Walker

Lol, it starts off with a statue of Confucius. Nothing like a video made with the guiding principle of, "well, any old oriental with a beard will do, hmm, howzabout Ho Chi Minh or Chang Dai-Chien, those were some sagely looking Chinamen. Ah, fuck it, let's just go with this statue of a guy with a beard, I"m pretty sure statues look even more ancient than black-and-white photos." The rest of it is like somebody ran The Power of Now and 365 Tao through a paper shredder, boiled the remnants into a sediment mixed with baking soda, cocaine, and sex dust, and then smoked the resulting rocks while playing with iMovie for the first time. The Daodejing definitely doesn't say "living in the moment brings you a sense of reverence for all of life's blessings." However, the creator's other videos, like "How To Start an Online Business Top Must Do's of an Online Business #1," seem much more interesting. Can't wait for #2...

Zhuangzi, mind you, would probably circle back on his crane and make that special Daoist crane-whisperer noise they make in its ear to have it poop on your head. At least, I think that's crane poop. Never mind, like Zhuangzi said, the Dao is even in piss and shit, just consider it a heavenly blessing and take it home and give it a prominent place on your altar and success is most assuredly assured

Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with it. That's cool, though.

After more than a decade of them, this was my first time participating in a thread on this topic. With some persistence, creativity, and personal abasement, I managed to ascertain from MegaMind that Jim McMillan and Kosta Danaos, the sources of the instructions that he follows, were not (so far as he knows) formally initiated into the Indonesian Mopai, and therefore none of McMillan's and Danaos' students received formal induction into the living Mopai lineage. I actually think this is important information to have out there. It tells prospective students that there is almost certainly no link between what they can get in English that is labelled as "Mopai" and the actual "pai" (lineage/sect) that uses the name of Moh-Tzu in Indonesia. To those prone to believing in such things, it also raises the question of whether or not the spiritual guardians of this lineage would approve of the teaching that is going on on the English-speaking internet, and the spiritual/karmic consequences that could come about from this. Finally, it makes it extremely clear that when (not if--no practice is without pitfalls and dangers) problems arise, the English-speakers who use the name of "Mopai" really and truly are incapable of seeking out their would-be elders in the lineage for instruction in order to learn how to solve these problems. In all honesty, I tip my hat to MegaMind for finally putting this information into the public sphere. As for whether or not the behavior in this thread--my own included--shows anything even remotely approaching the Noble Eight-fold Path, well, I will not defend it. I am sure kleshas were on display from a great many people, me no less than anybody else. And yet, I think there is a certain honesty in this. People showed their "true colors," which I'd rather see than any contrived veneer of civility, behind which who knows what lurks. So often what lurks beneath "good behavior" is so much uglier than foul language and name calling that I'm prone to say that I'd take the latter any day. Is lots of the behavior in this thread shameful, from a certain standpoint? I won't say it is not. But is it all pointless? I do not believe so. Some important points have been made by a great many people in between the name-calling, mockery, swearing, raw emotion, attachment, vengefulness, and so forth. These important points are that: the so-called English-language "Mopai" practices may be dangerous; the practices are extremely incomplete; the practices are wholly severed from their still-living transmitters (to wit, Chang and Danaos, though it seems there maybe other teachers in the school in Indonesia); they may or may not be different from what is/was taught in Indonesia (although MegaMind stresses that they alter nothing they learned from McMillan and Danaos, and that may well be true). You say that none of this matters beyond a tiny sliver of people, but have you met people with psychosis related to qigong practice? Physical illness related to qigong practice? Years of their life wasted in cults combined with the trauma that comes from this? I have, and it has left me with the strong sense that the more information that is out there about any shadowy group (sorry, MegaMind, but you keep much in the shadows, I think you can agree with that) with a very questionable past, the better. I want it to be public knowledge where the so-called Levels 1-2B come from. Speaking more generally, beyond the scope of what this thread originally centered on (but came to include now that Dawei's appearance has widened the scope), it is a fact that nowadays one finds more cussing, name-calling, and general rowdiness in some threads than used to be seen here. But I don't think it's gotten out of control. Matterofact, as I said a page or two back, I think it's been limited to only a few places. I see a lot of pleasant, focused, informative, deep threads coexisting at the same time. As for where the low-brow behavior has come into play, my personal (and yes, of course, biased) opinion is that there's generally been a point to it all, and a method to the madness. Back in the days of the "mod squad," what with their stern, blue font warnings in officialese (not to mentioned red font fiiinnnaaallll warnings), it was indeed often off limits to call people out, especially if that was done in a way that involved any "playground tactics." A certain culture of politeness was, for lack of a better word, enforced. But my observation--after about a decade of all that--is that a certain type of troll and a certain type of sicko thrives in the polite, policed environment. And the Dao Bums, for a long time, was a platform, soapbox, and playground for a good number of those trolls and sickos who figured out the rules, and played by them. Since the mods got sent back to the peanut gallery half a year ago, I've seen a certain anarchic "immune system" kick into action more than once here, and I've seen a couple of people and groups with long histories of very disturbing behavior get their noses rubbed in their shit in a way that was never possible in the past, because calls for politeness quite often ended up trumping calls for accountability. The anarchic immune system sure does get ugly sometimes, but I study medicine, and I'll tell you, sometimes a bout of explosive diarrhea, vomiting, and delirious feverish ranting is just the ticket for expelling deadly microbes. My current working hypothesis ('cause I'm not sure I'm right about all this) is that we nowadays sometimes see something analogous to all that. Shit, could this thread be handled better? Could the thread with Drew busking for $20 be handled better? Sure, I guess so. Are some of us going too far sometimes? I guess maybe, maybe probably. But from my standpoint, where I look onto the world with admittedly one-sided vision and far-from-total wisdom, what might look like simple bullying here has an element of protecting the vulnerable from self-appointed teachers who can, will, and too often do suck aspiring practitioners into weird, dangerous worlds that are not what they claim to be. If indeed that's what's happening, and we're all not simply sick puppies fighting for the sake of it, then may it continue. Bringing this concern back to this thread: The English-speaking "Mopai," it can now be said without doubt (thanks to MegaMind's eventual admission), is in no, way, shape, or form affiliated with the actual, living, extant Mopai in Indonesia from which they take their name and (controversially) some teachings. Furthermore, the so-called "Mopai" of the English-speaking world was not founded by any individual who was ever, in any formal and traditional manner, made a fully-fledged member of the Indonesian Mopai. This is information I, personally, hope remains easily available for aspirants to take into account before they begin practicing whatever it is that's in those PDFs. Was it extracted at cost to the civility of this board and maybe my own personal integrity? On the real, I dunno. I accept my inability to know, and the possibility that I may pay a heavy karmic cost. I was doing my best, and I know it might not have been good enough. All that said, sometimes you gotta speak up, sometimes you gotta act. I do so plenty "in real life," and sometimes I do so here. That might just mean I'm a pompous megalomaniac who's going to spend a long time dealing with the consequences of my actions. I guess I'll learn whether or not that's the case sooner or later. But, as your own foray into this thread shows, Steve, even when one is laying one's eyes upon something wholly "irrelevant," sometimes one stops and decides to get involved, as pointless as I guess that might be. I don't begrudge you your jumping into the fray to try and set the course of a ship that you seem to think has gone astray. Matterofact, I relate to it. And welcome it. Though I don't wholly agree with it. Good day to ya.

