I believe that is because I have too much junk to wipe clean first. My teacher is definitely a philosopher, and he talks about the dao and theories and many things a great deal with different people, but with me because I am learning from him, and because I am quite early on the path, he only discusses things that are critical to practice. When I asked him about wuwei which people (including him) could probably write books about, he just said "for you, at the moment, it means sitting and doing nothing", because that is all my level of experience can reach. He's told me many stories about different people practicing meditation, and their successes through patience. He's told me many stories about what sort of people succeed on the path, and the importance of virtue. He's told me what sort of practices are useful and important for beginners. In the future when I've reached certain meditation milestones, I'm sure that the philosophy will be turned up, but I believe emptiness comes before developing knowledge. The only thing I can say for certain is, my thinking and desire to read this sort of article reduced with meditation. After I had reached a certain level in my meditation, I realised this isn't important for me now. From the dao de jing: My interpretation of these isn't necessarily correct it is very possible I'm using them in the wrong context, but open your mind to the possibility, may I be right? (I'm using the Lin Yutang translation here.) chapter 65: The ancients who knew how to follow the Tao Aimed not to enlighten the people., But to keep them ignorant. The reason it is difficult for the people to leave in peace Is because of too much knowledge. Those who seek to rule a country by knowledge Are the nation's curse. Those who seek not to rule a country by knowledge Are the nation's blessing. chapter 53: If I were possessed of Austere Knowledge, Walking on the Main Path (Tao), I would avoid the by-paths. the Main path is easy to walk on, Yet people love the small by-paths. My belief is emptiness is the first stage, when emptiness is realised, then knowledge can be built. Hope I've added something for you here. Taoists do build specific skills such as sexual practice, moving qi through the meridians, opening and closing the meridians, astral projection, etc. but usually they do it after they have a firm base in stillness and emptiness. I believe this is because once you have this base, you can understand the true simplicity and source of the specific skills, whereas before they all seem very much like "by-paths". I personally have yet to meet a taoist who practices in the way the majority of western practitioners do, every single practicing taoist I've met has been practicing stillness and clearing the mind first... But there are many who I haven't met. Just in response to Cameron's post. I do actually like many spiritual works, and I think they are valuable. I just don't like technical specifics, this is from deep feelings (and as I was saying before I meditated this stuff really interested me). The quote from Dirk's newsletter posted by Ian was like music to my ears. The works by enlightened people really interest me. From the taoist camp dao de jing, zhuang zi, lie zi. Outside I'm not very widely read, but there are many works that are quite beautiful. You will see they usually don't talk about any technical details, they talk about ways of looking at life and are usually much more simple, that to me is beautiful. And I do believe your realisation of the meanings change as your consciousness changes and you have more experiences that you can recognise in their works. But just because things don't work for me, doesn't mean they are wrong, that is just where I am at the moment, and who knows, when I reach the next milestone whatever that is, maybe this stuff will really start to strike up my interest again. Allan

Actually I couldn't view it (the picture didn't show up on my browser), the training I am doing over here basically is following the above structure, I've learned the form and I'm doing push hands work. Allan

