Walker

No idea about Chen meeting Huang Yuanji, whose story seems to be shrouded in much mystery and legend. It's not likely that Hu Fuzhen studied with Chen Yingning. Chen passed away in 1969, whereas by his own account Hu Fuzhen didn't even hear that there was such thing as the Daoist Canon until 1980. Hu Fuzhen did have some manner of relationship with Hu Haiya, but it's circumstances make the chances that Fuzhen received some sort of "full transmission" from Haiya most unlikely.

Has anybody heard of this fellow? He is currently overseeing construction of a new Daoist academy at Tiantai Mountain in Zhejiang Province. An acquaintance of mine recently published an article on him in which it was written that he spent 20 years in the US and has 25,000 students in North America, in addition to several teaching centers. If this is really the case, I'm surprised never to have seen his name mentioned anywhere; very little about him comes up on Google, either. http://www.dao7.net/html/mr/ZhangGaoCheng/

Interesting. But foot binding appeared in the Song era, too, and one can fish around the internet and find numerous counterarguments in under five minutes. In the broad perspective, I'm sure varying levels of freedom were enjoyed by people of different eras, ethnicities, regions, villages, and families with the Song Dynasty, just like there are women in the United States now who enjoy a lot of freedom and power, and some who are slaves. I maintain that speculating about Wang Chongyang's family life and attempting to extrapolate conclusions about his attainments from such is is a fool's errand for cultivators, but hey, people are free to do as they wish.

In 2010 I read a well-researched Chinese book whose contents closely paralleled Eskildsen's. I can't remember the title or author but it was already a few years old then and was published in cooperation with the Harvard-Yenching Institute, so maybe somebody can supply the title. Anyway, in it Wang Chongyang was certainly depicted as a "colorful character" before and after becoming a master and then teacher of Daoism. References were made to his confessed love of drink before meeting Lu Dongbing and Zhongli Quan, his career disappointments, and maybe even what we might today call depression. After becoming a teacher it was recorded that he could be an extremely harsh disciplinarian, employing even corporal punishment. He was so harsh that, as I believe Eskildsen noted, Ma Danyang ran away for awhile. But the important thing is this: the biographical/hagiographical information that the author drew upon came from stone stela in Daoist temples, as well as from Ma Danyang's and Wang's own personal writings. Anybody who considers this information to constitute a "criticism" of Wang Zhongyang would need to explain why Daoists would go to the trouble to erect stone tablets to detail a history of their founders that they considered shameful (or as evidence that Wang or Ma were not actually accomplished). Given that Wang Chongyang is still afforded utmost respect in temples today, then it's extremely unlikely that Wang's foibles before his accomplishment or his many personality quirks afterwards have ever bothered Quanzhen Daoists. I think the general feeling is this: Wang Zhe was a man whose life left him weary of the world and burdened with an existential crisis of sorts. Eventually, due to his accumulated de and his destiny, he had the good fortune of receiving a transmission and being capable of practicing it. After realizing the Dao, he employed rather shocking methods of teaching and behaving in order to educate a small core of students that he was destined to meet and "save." His methods worked and his seven core disciples all achieved themselves. As for Wang's "untimely" death, one explanation you hear is that he wanted to teach his students not to be attached to the body. Of course, such an explanation presupposes that physical immortality is possible and that Wang decided against it and intentionally manifested illness or allowed himself to fall ill, so as to set an example. Perhaps. Then again, maybe not. Consider this exchange between Wang Chongyang and Ma Danyang: 丹陽又問： 何者名為長生不死？ Danyang further asked: what is that which is called 'long alive and not dying?' 祖師答曰： 是這真性不亂， 萬緣不掛， 不去不來， 此是長生不死也。 Replying, Ancestor Teacher said: It is the true xing not [being made] chaotic, [with] no attachment to the myriad karmas, not going and not coming, this is 'long living and not dying.' It is well known that by the time Quanzhen Daoism came along the influence of Chan Buddhism was everywhere in Chinese religion. Is Wang Chongyang saying that what immortality actually refers to is something "original" and "beyond beyond," like so-called Buddha nature? This is a question that is probably worthy of contemplating. As for Chinese marital relationships: the idea that marriage to a twentieth century Chinese woman tells us anything about marriage dynamics in any other era is laughable. We will never know what Wang's family life was really like, but one thing is sure: the Song Dynasty is famously described as a time when the rights of women dropped substantially, supposedly due to influential chauvinist reactionaries who saw the Tang's downfall as in part due to a decadence that included allowing women too much freedom. Thus, the great scholar Zhu Xi (朱熹/朱子) is nowadays just as famous for his writings on the Yijing as he is for his extremely old-fashioned views on women. I've actually seen an old woman with bound feet dragging herself up a staircase by the banister in China, in a subway station in modern Beijing. Surrounded as she was by women of numerous other generations, it was a stark reminder that social mores are in constant and dramatic flux. Was Wang's wife similarly oppressed? Who knows--all we can be certain about is that her worldview was nothing like that of anybody we know living today. Finally, as for the questions of what exactly Wang Chongyang achieved and whether or not he'd have been able to do so in light of the various theories available to us in neidan texts, I can only say that this is a question whose answer is even further from any mere mortal than our wild speculations about Mrs. Wang's temperament. If you went to a Daoist teacher who actually cares about your cultivation to present the thesis that the meditation instructions X book proved that Y immortal actually isn't an immortal, he or she would probably be at a loss as to whether to laugh, cry, or whack you smartly across the face with a shoe like the wise and compassionate Master Wang himself would have! May we all be so lucky as to meet masters who can clearly see our stupidity and rudely smack us out of it at the right moment! I'd take a stinging cheek over another five kalpas in this place...