Here we stand at the crossroads of foolishness and greed...

_/\_ Always happy to share Gokhale's book! I really think it's a masterpiece when it comes to understanding what a healthy back might look like. I have been keeping her advice in mind for years whether washing dishes, doing manual labor, practicing martial arts, shaving, sitting to type or meditate, battling Annunaki colonizers while riding on the back of a magical dragon, or bending over to work on a patient on a massage table (this one is really important, since I and many other bodyworkers/acupuncturists have gotten hurt right in the middle of trying to fix other people's backs, thanks to a lack of good instruction about how to stand and bend while working!). When I had questions I was given the stack of coins/saucers analogy for years, while many other teachers didn't even have that to offer, and kinda just vaguely said "sit naturally." I think that the stacked saucers analogy, well, sucks. First of all, who would stack saucers to have several pronounced, natural, necessary curves; who would imagine that a stack of saucers is a good place upon which to balance a huge, heavy ball? Secondly, what about the human body is like a bunch of inanimate ceramic? I think one of Gokhale's contributions is in treating the human body as a human body, taking into account its complexities and the way the "design" of different parts of the body interrelate, especially to and via the spine. The only thing I think the book is lacking is a discussion of qi, the development of which can naturally correct spinal injuries and add a certain type of "strength" that "comes from within," i.e., as one develops qi one may come to feel that when seated in meditation one is almost "suspended" by what can feel like magnetic fields; my experience is that when this starts to happen, one does not feel like one is using one's musculature to sit straight (although, to be certain, the musculature is never not important if you're maintaining any posture other than couch potato), and a sense of effortlessness can arise. That's not a criticism of Gokhale's book, as this is really a whole other can of worms, and not especially relevant to 8 Steps to a Pain-Free Back.

You seem confused. I have added nothing. I am asking a question, which means I am not adding more words at all. Quite to the contrary, by asking a question, I am doing the opposite of "adding words." I am providing a moment of silence, an empty space, and inviting you to speak, giving you the opportunity to represent yourself. With a clear and direct answer to the question (which you have still neglected to provide, hence me still talking to you). To goal is clarify matters, make them less complicated, and resolve this matter. So, I understand and believe that Jim and Kosta were students of John Chang. Clear. Thank you. Again, the subsequent question: I am literally asking whether or not you were formally initiated into the Mopai by anybody who was formally initiated into the Mopai by John Chang and given permission by John Chang to initiate further disciples. Please focus on just this question.

I say this sincerely: We're getting warmer. The crux of my inquiry seems, at long last, to be within sight. I appreciate that. But I am a rigorous fellow, so please humor me as I seek clarity--clarity which will allow me to put this wearying line of questioning to rest. Is what you are saying that there were no formal lineage initiations?