Trunk, I'm sorry I wasn't trying to say you were wrong. I was just trying to say to Cameron that he is right too. I can only talk for my own path here, I don't and can't understand anyone else's path, so please forgive any mistakes. My path is very simple, I have two meditations which I do everyday, then I do tai chi chuan. So for me the article makes no difference, it will change nothing for me. I will still do my two meditations everyday, and I will still do tai chi chuan everyday. If I were doing many meditations as with healing tao practitioners then an article like this may encourage me to tune the time I was spending doing one meditation, or maybe I would make some other sort of changes. I am not walking that path, and do not understand it. I gave it up because it didn't work for me. That isn't to say it is wrong, I just can't handle it... I remember a time when I loved to read articles like that, but now I can't... For me simple practice that I don't even have to think about is what it is about. I have found with nothing in my head (but awareness?), knowledge presents itself, I don't go anywhere for it, and I have the benefit of having a teacher who if there is anything that I must know, he will just give it to me at the right time. Sometimes in meditation a question will arise, then either be answered or dissolve and I will know it is unimportant. People practice dream yoga, sexual practice, this that... I practice two seated meditations, and the sexual practice has come on its own, and I am starting to regularly have strange experiences waking up in dreams, or waking up in my body and finding I can't move, I've had an experience of falling into my body from sleep, but these things are all just side effects of the path I've been walking. I have found the only compromise I've had to make is to give myself up, and let the dao live me. But I haven't fully realised that, in fact my realisation of it is extremely shallow. To me the more simple the realisation the more truth it has for me. Please don't assume from any of this that I am far down the path, because I am not. I'm experiencing a few beginning stage things, and my teacher's realisation is so far beyond me I cannot comprehend it. The further I walk the further I realise he is ahead. Let me reemphasise that I don't understand anyone else's path. A lot of guys here seem to walk an intellectual path, and I think that can work too, it's just I've never met anyone who has realised themselves by working on details and goals, but I'm sure it is possible. My path has just been letting go of anything too technical, making the meditation my own, and letting it be, letting myself be. I won't say anything about your path, except that I don' t understand it, and I hope you forgive any lack of humility. Before I was walking my path I had a bit too much psychic sensitivity I guess, when I walked in crowds I became very uncomfortable picking up on other peoples feelings - I became shy, I could tell a lot about a person from looking at them, and I had some strange meditative experiences when I was young like feelings of movement and space in my body, strange sensations, strange tastes and feelings that have only started to present themselves again now. (My teacher has said I practiced in my last life, but he has a great sense of humour and I have no idea whether he was joking or not.) This is why I work to keep energy grounded and lower in my body, my sensitivity and vulnerability is greater than a lot of people, so I work to keep my energy down. Thinking too much would cause too many troubles. Thinking too much is part of my makeup, and something that through my meditation work has improved significantly (though I have so far to go). Allan

I have no idea.. As long as I can see it with my web browser... I think it depends on which lineage you are looking at, and the teacher, Bruce isn't the only teacher trying to keep the knowledge alive, there are those in China who want to do the same, but overall I can agree with that. This is tai chi chuan, not Shaolin!! Maybe I'll have to check it out sometime - but anyone with any basic knowledge of "real" tai chi chuan would be able to see that 99% of people are just waving their arms around when practicing, and anyone with a little skill would also be able to pick out who is good, or maybe even try the simple method of trying to push them and seeing what happens... So I can understand why they wouldn't be happy about the state of the art at the moment, most people think tai chi chuan is exercise for old people not a martial art. Although I believe meditation leaves signs... Just not so easy for people to see. I've heard there are some very skilled Go players in Kunming, Yunnan Province south of where I live. I'm in Chengdu, Sichuan Province. I'm sure we can get a headstart here. If you want to get in contact with me then just use the contact page on my website or maybe use a personal message. Allan