He wishes to play more games with words. But he fails to see the key word: "Display." Read carefully.

@ Arkady, no need to say thanks, just glad other people can see this silliness and call it what it is. I see Awaken is still here, busily working to distract us with fluffy talk of buying flutes and how many handsome friends she has, while she remains unwilling to answer a few simple questions about Zhang Gaocheng's ideas on Daoism. Hmm. I conclude that she in fact never had much of a conversation with Master Zhang, at least not one that pertained to Wu-Liu teachings. By the way, people, the notion that one could go to live in or visit a Daoist temple in China and never see anger is total fantasy. I've personally witnessed wise, respected, typically soft-spoken, and *famously compassionate* Daoist masters display the full range of rage and wrath. I've seen people who got out of line be excoriated with volume and vigor plenty of times. Supposedly in its heyday Wudang had a prison for wayward monks. White Cloud Monastery monks immolated one who was corrupt and colluded with Japanese occupying forces. There has always been rebuke, including wrathful rebuke, in this tradition. In Daoism one is not required to eat a sandwich full of bullshit and then thank the chef. One can waltz into a message board and get away with being full of it, so long as one dresses one's insults up in pseudo politeness and a facetious passive aggressive veneer. That doesn't work in traditional Daoist circles, which are happy to reject and eject. 非其人不授.

In Chinese slang there is a kind of tactic in discussion or debate called 玩太極, or "playing taiji," which is a reference to pushing hands. It means that when a person gets pinned down with a specific question that he or she can't or won't answer, the person then deflects the conversation elsewhere, to push the flow of discussion away from that which it would be inconvenient to face head on. Accusing the questioner of being impolite or making the person receiving the question lose face is a very common trick in conversational 太極. This is generally a perfect escape hatch to use in Chinese culture, because it makes the questioner into the bad guy, and puts the onus on him or her not only to stop asking questions, but also to apologize and try to smooth things over, because in a "face" culture, it is actually often considered worse to point out another person's contradictions (even egregious ones), than it is to contradict oneself (even egregiously). Thus, "I don't have to talk to you because you are not friendly" is a trump card that usually works. My questions about Awaken's conversation with Zhang Gaocheng are simple and worded with ample decorum. They could have been answered with fewer words than she used to explain why she won't answer them. Classic 玩太極了.