No I'm not! I do not literally believe you think you are in the Chicago Bulls. That is obviously an analogy. I am literally asking whether or not you were formally initiated into the Mopai by anybody who was formally initiated into the Mopai by John Chang and given permission by John Chang to initiate further disciples. Were you or were you not? Yes/No (It is your freedom to duck, dodge, and obfuscate yet again when I ask this simple question. You go right on ahead! You are free to do as you please! But I hasten to remind you that your sneaking game really just makes you and your club look morally and mentally challenged, and it will not make this question go away--until you answer it, it will follow you to page 100, 200, 1000... Up to you, kiddo! Choices! Choices! And... Consequences!)

False. Having been taught how to throw a jump shot by Michael Jordan =/= You were asked to join the Chicago Bulls roster Having a teacher of a teacher who was taught 2 exercises by John Chang =/= You were formally inducted into the Mopai. Simple logic! Logic is important! Dust yourself off and try again, try again!

Realize that you undermine your "defense" every time you fail to answer a simple, basic, fair question and instead: slather this thread with sophistry; deflect with long digressions into non sequiturs ("People can get PhDs online, let's argue about that for pages so I can avoid saying whether or not I was formerly inducted into the lineage I claim to represent"); whine about how you are a victim; lie; copy-and-paste non-answers; et cetera. You are your own worst enemy. You make your club look to be as foolish as people say you are. A bit of honesty and candor is worth a million bucks. No need to buy this forum. Eventually you'll get it. Hopefully before you're old and gray. Be a shame to waste your whole youth on this cult crap. But then again, Millions do. Your choice

Actually, outside of a small number of threads involving obvious trolls and madmen, there has been peace and opportunity for excellent, deep discussion with almost no friction all over the place here. Sorry, don't share your nostalgia for your authority days, Dawei.

Sometimes, I think the answer these masters would give us is a smile, a wink and a gleaming eye, and a "who cares, why not?!"

The 文始真經 is almost certainly no older than the Sui-Tang period, and maybe even as "new" as late Southern Song. It didn't become popular until it was delivered to 尹志平/Yin Zhiping, a disciple of Dragon Gate founder, Qiu Chuji. Yin Zhiping was effectively the patriarch of the Quanzhen movement for a time, so his promotion of the text was very influential, and it was widely studied during the Ming dynasty, which followed the short-lived Yuan dynasty which Yin was alive in. The received 文始真經 is meant to be the work of Yin Xi, who it is said met Laozi at the Han'gu pass and asked him to write the DDJ. In fact the historical Yin Xi, it seems, did write a book, which was listed in imperial bibliographies up through to the Eastern Han dynasty. Unfortunately it disappeared from record for about a millennia. Whoever wrote the 文始真經 was attempting to "fill the shoes" left empty by the disappearance of Yin Xi's actual book. (I actually think the 文始真經 is fantastic, but I am pretty convinced by the argument that it is not Yin Xi's original work; dating it to the Sui-Tang period seems reasonable, though) Regarding the character 經, it is important to note that the early bibliographies that mentioned Yin Xi's book did not use this character, or even 文始. Rather, the original was called 關尹子, which was either Yin Xi's sobriquet or his political post's title (there were political posts that used the character 尹, which was also Yin Xi's surname).

His new strategy amounts to Good job, MegaMind. The line of people wanting to sign up for your cult is now winding around the block. You're gonna need to go to Home Depot and buy some more wire soon.

Fascinating--if you learn more, please share it here!

That may be and you're not the first person I've heard say such a thing, but that doesn't not mean that Zhuangzi was not elevated to the level of immortal by later Daoist religionists and given the posthumous title of zhenren.

Well, that's not really the case. Here is an example of Zhuangzi being referenced in Daoist liturgy: https://www.kanripo.org/text/KR5b0211/055?query=南華真人#055-012a According to a commentary on the Zhuangzi included in a Song-era collection of Daoist texts, Zhuangzi was given the title Nanhua Zhenren during the Tang dynasty. He might have an even longer name used by Daoists in rituals or on display in temples where he is honored, but I'm not sure.

FUCK! You mean I just wasted all this money on plastic surgery getting a smaller Chinese nose when I should have been paying for a huge Greek nose!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!? FUCK!

Lol, another creative new tactic to avoid answering yes or no questions. It's working, Mega, nobody can tell what you're doing! Success is within reach! Keep it up! Yeah! High five! Chicago Bulls!

Given that @MegaMind is 100% capable of delivering simple, straightforward, prompt answers when he is questioned about his Sexuality Weight Domicile Drug use Illustrious career as professor-tutor Toupee Anal wire then we can be 100% sure that any question he refuses to address directly has an answer this lying cult recruiter (waaaah, waaah, we're not a cult, we're all free thinkers, we never charge money, waaaah, waaaah) is afraid to give. Fuck him. This thread is as good as pinned. If it prevents just one kid from joining their cult... Job well done.

Zhuangzi in 道教=南華真人, sometimes just called 南華. There are some temples where he is honored.