Walker

Dawei is 100% right. That this flood of words has nearly nothing to do with the actual teachings on 性命双修 is testament to two things which the genuinely interested are wise to ponder if they are hoping to study Daoism: -ChiDragon, because he has invented his own definitions of 性命双修 on the basis of a few shallow essays on the relevant topic on a site **that is an arm of the PRC government, which does not give a flying fuck about the accuracy of its encyclopedia entries on Daoist teachings and is NOT a Wiki,** instead of devoting his life to studying the oral and/or written tradition of Daoism, was never capable of starting a clear, accurate discourse on this topic. The ancients said, 知其要者一言而终不知其要者流散无穷. Beware 流散无穷. The Daoist teachings are presented succinctly and with clarity by those who understand the vocabulary of Chinese cultivation, which ChiDragon does not. -The latter conversation about naturalness seems to be rooted on the presumption, not very useful to an inner cultivator, that 自然 and the English word "natural" are synonyms with similar implications. A vast amount of verbiage has been devoted to questions fairly irrelevant to 性命双修 by people who are projecting the word "natural" onto the topic of 性命双修, creating a debate that really has nothing to do with this Daoist teaching. No matter how high one's level of realization, if one does not understand another tradition's language and its epistemology, then one can't accurately speak about that tradition. The sea of words is where many seekers will drown themselves; some would rather grab you by your ankle and drag you down, too, than try and learn how to swim before their last drop of yang is gone. It is thus here in China just the same as it is on this page.

I agree with Yamu. No way to know how much the teacher has "in his stomach" unless you go find out. There is some truth to what Vitalii is telling you, but the fact is that the depth of any martial arts teacher's training is impossible to guess just by knowing what his/her style is. One of my teachers has taught martial arts and qigong (or whatever you wanna call it) to whomever has the fate to end up at his proverbial doorstep for decades. These practices were transmitted to him by a master in China who practiced alchemy in private whilst being a famous teacher of martial arts and qigong in public; my teacher recieved martial, energetic, and alchemical training from this master. My teacher's other master was not a martial artist but a Daoist priest and accomplished practitioner of alchemy. Though he has impeccable Daoist "pedigree," my teacher does not advertise his background or even, for that matter, his existence--much of what I know about him I found out over the slow passage of years. You can easily imagine that each of his students learn very different things from him, and many have no idea the depths of his cultivation. I can tell a similar tale about many of my other teachers and my master. So, ultimately, if you want to walk this path, you just gotta jump in and see who's got what up his or her sleeves, and see what your own affinities will call forth. Combining practice, study, and, to borrow a term from medicine, "watchful waiting" for years and years will allow many things to gradually become clear. You may find yourself with one teacher during this whole time, or you may find that this path flings you to the four corners of the globe and back again. No way to know, so ain't nothing to it but to do it. This path in fact has flung me all around the globe and, while I'm as far from enlightenment as ever, has at least allowed me to live firsthand the kind of adventures that usually belong in the pages of pulp fiction. Not only that, but yesterday on the subway a girl who overheard me talking about medicine interrupted to say that she had a headache that felt like being stabbed in the back of the skull, and asked if I could help. I was able to resolve her problem in under a minute using one acupoint. Later in the day I alleviated a toothache in one person and neck pain in others, also in minutes, using only massage and acupressure. Martial arts practice has unquestionably contributed greatly to my study of the healing arts, and it is a great pleasure to be able to be of service, relieving others of their pain. Anyway, I say all that not just to brag, but to encourage you to check it out, because you know where I got my very first taste of the Chinese cultivation traditions,15 years ago, including profound, life-changing experiences with qi? Yessir, Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung-fu.

I do not know Xu Mingtang personally, but I know two of his close, long-term students who are in Beijing. I also have a friend who went on one of their month-long summer retreats at Shaolin and another friend who is a TCM doctor who received some training at Kundawell. There are numerous members of this forum who staunchly insist that Xu Mingtang's teachings are fake, but without question some of his students have developed real healing abilities. I can say this because I have witnessed their work firsthand on myself and on one of my own patients. I also have a friend,a TCM doctor who has learned from many famous and accomplished teachers, who was treated by one of the healers who helped me (she helped both of us for free, by the way), and his experience was very positive. Nevertheless, according to the closest of my aforementioned friends (who has been involved with the system for over a decade), most of the system's powerful techniques are its most simple ones, whereas their more complex qigong is not very useful. Another of my friends who studied at Kundawell, who is a doctor, has pointed out to me that Xu Mingtang's teachings place a lot of emphasis on opening up spiritual abilities without first providing practitioners with a strong foundation in terms of physical and mental health, leading to imbalances of various types amongst practitioners, and the unfortunate realit that many Kundawell students are simply not healthy. Although most of the students at Kundawell apparently do not develop abilities even approaching Xu's, that does not mean that the teachings are fake. As for the rest, I think that NotVoid's post is excellent. It is very hard to know what is real and what is false when talking about lineage in China. However, the notion that something could have been passed down for hundreds or even thousands of years without changing so vastly as to be nearly unrecognizable to its creators is probably unrealistic. Look at baguazhang. It is less than 200 years old and already the differences between styles are so vast as to make it impossible for the proliferation of masters in China and around the world to agree on much of anything. I have encountered the same reality in, for example, the Dragon Gate tradition, which is not yet 1000 years old.

