mbanu

Not in the slightest, of which I am relieved.

It's a tradeoff. Caloric restriction burns jing more slowly, but often results in a weaker constitution. However, in America and most of the developed world, a strong constitution really wouldn't be required if minor lifestyle adjustments were made. Modern houses are well sealed against the environment, often with advanced climate control. The chances of one needing to, say, trudge 30 miles home in the snow with a broken leg because the horse spooked and threw you is very small. Of course, there are always auto accidents, but trauma medicine is extremely well-developed. If people were willing to sleep instead of use stimulants, practice sexual moderation, avoid unnecessary stress, and practice caloric restriction eating warm well-cooked foods (basically the standard TCM advice for young people who want to live to be old people) they would most definitely live a long time.

You've surely seen the video floating around the internet, maybe under its formal name "A Heap of Trouble", or perhaps under its more technically accurate folk name "Nine Naked Men". But there is a Taoist background that is often neglected! This is a re-telling of the story of the Tenth English Immortal. It also clears up why he is classically depicted wearing that odd hat. http://www.stevesullivan.co.uk/heapmov.html Edit: So I've been told that technically they are the ten British immortals, not English. Being the stereotypically oblivious American that I am, I hadn't realized. Who knew?

Oops, there was an edit! Didn't see. D: Hmm, first I guess a definition would be good? My understanding of Te is that it refers to the natural manifestations of an object. "Virtue" isn't an incorrect way of expressing this, but the way that it means is a way that isn't really common in English anymore, I don't think. For instance, the Te of a rock (well, many rocks) is that it is hard. That is, it is hard "by virtue of" it being a rock. A better word for Te might be something along the lines of "genuineness". Unfortunately, this makes Te kinda hard (for me at least) to describe second hand, because Te isn't in the actions performed exactly, it's in the thing performing them. The Te of a rock is not the Te of a butterfly, even if sometimes the rock grasps Te by flying through the air, and sometimes the butterfly grasps Te by resting on the ground. I guess Te is really something that needs to be witnessed. This probably sounds like a lot of hemming and hawing. I guess this is just my way of saying I am unable to supply approprite descriptions. I doubt my notes on watching dogs run around or cats clean themselves and take naps would really have the desired effect. I'm not trying to be mystical or anything. I hate those cryptic fuckers. There are a lot of places one can witness Te, though. Babies while unaware of their parents, animals that neither fear nor cater to humans, very drunk people sometimes... The biggest problem to witnessing Te is in having an unclear mind. When the mind isn't clear, the Te of others becomes like a mirror; all one sees are one's own thoughts and feelings reflected back at them. People anthropomorphize and project, and when the original nature of the thing arises, it is quickly obscured. Plus there's temporary Te and true Te. Temporary Te is fleeting, it can be induced by circumstances, exercises, or substances; it can point the way to true Te. True Te is more fundamental, and only comes with enlightenment and Wu Wei or manifests itself in those things which never lost their original nature.

Don't know about virtue, but I have had fleeting moments of Te. I also once lived with a dog and a cat who seemed to possess Te.

Did anyone notice that the zipfile archives of the first 13500 messges are gone as well? So how much is 10 years worth of posts in internet time? I doubt we'll get any of the archives back. Anyone ever bother to save copies of any posts on their computers? I'm curious to see how much can be reconstructed. The wiki is in interesting waters now, though. It's like one of those ancient Chinese texts that takes quotes from all these works that no longer exist, leaving people to puzzle out their contexts.