Dear Awaken, Thank you for beginning to share your story about meeting Zhang Gaocheng. Please tell us more detail. Please tell us exactly what comments you made about the Wu-Liu Xianzong and the Wu-Liu methods when you were there. Also, please tell us exactly what Master Zhang said to you in reply. The details are important to help people understand the nature of your argument, as well as Zhang Gaocheng's response. Finally, why do you think that Zhang Gaocheng said that the Wu-Liu Xianzong is "其实精到?" Do you think he was lying? Or joking? Or wrong? Thank you.

One "method": there is a term, 忍辱, "enduring humiliation," that shows up often in Daoism. Partly it erodes our pride, partly it builds our de, and apparently, partly it also "eliminates" karmic burden. It is illustrated famously in the story where Ma Danyang, once a wealthy lord, is forced by his master Wang Chongyang to return to his old village dressed in rags and beg for alms. On this "method," from the 《乐育堂语录》: 且生自入道来，屡遭磨励，历受风波。 Yet, beginning with your entry into Daoism, you will time and again be scraped across the grindstone, passing through wind and waves. 在旁观看来，学道人还不荷天之庥，反遭许多惊恐。 In the eyes of onlookers, people who study Dao do not carry heaven’s protection, and instead encounter numerous terrors. 殊不知遭一番谗谤，即进一分道德，经一番磨炼，即长一分精神，且也夙根习气为之一消，前冤后孽由此一除。 Little do they know that to suffer a round of slander and criticism is to advance by a fraction in Dao and de; that to pass through a round of tempering is to grow by a fraction in jing and shen. Even more, bad habits rooted in former lives are eliminated by this; prior sins and coming retributions are mended by this. 此正如人之染污泥，经一番洗涤，而身躯爽泰矣；又如金玉藏于石中，经一番煅炼，而光华始出矣。 It is just like a person soiled by filthy sludge, being once cleansed; and like jade or gold hidden within stone, going once through the forge, and then starting to shine. 此福慧双臻之道，不在于安常处顺，而在于历险经艰。 This Dao of attaining both felicity and wisdom is not [found] in settling into a smooth and steady life. Rather, it is in passing through perils and experiencing hardships.

Awaken: I see, thank you. Firstly, I am not Russian. I have never knowingly met a single Wu-Liu practitioner, and I do not practice any Wu-Liu teachings. I have simply read the Wu-Liu texts. I have also seen that there is much respect for the 《伍柳仙踪》/Wu-Liu Xianzong in China. For example, I know a 龙门派 temple abbot very well who only practices "无为大道." This person respects the Wu-Liu Xianzong. Secondly, thank you for beginning to share your story about meeting Zhang Gaocheng. Please tell us more detail. Please tell us exactly what comments you made about the Wu-Liu Xianzong and the Wu-Liu methods when you were there. Also, please tell us exactly what Master Zhang said to you in reply. The details are important to help people understand the nature of your argument, as well as Zhang Gaocheng's response. Finally, why do you think that Zhang Gaocheng said that the Wu-Liu Xianzong is "其实精到?" Do you think he was lying? Or joking? Or wrong? Thank you. ----------------------- There is no easy way to render 道长 in English. Sometimes people write Daoist priest, sometimes people write Daoist monk or Daoist nun, and sometimes people write Daoist.