Like I was saying you need to be selective about the teacher, I figure I have a little to add to the last post. I've noticed an incredible number of people end up chasing people who are in my opinion fakes, that is why I wrote my website I've seen a number of my friends burned, and some still getting burned now even though they don't realise it. I really hope that I can help people find the real thing. Hopefully some people will realise what the real deal is, and the difference between it and what most people are getting. I've spoken to my wife about this, in admittedly quite a great deal of frustration at one time (though it is easing and doesn't bother me half as much as it used to), and she simply replied "Maybe those people studying from them are really getting something out of it. Just because they are not getting the real deal doesn't mean that they are not getting anything. It isn't a part of all of our fate to get real teachings. Maybe they are getting what they need now, maybe they are not ready for the real thing." That was a revelation for me. Ok I know the idea of real teachings is a bit of a bad subject here, but having seen what I've seen I believe it is true. Maybe the 'disciples' you know are just not ready for real instruction and so they chose their teachers. As Wang Xiangzhai said: "You need to have the combination of right teacher, right student, and right art". I'm not going to put up a real defense for myself and I'm not going to take it as an insult, rather just as a general sometimes true comment. I'll just say that this is a step toward what I want to be doing, it isn't the final destination, just part of the path. I also think that being a disciple is something much misunderstood in the west, and also something that has changed a great deal in China. It is true that in the past disciples would look after their teacher, they would work in the teacher's house, they would cook and do many tasks for the teacher, bow everyday or something. Now that isn't really the case, or if it is, that isn't mainstream anymore. Becoming a disciple in modern China is basically benefits, going to the teacher's house for dinner and private instruction with minimal restrictions the only restrictions are for the safety of the public and the student. Another one of my teachers disciples is a disciple to about three different teachers, he gave up the other two because he found better... Although I will say in China you bow to your parents on occasion, like at a wedding you bow to your parents. The word translated to "master" in Chinese originally means "teacher father", it isn't a bad thing, some teachers will take advantage of it, and others have virtue. I've got the benefit of basically being considered a stupid little brother by my taoist teacher, and when he checked out the tai chi chuan teacher I found, he just said "he's good, practice". Which great master can attribute their greatness to a disciple relationship? Ok Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan founder) was disciple to his uncle Guo Yunshen who was a disciple of Li Luoneng who was a disciple of Dai Longbang who was a disciple of Cao Jiwu who was a disciple of Ji Jike (basically considered founder of xingyiquan). Wu Jianquan (founder of wu style tai chi chuan) was a disciple to Yang Yu. Yang Chengfu was a disciple to his father Yang Jian who was a disciple to his father Yang Luchan (founder of yang style) who was a disciple to (no family relationship) Chen Changxin. Basically every person who has achieved any skill has had a very skilled teacher. (there are definitely going to be exceptions, but not many) If you are talking modern, then there are those who would argue Bruce Frantzis from Liu. Adopted son is basically the same as disciple minus some restrictions which would usually be followed for moral reasons anyway... Which great master hasn't had a great teacher? Disciple seems a very bad word in the west due to western views of the world, yet everyone is willing to call this teacher or that teacher master so and so. I've been very careful on my site just to call everyone Mr. or Mrs. I don't believe in the master concept. I was talking to my wife's guqin teacher, she has just started studying tai chi chuan with our teacher, and I asked her do you have a "teacher father" (shifu) relationship with your teacher or a "teacher" (laoshi) relationship with him. She looked at me strangely and said, they are the same thing, what are you talking about? This is in my opinion just a western misunderstanding of a chinese concept, mistranslated and squeezed into a different culture that isn't built to take the concept... A lot of people assume everything to be watered down over time, and I believe there is some truth in that, but in China people have a tendency to tell amazing stories about their teachers which aren't necessarily true, which are then made even bigger by their students and so on. I basically have the belief that just about anything is possible, but I also keep a critical eye and question everything (that is worth questioning). Allan

Haven't read the other thread yet, but basically it does really depend on the teacher, if I didn't trust the teacher then I wouldn't study with them. The disciple relationship I can walk out of at any time if I want to. The only thing I see is it is about is to ensure quality. I won't be given permission to teach (the inner techniques) until I have reached a certain level of ability, and that is exactly what I believe in. This ensures that I won't be causing any student damage by introducing them to techniques that may cause them great deals of harm that I can't clean up. My teacher wasn't given permission to pass techniques to students and take disciples for many, many years. The under someone's wings idea, I don't really agree with, each person is different with different levels of ability, some students surpass their teachers, but it isn't frequent. The internal arts simply get better with practice, how can a student catch up 25, 50, 75 years? The same is true of meditation. And to be honest our distractions are becoming more and more with the years. Can you imagine Yang Chengfu was sitting on a computer chatting on the tao bums? No, he was practicing. Anyways, basically I wouldn't choose a teacher who I didn't trust. Allan