It's been a few years, let's give the post a bump up and see if anyone still around can help. Edit: For those wondering about what the hell i'm talking about. A bit of backstory: Back in the ancient mists of time (also known as the 1990s to some), there existed a board, a poorly-moderated Taoist board with a crappy search function, that dealt with sexual alchemy in the West. It was known as the Healing Tao forum. Being one of the few boards of its kind at the time, it attracted the best/brightest/most stoned/creepiest from all corners of the land of Internet. In the process of their studies they spewed a truly enormous amount of text into the world, mostly worthless crap, in which were hidden several gems of priceless value. Later on. the owner of the board and his minion webmaster, who had been deep in slumber for the millenia (or perhaps off selling instructional seminars in the distant land of "Real World") awoke, and discovered the tone and content of his ancient board were not to his liking, having drifted strictly from the Healing Tao, as well as becoming quite absurdist and mysoginistic, due to the shining light of some of its fucked-up-but-brilliant star posters. Stricter moderation was enforced, and a schism ensued, leading to the birth of this board. (The leading edge of crazies schismed again into TaoBum.com, and were lost in the sands.) A wiki was started by sifu Pietro, in an attempt to categorize the massive ball of crap that had been formed over the years over at HT, and perhaps mine the jewels from its depths and bring them to the surface. Next, disaster. A hack of the ancient board, or perhaps a computer failure (my knowledge of details is fuzzy) caused a collapse and destruction of the archives. Almost everything was lost, and the board was started anew, new messages re-writing on the archived copies of what little was left. The wiki fell soon after. I, being the self-centered, egoistic, and extremely forgetful person I was/am, was in the habit at the time of saving copies of posts that seemed helpful to me, or that I had written myself (such that I could marvel in the awesomeness of things that I had said ), and had a decent bunkered stockpile of crap. However, a couple years ago, a hard drive failure destroyed my copies, and a misplaced something-or-other scratched the backup CD. So I figured I'd see if anyone else still had any posts floating around somewhere.

To be honest, I don't really understand how it happened for me. I read different translations of the stuff by Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu, and the tales of the Seven Immortals and other bizzare Taoist folklore. I studied impractical hobbies that used Daoist principles to do fun things, like Chinese medicine and sexual yoga. I did simple meditations I stole out of the back of a Zen book, usually when I was depressed, or sometimes accidentally while out for a long walk. I never did drugs, but I quit listening to music, and bought a windchime. I argued with folks on the Healing Tao forums back in the day when they were more belligerent, and developed a dire hatred of those damned stoner-logic braindead never had a critical thought it their lives fucking hippie types. I had weird dreams about sitting in a 24-hour diner talking to a Chinese guy wearing monk robes. I became an ardent follower of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood on PBS. Later I became an alcoholic. Damned if I know. To be honest, I think the big trick is/was just in doing my best not to be afraid to look at things with my heart as well as my mind, getting the two working together instead of against one another. Doing my best to give up on things without giving up on myself. I don't really have a good way of describing it. :/ As for the Tao Te Ching, online study versions that have multiple translations all in one place can be helpful for clearing up language problems. If it's a concept problem, don't worry about it. I've found the TTC is designed in such a way that it makes it hard to understand the things you don't NEED to understand, which is a good thing. Being told about the Tao causes far more problems than its worth unless you're situation is desperate. Uh, so welcome, and good luck.

Is English a second language for Dr. Chang or Dr. Lu maybe? I've found unfortunately that many dietary guides that deal with Chinese medical concepts get fuzzied up in translation. I think maybe the phrase they were looking for in regards to herbs wasn't "increase energy" but maybe "transform energy"? Hot-dry herbs like ginseng don't really increase the net store of energy one has (it's the thick bland foods like cooked root vegetables that do that), they release jing into qi, and boosting qi levels usually makes one feel more energetic. But it's kind of like how in a car, stepping on the gas doesn't give you more gas. Using those type of herbs make one feel more energetic, but they don't give a person more energy.

C'mon now, gotta remember Tao Bums' roots. Tao Bums was an offshoot originally of the Healing Tao forums, which were/are indeed very much about the physical side of Daoist culture. In particular, (if I understood the whole affair correctly) it was people who were annoyed about being censored when they decided to demonstrate the Dao in ridiculous and offensive ways. I'd figure a good old-fashioned "How might I extend my wang such that it will span the circumference of the earth?" question would bring waves of nostalgia.

Buddhism and Taoism are two solutions to roughly the same problem. They share common ground when it comes to outlining what's going on, but diverge when it comes to the question of what to do about it. If the problem were described as a hurricane, Buddhists would head for the periphery, Taoists would head for the eye. Immortality practices are not really Taoism, they are simply a popular part of Taoist culture that illustrate understanding of certain principles. I liken it to the difference between Judaism and Jewish culture, if that makes sense. The goal of Taoism is not immortality, it's grasping Te and through it Wu Wei. Immortality practices are just something fun in the meantime.