There is much interest on this forum in Daoism as it has been passed down under the umbrella of the Complete Reality tradition, especially by its major branch, the Dragon Gate. Most people here are familiar with the Dao De Jing but may not be aware that when Wang Chongyang founded Complete Reality Daoism, he chose two other pieces of writing to round out the foundation of his school's worldview. One is the Mahayana Buddhist Heart Sutra, and the other is the Confucian Classic of Xiào. Qiu Chuji, founder of the Dragon Gate lineage of Complete Reality Daoism, continued the tradition his master began. There is far more discussion online and in books of the various physical and spiritual cultivation techniques associated with the Dragon Gate lineage than there is of its philosophy. However, studying and embodying the philosophical basis of Complete Reality teachings is of tremendous, indispensible value to the practitioner. Familiarizing oneself with Classic of Xiào is a good way to understand the comportment considered befitting a student of Dao. It is also a way to realize that the commonplace Western notion of Confucianism and Daoism being wholly distinct if not downright opposed ways of life was not accurate in history nor in the ways of thinking of living holders of the Daoist tradition. Applying teachings on xiào can bring great harmony to one's inner being, one's family, one's community, and, in the ideal world, to nations if not the entire globe. The latter possibility is of course not likely to manifest, and it is not a goal Daoists strive for. However, Daoists realize deeply that the benefits of cultivating real virtue are not merely temporal; rather, the benefits are understood to influence the outcomes of alchemical practice. I have attached a translation of this short text to this thread; other English versions can be easily found online.

Yes, I was very specific in choosing the word "strive." Knowing when to stop and making one's contribution to the world without attachment to outcomes is important.

Regarding the first part of Chi Dragon's exposition: The ancients were not talking about DNA when they used the terms pre-heaven and post-heaven. Understanding the meaning of these terms requires understanding what is implied by the structure of the character 天, not inventing pseudoscientific nonsense. There are numerous reliable dictionaries of Daoist vocabulary terms and TCM vocabulary terms. In addition to convenient and concise dictionary definitions which can be accessed by anybody who reads Chinese, there are countless ancient and modern books which further discuss these all of the terms in question in very elaborate detail. In fact, those who read Daoist liturgical scriptures will realize that much of their content is none other than detailed discussion of the terms in question. The writings of important doctors throughout Chinese history also offer deep and thorough analysis. Since Chi Dragon is so wont to gloat about the fact that Chinese is his native language, it is remarkable and distressing that he neglects to consult these publicly-accessible writings before typing out theories that he first invents off-the-cuff and later pretends represent something more than his muddled and obstinant mentations. It is fine to theorize on The Tao Bums or anywhere, if one is doing so in order to learn and engage in dialogue. It is disgraceful to theorize if one pretends to be offering the truth and is recalcitrant in the face of disagreement. Regarding the second part: Total bunk. Anybody who has gone through the first semester of TCM school in China or elsewhere can see that Chi Dragon has not understood the fundamental vocabulary of this discipline. I can only shake my head and state that whereas this guy claims that "these terms were never explicitly defined," in fact, to the exact contrary, writings which explore these questions are too numerous to mention; are very well-known; and are very easy to find. They range from the entire canons of Chinese medicine and Daoism going from the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic and the Yellow Court Classic (actually, earlier) all the way up to books being published today in both disciplines. Those who don't like reading books can now easily see free and valuable lectures on these topics all over the internet in videos in English, Chinese, and surely many other languages. Those who neither like books nor videos can also, of course, seek out living teachers, which is always the most advisable choice for the serious seeker. As one slowly, slowly, slowly begins to grasp the theory while simultaneously engaging in years of steady, disciplined practice, gradually these abstruse terms will come into focus. If one has great patience, dedication, humility, luck, intelligence, wisdom, good teachers, and good information, one may have a shot at opening doors to understanding of Dao--the greatest blessing a human could ever hope for. Conversely... conversely... ________ Chi Dragon has confessed that he lacks the ability to understand classical Chinese, and his comments betray that he also fails to study modern presentations of the same information. Yet he still believes he has license to assume professorly tones and offer confident discourse on these topics. This is the behavior of a very confused, lost man.

The Triplex Unity is not a text about cultivating energies. Using certain language and ideas derived from the Book of Changes, it describes processes that can unfold naturally when one enters stillness. Cultivating stillness and virtue are not two separate things. The metaphors of stove, cauldron, medicine, and firing times describe natural conditions and phenomena, not things which are created by the adept. Ultimately, the Triplex Unity is a text about wu wei practice.

http://www.windchasesthemoon.com/ I know a disciple of this teacher. My friend is already quite accomplished in internal cultivation, and looks up greatly to Eric Tuttle. He once showed me a long video of Tuttle sparring with other martial artists from a variety of brutal external styles, and it was truly amazing to see (no link, sorry... it was on my friend's computer). Apparently his qigong training is also very extensive. If I were in BC, his school would be my first stop.