I'll try to remember to ask at class tomorrow. But none of the students at the class do standing, and say it is only a supplement, but not essential. The only thing about this I can say is my taoist teacher has told me not to bother with standing. He has said it isn't necessary for tai chi chuan, he has great ability with tai chi chuan (I've pushed hands briefly with him and he defeated me too easily everytime, I can't even move him...), he has told me he can throw people part of the time, but not all the time yet, it is like he is at the doorway to mastery but only part way through it (he's been practicing for about 15 years). His teacher could also throw people with any part of his body. Just to clarify he didn't show me, but I believe him and I didn't ask him to show me. I don't know whether my body could take it (fa li) at this stage. He actually travelled around a lot of China looking for skilled tai chi chuan practitioners and looking for what the thread between the best guys was, he came up with meditation as the answer, but he isn't sure it is correct. Standing meditation is certainly a type of meditation, but he suggested for me just sit and practice, if I were to spend an hour sitting or an hour standing I would get more out of the sitting, but it does depend on the goals... So to clarify I've done quite a lot of standing in the past, but at the moment I just do sitting meditation and tai chi chuan. Actually the book is back in Australia, and I haven't read it for quite a few years, if you are willing could you summarise the steps? The disciple things are true. I've been practicing with these guys long enough to know that I do actually want to become a disciple now, and will be speaking with my teacher about it this week, his other disciples have seen how hard I study, and have been telling me if I really want to learn real tai chi then I will have to join the lineage. I can practice the form for 20 years and have less progress than I would as a disciple in about a year or two. The disciple tradition is really based on not letting real martial arts be taught to people who would misuse it (ie hurt people etc.) To become a disciple: the teacher must accept you; you need to agree to never use the techniques to harm people; and there are some other conditions that I'm not 100% clear on yet. There is some secrecy, but the overall intent is to protect people. I've heard about the inner techniques being learned from books and energy ending up flowing down the wrong meridians and people getting very sick, the disciple thing is to protect the public and students. As you said in China if you want to learn the real thing, then you do have to become a disciple. Going back to the village, I could, but I don't really like Chen style, doesn't suit my personality... Maybe in the future, but at the moment I've got so much information to digest, and so much to get good at that if I added anything else I would be hurting myself. Just as there are a number of other taoist teachers I want to check out, but I've got what I need to practice and I need to get good first before I make another step. I'm more interested in the meditation path myself, tai chi chuan is just a supplement to keep my body together (although I definitely want to get good at it). So I'll be chasing down the taoist teachers first... Pietro, I've been thinking if we met I'm almost sure we would have a big argument for about 10 minutes and then become great friends. If you want to come to China let me know. Hopefully by that time I'll have some real gong fu to show, and we can push hands. Otherwise I'll just point you to some good teachers and you can push with them... Allan

To be honest I've got no idea. I think you have to be able to fight to walk the path we've been talking about, but maybe he was making his own path and he may have been a long way down that? I think the fundamental belief in the value of yourself is really important though, with all simplistic models, in some areas people will look like they are level 3 (or whatever level) while in other areas they will look very underdeveloped. Although my personal belief is you can't really fully love others, if you don't love yourself. He may have just been really opposed to physical fighting due to his genetics or past? But I don't want to begin psychoanalysing someone I don't know, because I'm bound to get it wrong, and quite probably annoy you. Lol! Allan

Lol! Actually I think what you are thinking is actually quite correct. Why does everything have to be made so complicated? Where the majority of people are, learning about this stuff, is quite useless in my opinion. Why? Because it is only making an impression on an intellectual level. Taoism isn't about being an intellectual. Find the best tai chi chuan master in the whole world, and they can tell people the subtle details of tai chi, and using qi to throw people, and all the other interesting things you can do with it. But is this going to help the person? At the end will they be able to go and do that? Not likely, they will probably just have a headache and be yawning from being given too much information that they have no possibility of applying to their life. All of these things will present themselves through meditation, and thinking about them will just give you expectations, which isn't helpful (for me anyway) in meditation. What I find useful is asking can I feel the truth in this? If not then it isn't appropriate for me, whether it really is true or not. I believe the only real learning is done in feeling, not in the head. But people love to have intellectual discussions, they're fun right? I certainly get caught up in it quite often myself... Anyways, just my rambling, if you feel truth in it use it, if not... If it helps, to this point (practicing with one teacher since late 2002) he has never talked about jing, qi, or shen in any detail, he has given me only what I needed, and nothing to get me thinking and caught up in my head, meditation already presents enough troubles without me adding to it... Allan