Arkady saw it as plainly as day. All that you have provided us with your 2000th cry for attention is insight into the pathetic Faustian bargain you use to justify your online fantasy role play as a Daoist master. You are so obsessed with defaming the Daode Centre that you mince and slobber after Awaken's every word, intoxicated by your primitive logic, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." But then even you can see that there is a problem here: you claim to have accomplished neidan, and you base that claim on your supposed ability to understand the Huimingjing. Yet Awaken tells us day in and day out that the Huimingjing is a useless, preposterous text, written by a Daoist with no accomplishment. However, you are desperate for camaraderie in your internet hobby, so you nevertheless latch onto the figure whose primary message includes this massively inconvenient point: even though she might not like the Daode Center, she's certain that your accomplishment is full of shit, too. Thus we get the above hackneyed, hairsplitting attempts at reinterpreting simple words, so that you can try to have your cake and eat it, too. It becomes clear that the lonely man with a penchant for prevarication and confabulation--as well as a mouse and a keyboard and enough unstructured time to be able to sit and watch this site like a hawk--makes his thousands of unconvincing posts to convince himself; to shore up the crumbling walls of his fantasy world. As long as he believes what he writes, and as long as he's desperate to derive meaning in life from this endless online charade, then he'll always be right. And he'll always be here. Because this is the internet, where there are few consequences for hypocrisy, and where attention and a little dopamine fix come very, very cheaply. Good for you, TT, good for you. Now go, go quickly, I'm sure Awaken needs her one-man pom pom squad somewhere. Leap and prance and entertain yourself. Good job, good job. Oh, but wait, before you leave, make sure to send me some winky emoticons and attempt get the last word! Quick, the last word, get it dear boy, get it! Ah, perfect, yes, we believe you, we believe you. We just wonder if you really believe yourself.

Yet more reason to be cautious of Awaken. Earlier, in this post, when Awaken was attacking the Wu-Liu founders, texts, and current students, I posted the following sentence: ”二十三、丹经书籍众多，南五祖俱有书所言皆妙而切当，刘一明，黄元吉等人的书直言淋漓，不妨多读。伍柳仙踪其实精到，无眼力者看不明白，其余丹家都是大力真做之人，不善于下功夫的无法体悟其中妙趣。“ The Chinese roughly means: ”23: The alchemical classics are extremely numerous. The five patriarchs of the south [i.e., Southern Quanzhen] all have books that are all marvelous and well-worded. Liu Yiming's and Huangji's books state things bluntly and in great detail, so there is no harm in reading lots of them. The Wu-Liu Xianzong is factual, precise, and penetrating. Those without [knowledge/discernment/judgement] read without understanding it. The remaining alchemical classics are all by mighty true practitioners. Those who are not good at [putting time and energy into actual practice] have no way to comprehend the marvels within. “ To the above sentence Awaken swiftly replied: "有眼力的實修者方知伍柳之荒謬." Meaning: "Only real cultivators with [knowledge/discernment/judgement] know that Wu-Liu is [preposterous/absurd/bullshit]." The problem is that the quote I posted is attributed to none other than Zhang Gaocheng. It is number 23 on a list called, "张高澄道长对南宗祖庭弟子的要求," or, "Daoist Zhang Gaocheng's requirements for Disciples of the Southern School's Ancestral Hall." The list can be viewed here. Zhang Gaocheng himself is named as the author of this list. To summarize this glaring conflict: Awaken has devoted much time an energy to claiming that the original Wu-Liu texts (collectively referred to above as Wuliu Xianzong) are so full of mistakes as to be useless; she has insisted that Wu Chongxu and Liu Huayang were not realized practitioners; and she has attacked current inheritors of Wu-Liu teachings, not only because she thinks their teachings are wrong, but also because they take money. And yet, Here Awaken is trying to raise money for a monastery whose abbot has published the statement that those who do not understand the Wuliu Xianzong lack judgement/discernment/knowledge (眼力, literally "eye strength" in Chinese). I don't see how a person who has publicly declared her mission to stop the Wu-Liu school from "cheating" people out of money and time can then turn around try to help raise money for man who has published his high opinion of what she calls "absurd/preposterous/bullshit" (荒谬) teachings. ---------------------- Awaken: I highly encourage you to make your visit to 桐柏宫 on Mount Tiantai this summer. I beg you to please do everything you can to secure a face-to-face meeting with Zhang Gaocheng while you are there. I furthermore beg you to show him the exact quote above (第二十三条) and ask him: (i) Did he write that (ii) Did he really mean it (iii) What he thinks of your opinions about the 伍冲虚, 柳华阳, 《伍柳仙踪》, and current Wu-Liu masters and schools Finally, I ask that following your visit to Mount Tiantai this summer that you please return to this thread and give us a thorough report on your conversation with Abbot Zhang. Thank you.