Cured tobacco is hot and acrid, if i remember correctly.

Plato once outlined the situation with forums very nicely. I liked his explanation so much I saved it, and refer to it often. I also put it in the quote thread. People like the act of teaching. You can see this especially in children. Children love to teach other children. It gives them strength in the face of what they don't know to try to teach others the things that they do know. This can easily become perverted, however, when a person cannot acknowledge their own weaknesses. In this case, instruction becomes a shield that wards off shame, and the act of instruction becomes more important than the instruction itself. However, this is not a thing that others can change through exposing fraudulent instructors; It is a thing each person must change for themself inside. Some have succeeded, and can offer genuine teaching. Others not so much, but their knowledge may still be valuable. Whether or not the value is worth the price is ultimately your own decision.

http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/index.html

Plato is a master.

Nice picture. I used an anology like that once before when trying to explain the difference between Daoist and Buddhist enlightenment. Daoist enlightenment would be the void in the center, and Buddhist enlightenment the void around the perimeter. The picture I used has a reversed spectrum though. Daoism is a pretty gross path to enlightenment, what with the drunkards and assholes and immortals and all.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record, here. But I guess that just means I should elaborate, instead of putting "immortality is immortality and enlightenment is enlightenment" in big bold capital letters. So here's elaborating. Immortality is immortality. Really to honest goodness seriously. The big reasons people get stuck about this is because more than likely their teachers aren't immortal, which tends to disconcert people, and they're also familiar with the fact that Taoism is surrounded by layer upon layer of bullshit mysticism (some for good reasons, some for bad) so the first impulse is to not take a thing at its face value. The reason that the teachers aren't immortal is because unless they come from an unbroken lineage, there's a good chance they don't know the whole formula or the important details yet. Take the Mantak Chia/Michael Winn/Eric Yudelove/Other-People-in-the-Circle school. They focus on creating Heavenly Immortals. They've got the general ideas down. (Jing to qi, qi to shen, shen to um... immortal spirit body??) but they aren't quite 100 percent clear on the details on how to make this happen when complications arise, and they don't address what to do with the immortal foetus once it's formed whatsoever (important things such as feeding it once it has no body to mooch off of, for instance). Most of the material is there, it just hasn't been put together yet so things are still up in the air. (I'd be interested in seeing if doing bone packing through the spirit body might be a step in the right direction, but I don't do Heavenly Immortal practices, myself. ) Also, the teachers have th same problem as the students, they confuse the different styles of immortality practice, so they end up going in circles a bunch, and they confuse enlightenment and immortality qi gong and sorcery all into this undifferenciated mass in general, which exaggerates the problem. Enlightenment is enlightenment. A few things tend to sucker people here. One is that they strive for higher enlightenment generally even when they don't need it. But that's like taking insulin when you aren't diabetic or going on really strong painkillers when really all you needed was an aspirin. The reason that both Buddhist and Daoist enlightenment practices are structured like they are is to prevent overdoses. Too much enlightenment can fuck up a person if they don't need it. And since they keep on running into dead ends, they start to think maybe enlightenment is another one of those Daoist mind games, and that it actually means "break boards with your penis". The other is that they confuse Buddhist and Daoist enlightenment practices, and generally get sucked up into Buddhism. Not a problem or anything, but it tends to confuse others. Buddhist enlightenment and Daoist enlightenment are two different solutions to the exact same problem. (And also entirely different than immortality practices. ) To use a crappy anology, to a man drowning in the ocean, Buddhism is land, and Daoism is a boat.

You might try at the healingtao forums. Huang Yuanji is a respectable name after all.

Cockroaches never seem to want to stay dead either. A few more ingredients, and we'll have a stir-fry.