Yoda, WXZ did teach his students different postures, but I think they all followed his basic rule arms in front of the chest. In fact this is the reason that I think to study this it is necessary to have a good teacher, you can do the generic embracing the tree, but when I met an Yiquan practitioner (a Mr Yu, he is very famous in China, but doesn't speak English so I would imagine he is unknown outside of China) he actually taught me a to hold a position based on my body (he looked me over and moved my arms to the right point), and that form seemed very effective for me. But I imagine if someone else was taught then they would have a different optimum position for them. Refering back to your original post, I think with standing some seated meditation (emptiness probably most suitable) may be required to actually really absorb the energy. But with time your body can take more. Standing meditation is great if your desire is to become a good martial artist, but if you are looking for more of a meditation side (enlightenment/immortality) then seated meditation is more effective. Pietro, let me first say I'm not trying to add wood to the fire here, I am actually quite interested in your perspective because you have a teacher in this style. Originally what I intended to say was: this form (200 postures) probably isn't intended for enlightenment or probably is intended for specific effects (special powers seems to be loaded words around here!). Whereas just standing in one position and forgetting is more intended for enlightenment. When I say specific effects I mean activating certain meridians or making the energy move in a certain way. This to me seems it could be helpful for treating certain sicknesses/diseases or whatever, or to achieve certain aims, but enlightenment seems to be more of a letting go, and becoming present. My understanding of this is standing in one position is enough to get the essence of standing, and then you can just relax and let the rest happen naturally. I had a teacher who basically only did standing in one position (he had probably practiced for about 20 years), who was a very good martial artist and had a very developed personality. He told me, when standing the best experience is just being. Although if you stabilised certain postures for long enough I can imagine you still may experience that being, in my experience though moving energy this way, then that way, then that way, just slows down actually getting good at something. Also I have to disagree with standing is necessary for tai chi chuan. My teacher's teacher is considered one of the top tai chi chuan practitioners in China and does no standing, my teacher is his top student and does no standing - just want to clarify these guys do push hands, and have real skill, not beautiful empty forms. My taoist teacher has also said that standing was introduced to tai chi chuan recently because people now move too fast when they do tai chi and so don't get the real feel for it. Although in China there are a million different stories about everything, so who knows who is right. As far as I know, Zhang Sanfeng, and Yang Chengfu probably the two most famous tai chi chuan people in history did no standing. I'm interested in your views on this. Allan

Lozen I'm sorry for your loss. Yes, definitely. I see the stages as: 1. infant - protected by parents no ability to protect yourself 2. adult - protecting yourself and others 3. can't really think of a good name (senior doesn't seem to do it...) ok I'll go for enlightened warrior, but that is a bit far out I will admit... - protecting yourself, others and your enemy Pacifism usually seems to be jumping from ok I can't protect myself, to ok I'll pretend I'm an enlightened warrior who doesn't want to hurt others, but as you guys have been saying you need to hit and master each stage. Though this certainly isn't what pacifists think consciously... Here some people have reacted by giving you advice on what training you should have, etc. etc. But I want to throw something different in if you don't mind more friendly advice. You say you are already with a great martial arts teacher, then that is perfect. Just keep training. If I were you I wouldn't and get this training and that training, because in my experience, that will just lead you to being stuck in stage 1 and 2. My experience has been I've been a white belt in about 3 martial arts, as well as a beginner in 3 chinese martial arts (they don't have belts, but I was still terrible...). So I've been a beginner in 6 martial arts. With all those martial arts, could I fight? No... It wasn't till I got my head on straight and said, ok lets stop being a jack of all trades and just be a master of one, that I actually learned how to fight, and started making progress. Now I'm not at stage 3 yet, though I certainly have a tendency to avoid confrontation, but I'm actually going in that direction. One other thing just backing the peaceful vs passive thing, one of my earlier martial arts teachers (who was very good, but I've moved to another country so...) told me of one of his experiences when he was starting learning the internal arts. He was hit by another bagua zhang practitioner, and he said the hit was so full of love, that he just fell down and cried. I believe you can be lovingly violent when appropriate. Recently in the news over here there was a story: a man was being threatened by 6 people, and he was doing all he could to avoid confrontation, eventually the people attacked him, turns out he was a very skilled martial artist, and he beat the crap out of them. This is one of the reasons I study the martial arts, I want to have the confidence in myself that if I can avoid a fight I will, but if I can't avoid the fight, then I can handle it. Please take care of yourself. Allan

With this sort of thing, I think the only real way to learn is directly with a teacher, who can look at you and see you have really understood. People can tell me, or show me something 100 times and I won't necessarily understand it, but working directly with a good teacher, he can check your posture, and move your arms the way you should move them, and keep doing it until you get it. My tai chi teacher has told me about my hips close to a million times, and I keep thinking I am doing it correctly, right until he pushes me down into the correct position again... And the silk spinning stuff like Thaddeus was saying pretty much comes from correct practice of the form. Though there are exercises to work on it directly. Allan

You could try: 1. Lao Zi's Dao De Jing 2. Zhuang Zi 3. Lie Zi - The three taoist classics. Allan