二十三、丹经书籍众多，南五祖俱有书所言皆妙而切当，刘一明，黄元吉等人的书直言淋漓，不妨多读。伍柳仙踪其实精到，无眼力者看不明白，其余丹家都是大力真做之人，不善于下功夫的无法体悟其中妙趣。 ______________ @Arkady: Thanks for your cordial response... I'm sure that your replies will be of interest to plenty of people here. The ones who may pay the most attention might be the least vocal, however.

Ah, the copy-paste mortar attack. A well-worn strategy in online wars of attrition. Let's take a closer look, then, since we're here... The first pasting above contains a fairly interesting look at the way in which the different relationships between students and teachers are described in a few Wu-Liu texts, in order to try and show that Liu didn't study with Wu, and also suggest that the two of them never formally established a lineage. It's a fairly interesting take which I can't offer an opinion on, because I don't know enough about this history nor how much we can or can't infer from naming conventions in texts. What is interesting to me is this: in that post the original author repeatedly and assiduously refers to Wu and Liu both as "realized persons" (zhenren/真人), which is a term of address reserved for highly accomplished Daoist masters. Leaving aside questions of lineal transmission of teachings in ancient times, what we see is that the author of Awaken's paste still sees Wu and Liu as high level Daoist masters. Thus, the post that Awaken uses to make one point (there is no Wu-Liu Pai) directly undermines her main point elsewhere (that Wu and Liu didn't cultivate "real" neidan). The second pasting presents a similar problem. It is just an opinion piece stating that Wu, and especially Liu, didn't know Buddhism very well. Not only does its author fail to explain why, but more importantly, he or she also makes a statement that is entirely at-odds with Awaken. Namely, the author says that "the alchemical methods of Wu-Liu have wise/brilliant/superior parts, but in the area of Buddhism Wu and Liu's level was not high." Note that here Awaken here seems to wilfully ignore the word "高明" (wise/brilliant/superior) in her translation, turning it instead into the significantly muted "has advantages." Since Awaken has said she doesn't always understand English, I will ask her to address these glaring discrepancies in logic in Chinese. Awaken，我想請問一下兩個問題。 １。在你剛才發的第一個帖子裡面，作者一直把伍衝虛和柳華陽稱為『真人』。既然你選擇引用這個人的話，那，你應該是認可他的觀點，對吧？那，你是不是也認為伍衝虛和柳華陽是真人？ ２。在第二個帖子裡面，作者說『伍柳的丹法有高明之處』。你是否認可這個觀點？ 謝。

Well, China is a huge country, with all sorts of weird people doing all sorts of weird shit. Taking the behaviors of a fringe group and using them to attack others who bear the same name without doing one's due diligence is irresponsible, just like using the atrocities of the bloody Taiping Revolution (which was led by a Chinese man who said he was the second coming of Christ) to make statements about Christianity at large would be. Anybody who has years on the ground in Chinese Daoism can tell you that the variety of practices and ideas coming from people who rightly or wrongly claim to be Longmen Daoists, for instance, is nigh on infinite. If I were to use the "teachings" of one temple abbot who barbeques fish and drinks himself silly with lay visitors in the main courtyard of his temple in the middle of the day to condemn _all_ Longmen monks, that would be intellectually lazy, irresponsible, and dishonest, right? Awaken is so convicted that she has proven ready to drag on and on no matter how much contradictory evidence is posted. I don't even believe she tries to or necessarily is even able to read the counterpoints provided to her by people who are affiliated with the Dao De Center, as well as others with zero vested interest in the Dao De Center who have noted her over-the-top hypocrisy. This is both mad and maddening. I showed Teacher of Single Yang's book to a lifelong Daoism researcher in Beijing a year or more ago. He immediately recognized it and immediately praised the author. Yesterday I spoke extremely briefly about Daoism research with a fairly-renowned professor who is initiated into a southern Quanzhen lineage, and the Wu-Liu school came up without him needing to say, "oh, but they're all fake." Do these anecdotes prove anything? Of course not. However, they add to the pile of abundant evidence that the Wu-Liu teachings are at the very, very least taken seriously in China by people who have devoted their lives to this field of research and practice. We've all heard Awaken's point. She refuses to hear out anybody else. At a certain point, I start to catch wafts of that under-the-bridge smell, knamean?