If you want to practice tonglen, you can get the same effect without side effects by practicing it externally. Take up a hobby of producing things that you enjoy and that take a lot of effort to make, such as model airplanes, woven baskets, tasty food, etc. Make sure that they are just right, and that you are deeply satisfied with them. It is best if you put a part of your self in their creation, and value them as you value yourself. Then after putting all that work and effort into them, destroy them. Step on the airplane, dump the food in the garbage uneaten. Sometimes this can be more effective if if you have a friend destroy your things, especially unexpectedly while you witness it. This way you don't create them with the ideas of them being sacrifices, and their loss has a more intense effect.

Jiefangjing by Rogerszi

For me, finding the Dao was the problem; Daoism was the solution.

There's a bit of trickiness because shen means 3 things. the heart shen (ie "you") a density of energy (as in jing, qi, shen) and a generalized term for any configuration that plays those roles (this is why hun and po, yi and zhi are called shen, although it isn't entirely the right word, kind of like how soul and spirit aren't exact synonyms in english). The hun and po interact to produce the heart shen, which is what one can think of as being one's "self"; the "I" that one is talking about when one says "I think therefor I am". You are basically a "conversation" between the hun and po. When the conversation ends and the hun and po go their seperate ways, you die. The hun and po may start new conversations with other hun and po, or even conceivably with the same ones that created you, but they will be different conversations, different shen. This produces a sort of reincarnation theory, but without the optimistic twist that maybe you'll get to live forever in one form or another. The hun and po act differently whether they are inside a body together producing a shen, or whether they are seperated and doing their own thing. When they aren't in a body, the hun prefer the heavens and the po prefer the earth. Po often linger around decomposing corpses, while hun are often attracted by incense. The hun are often viewed more favorably than the po. Exorcists are sent to drive po away from corpses, while hun are often welcomed such as during ancestor worshop rituals. Neither are exactly sentient, but they don't seem to be exactly inanimate either; it's not quite clear what they are. The po supposedly are attracted to the body via the buildup of sexual energy that occurs during sex, while the hun are supposedly gathered when the baby takes his first breath. What effect having one po or hun instead of another has on a person's individuality isn't quite clear, although the number of hun and po that make up the "conversation" appear to determine the sentience of the created heart shen. This is why it is traditionally thought that humans have 3 hun instead of 2, and why most other animals have 2 hun instead of 3, and why most plants have only 1 hun.

"Whenever I would rest I grasp a cup of wine, Oblivious of all else in this great capital. So vast are Heaven and Earth that I remain unknown, An old man wandering by himself among mankind." -- Chung-li Ch'uan "None have lived longer than a stillborn child, And old Peng Tsu died young. Heaven and Earth are as old as I am, And the ten thousand things are one." -- Chuang Tsu "You know, if you watch the cyclic energy behind the attacks on this board, you will see the same cool pattern: It starts with those who have nothing to say. They will author posts like this: 'Does anyone know how to maximize yin/yang energy?' 'Isn't it cool how I felt this light when I did my microcosmic orbit.' 'My meditation and their influence upon the population in Harlem, New York.' Clearly these people have much deeper things the wish to ask, but haven't spent enough time walking the talk to even know what they are, let alone phrase them. So, they half-ass it around looking to start on-line relationships with other numb-nutz who have less experience than they do. On the other hand... We have those who have gotten a little deeper and see how the problem is in all of that watery, desire-based stuff. They KNOW what the question is, but don't have the courage to say it. The question is: 'PLEASE HELP ME WITH THIS FUCKING MESS!!!' Since nobody helps them, they spit all their deep shit on the board, which usually takes the form of ass-fucking, racism, etc. Then again... There is still a final category of idiot. I am talking about those who THINK they know everything and drone on and on about some obfuscatory practice where on mixes the yin and the yang of some far off person and produces an inverted, upside-down steaming practice in outer space while riding a bicycle or whatever the fuck is the latest rage among IT professionals who also happen to be Taoists. So the solution is: IT professionals have got to get out of their heads and start doing some serious butt-fucking. The ass-fuckers have got to do some steaming (no dead squirrels involved!). The idiots have got to spend a little more time listening instead of talking. Oh, and by the way: FUCK YOU ALL YOU STINKING CUNT MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!" -- Plato