When is she going to drop it? She's fighting against a straw man of her own creation. Anybody who reads carefully here will note that she accused the Wu-Liu Pai of being wrong because supposedly they gather large groups people into seated meditation-based practices (to make money, she claims). Yet Opendao has been stressing for years now that that is pretty much the opposite of how they practice. Clearly she either has a vendetta, or is merely too obsessed with her imagined "enemy" to bother with facts and logic. If this is what "awake" looks like, I'd prefer to swallow a bottle of Ambien. Just because she puts on a practiced patina of politeness doesn't make her behavior civilized.

Creepy.

I'm crying here. This person compliments a Buddhist-cum-Daoist who is recorded in history as being a student of Liu Huayang. Says that this person is "amazing," "right," and beyond her level. Yettttttttttttttttttttttttttt, at the same time, she insists that the entire Wu-Liu school is and always has been wrong and fake. She insists that the Huimingjing, which Liu Huayang wrote, is all wrong. Asked if she sees the contradiction, she answers, "there is no contradiction." Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. One doesn't need to be a Wu-Liu student to see that this is ridiculous... right? Right? This is like I'm talking to somebody railing about Christianity, and she tells me, "but have you ever read this book called the Gospel of Paul? It's fucking amazing, it's the best book ever!" "But you understand that Paul was a disciple of Jesus, right? That makes him a Christian." "Oh, yes, yes, I know, that's what I mean, what I have been saying but the corrupt media keeps distorting my words, you see, Christianity is all wrong, Jesus really ought to have been locked up, but have you heard of this Paul guy? Amazing, really beautiful words, Paul, I think we're going to do really big and great things by cultivating together. Paul and I had a lovely phone call last night and, it was just big, the ideas he shared with me. Huge. We're going to make religion great again, and I'm pretty sure that everybody is going to love it." I'm getting ready to give away my record collection and my Ferrari* and just move to the mountains. Clearly Taomeow has been right all these years: airplane vapor trails really are chemtrails. The whole world has been sprayed down with some goop that makes everybody think like Donald Trump. Fuck it, somebody just let me take a toke off the back of a jet engine, so I can get this suffering over with. Since I'm in a chatty mood: Man, Opendao, regardless of who is right or wrong, you should really consider honeying your words a bit. Believe me, I agree with you, Taoist Texts is a troll and frankly speaking an obsessive stalker who seems to feed off of getting under your skin. Dude acts like an asshole, and when he pisses you off, you do, too. You're never gonna win till you stop letting him actually get under your skin. By taking your time to go tit-for-tat with a man-child as though he were a grown man, you elevate his status and lower yours, all the while giving him the stimulation he feeds off of. The guy obviously loves it, otherwise he wouldn't have spent years trying to rub up against you for little thrills! The angrier you seem to be, the happier he gets; you get grumpier, and other people here just unite against you, because they don't like your attitude. This fight is never going to end till you figure out how to "give the [troll] no place to sink its claws." I don't think he'll ever go away, so sooner or later you're just gonna have to learn to ignore him, just like most temples in China give up and stop trying to get rid of the deranged "masters" who camp out in front of big temples. Also, responding solely in the negative when other people offer evidence (and regardless of whether or not you agree with him, Effi deserves credit for painstakingly spelling out his schools' ideas) doesn't do much to convince anybody who isn't already reading the books you read. When you disagree with people, can you a detailed counterpoint, including some information about its textual background and/or the things you have witnessed in your life? Doing so will add depth to these discussions, help other people learn how to consult Daoist books, and increase the general level of harmony on this board. Which is sorely lacking. An example: just above you write, "Yangshen is not a subtle body, and it breaks apart all the long philosophy and argumentation." You've disagreed with Effi, but instead of deepening this discussion, frankly speaking, you're basically saying, "fuck you." You might not mean to be that rude, but I'm pretty sure that that's how people interpret your reactions, and thanks to that, you get into more arguments than debates. How could this go differently? Well, my understanding, which comes from reading Daoists texts including but not limited to the Wu-Liu school, is that what you mean by "yangshen is not a subtle body" is that the achievement of yangshen is marked by being able to manifest a totally physical, substantial body, i.e., something that is not subtle at all. This leads me to some questions: -Is my understanding correct? -If I'm not correct, can you please tell me where I am wrong, and also let me know which book and chapter I should consult to learn more about this issue? -In your opinion, are there specific signs of this type of accomplishment that students should look for and expect to see when they are assessing teachers? -From your standpoint, what is specifically disadvantageous to a person who gets the kind of results that Effi describes?

Problem is most of us get altitude sickness before we're 1/4 of the way up the mountain and just start building little temples in which to jibber away about the glories of the summit while we're still deep in the cloud layer...

Uh-huh, and Liaokong's teacher wrote the Huimingjing/慧命經! 你一方面說慧命經充斥了謬誤，也說伍柳派全是自欺欺人，可是另一方面你還說伍柳派的繼承人了空法師論的都是正法。你還不覺得你講話有點太矛盾了嗎？勸君細想之。

Okaaaaayyyy, since we have a new proselytizing savior here, this post really needs to be highlighted. Twice above, in English, Awaken tells us that Zhao Bichen's master Liaokong is right. Actually, not just right, but "amazing" and "beyond her experience." What is the glaring irony here? Awaken calls the Wu-Liu school "mistaken" and "liars," Yet, Liaokong was a recipient and transmitter of Wu-Liu teachings. Once again that permanent hand-shaped bruise on my forehead grows a deeper shade of purple. Maybe this is why Daoist's love this color? For those who care to do their homework, Google translate should suffice with what I'm pasting below: 外释内道的高僧了然、了空二位禅师 了然禅师，道号清禅，于乾隆三十六年（1771）拜柳祖为师，后住镇江金山寺修炼。柳华阳著作中载有《了然五问》，可证其事。 了空禅师，道号清净，北京人，自幼在北京天桥西仁寿寺出家，属禅宗临济派。清嘉庆四年（1799）五月，柳华阳祖师来京住仁寿寺，传丹诀于了空。了空祖师得诀后，出庙云游，至金山寺挂单与了然祖师一同修炼。二祖师后传功于赵避尘。 了然、了空两位祖师虽然没有留下著作传世，但在实修上，都达到了极高的境界。今天我们还能通过赵避尘的《性命法诀明指》中的一些片断，来窥见二位祖师的丹法概况与成就。 If Google translate is not clear enough let me know. Irony much?

Here you've taken a sentence from a part of the Classic of Difficulties/Nanjing that is about understanding pulses that are taken by classical Chinese physicians. It uses five-phase theory to talk about the relationship of the breath to the way the different zang organs' pulses manifest. Choosing this quote presents a number of problems that undermine your argument: 1. It would be a big stretch to say that this passage is trying to describe how we breathe. Again, it's primarily talking about taking a pulse. The commentary in 《难经本义》 explains this passage better than I can, so interested people can just look that up. 2. Secondly, you write, "to breath in till kidney is normal." However, according to this passage, one also breathes into one's liver. Still more, one breathes out of one's heart. Basically, this quote really doesn't offer any information that would support or deny the claims made in neidan text. It also probably be inaccurate to think that the Chinese medicine belief that "the kidneys govern qi absorption" (肾主纳气) can tell us anything conclusive about specific Daoist practices. Wait, this passage says that the place of the breath is in emptiness? I don't think so. Let's look at a rough translation: 凡聖之變化，總是這個所謂一物一太極，The transformation from mortal to sage, is in sum this so-called one thing, one taiji, 有此太極，知覺言語，Having this taiji, [there is] consciousness and language, 無此太極，眼垂口閉，Without this taiji, the eyelids hang and the mouth closes, 醫謂之真火，Doctors call this true fire, 實無形無影，In fact it is without form and without shadow/reflection/trace, 而藏之臍後腎前，稍下空懸一穴。Yet it is hidden/stored behind the navel and before the kidneys, slightly below a cavern is suspended in emptiness. 古謂之淨土家鄉，極樂國，妙有真空。The ancients called this the hometown of the Pure Land, the Nation of Perfect Bliss, the marvelous existence [in] true emptiness. 有此真火蒸薰有形，Having this true fire, [it] steams and fumigates the tangible [corporeal?] 無此真火息斷形壞。Without this true fire, the breath is cut off and the body declines/dies. I won't claim that my translation is perfect, but I don't see anything in there that can be translated as "the place of the breath is in emptiness." The passage you quote certainly isn't talking about the type of "breath" you bring up above with your Nanjing quote, because here we are clearly told that we are talking about something that is "without form and without shadow/reflection/trace." Therefore, the quote you use here fails to support your accusation that the Huimingjing is telling us that "breathe is real fire." Ok, so one more quick translation (I only have ten minutes to do it in, so it ain't gonna be perfect either) 修行人以無形之真火為用，Cultivators make use of the formless true fire, 而外面呼吸有形之火非謂全然不用，and while the external, corporeal breathing is not said to be totally not used, 不過如鐵匠之風扇吹噓於外，it is no more than as though it were a blacksmith's fan blowing upon the exterior 周遭包裹，以衛中間神息而已。all-around enveloping, to protect the shen breath within, and no more. 吾恐諸子未明用火之道，I fear that many students have not understood the dao of using fire, 故將呼吸有形之凡火，and therefore they take he corporeal breath that is mortal fire, 與先天無形之真火，and the prior heaven formless true fire, 相提並論，bringing them up together, and discussing them side-by-side [i.e., confusing the two of them] 以免妄採妄煉。[so I make this distinction] to prevent the false gathering and false refining. Oddly enough, from what I can tell at a glance, if anything Leyutangyulu and Huimingjing seem to be more in agreement than disagreement here. Conclusion: I have no idea who has a real method, and who doesn't. I have no idea if there is even such thing as "immortality" or "dan" or whatever. Don't really care to get upset about it. But I do know what a good, rational argument looks like, though, and this sure ain't one.

Aetherous pretty much hit the nail on the head. There might well have been a doctor somewhere along the lines in Chinese history who took the title of the Lingshu as his sobriquet (or hers, though speaking honestly, women were almost never recorded in the annals of Chinese medicine history, except as patients), which could have confused Yang.

I tip my hat to ya.

Ah, bit of dictionary envy, eh? I suppose a word like "millenarian" is a bit of a mouthful. As any good Daoist would, I suggest you solve your problems by finding a way to get your hands on a nice, big, fat Longman (it ain't every day I get the chance to make a triple entendre!). Sorry, am I not taking your thread seriously enough? Well, obviously neither are you. The idea that you might use your inability to get a website to open in full screen mode as an excuse for perpetuating a misinformation campaign is pathetic. So that you will have no more trouble viewing the relevant information, here's what Effi Lang said on the topic: So, according to Effi, the XYP grandmaster left China well before the Communists came to power and also began teaching publicly before the end of the Cultural Revolution, which finished in 1976. Nobody who's read my posts in the XYP thread would mistake me for a fan of XYP. I have as much and as little reason to believe their fantastical claims as I have to believe yours. But what I am a fan of is not letting patently libelous claptrap go unnoticed. There is an edit function for posts. The irrelevance of your plagiarized lesson behooves you to make use of the edit function and change the misleading name of this topic, which in fact tells us nothing about "Xiao Yao Pai and other arts from China." If you have technical difficulties which prevent you from using the edit function, please ask the mods for help.