It is a bullshit message.

It hardly needs saying, China is enormous. It therefore also hardly needs saying that for Ning or anybody else to draw conclusions about what might be taught to whom is silly. Attitude is such a simple thing. So simple, and so easy to overlook. Not because we don't realize its power, but because in spite of its simplicity and proximity to us, it is in fact impossible to change without ripping through the rigidities of habit. And yet, succeed just a little bit, and see how much your world changes. Seeming doors seemingly closed to seeming foreigners are of diminished consequence or disappear altogether to the one who sees such blurry, fleeting, laughable distinctions for what they are. Conversely, he or she who gives reality to such props will find they loom very large on one's stage indeed. I once was taken to meet a hermit in a village near Shanghai whose eyes shone in the dark and who had a visible qi field around his body that looked as though drawn by a pencil one centimeter from his skin. Kungfu novel stuff, though he lamented having to teach kungfu--the poor health of students required that they learn to move and stand, however. Well, one of his students treated everybody to an extended soliloquy regarding the inability of foreigners to ever grasp such depths as Dao. After he had exhausted himself and finally quieted down, I replied in a sentence or two that he could not possibly be right--Dao is the nature of all beings, nobody is closer or farther. The sparing-with-words master smiled with eyes that twinkled with compassion that comes from getting the cosmic joke and said, right. And that was the end of the conversation. Don't do fieldwork, don't do research. Hell, don't even do. Doing has never been the Way. Attitude, attitude. The reason all the exoteric teachings go on and on about it is...

Treating written texts as authoritative, scriptural, sacred, etc is very common in all aspects of traditional Chinese culture. The habit is still to be found here. This habit was precisely one of the things Chen was trying to change with his "Immortalism Studies," and he said so explicitly. Chinese thought, society, government, medicine, religion, and so forth all unfolded under the influence of "text worship." It continues to this day, though greatly abated.

double post

The exception? It is the rule. Many a teacher has directly said as much to me,and my own experience has confirmed this to be the case. In a variety of circumstances, paying tuition is fine, but that which is to be had or not by virtue of the power of a fat red envelope... Perhaps it is best for each person to contemplate this question as he or she seeks whatever is being sought.

Yes, it is true that nobody walks around claiming that Chen or Hu "made it." However, that does not mean that the ideas they present are valueless to students (though, for the sake of clarity, I have read very little of Hu's writing and thus can't comment on it). Ning, I do not agree with what you say about the red envelope, as my experience with money exchanges has quite often been the exact opposite. As for what can be found on Baidu or in books both English and Chinese... it is not all there, and a massive sea of misinformation and overinformation obscures the gems from those without the various type of fortune that make such things easier to see. Additionally, high-level teachings should be simple, no? Then again, perhaps I am simply fooling myself. Time and many other factors will tell. Finally, a discussion about longevity and state of health at old age and what it means in terms of Daoist cultivation is worth being had. Even the "Seven True Disciples" of Wang Chongyang (and he himself) were not long lived. Yet they remain revered and their teachings to this day are the standards by which many practice. This seeming contradiction is worthy looking at, in another thread.

Chen Yingning explains his reasons for believing that the inner secrets of Daoist alchemy should not be shared with foreigners in the foreword to his edited and annotated version of the 《乐育堂语录》. It doesn't come across as particularly racist, especially if his words are taken (as they should be) in light of the historical context of China's subjugation by foreign powers, the Opium Wars, the behavior of the Japanese during WWII, and so forth. These memories are still fresh in China--all the more so when Chen was writing. His main point was that, if even the secrets of subtle cultivation are given away, then China will having nothing left that might save her from yet more foreign aggression in the future. Chen's sentiments might seem a bit nonsensical and superstitious--after all, how could wizards and fortune tellers help China from modern warfare and financial wranglings? Is there any relationship between cultivating Dao and government? Well, though likely very few of them have truly "awakened to reality," nevertheless be sure that all manner of Yi Jing diviners, psychics and spiritualists, feng shui masters, people with "special abilities," and so forth are still to this day engaged (quietly) by the PRC government as well as by the rich and powerful. Cultivators stepping forward from lives of quiet cultivation to change history is a phenomenon all Chinese are aware of--Zhuge Liang and Qiu Chuji are two famous Daoists people on this board might be aware of who did just that--altered the course of history by virtue of the power of their... virtue. More recently, it is widely believed that the Communist victory over Nationalist forces came in part to their superior use of bagua-based strategy in warfare, thanks to the input of various wise men. Is that how it really went down? Who knows. But the belief is real. I have no idea whether or not any foreigners ever sought out Chen in search of esoteric (or exoteric) Daoist knowledge, but if he turned them away, he also would have turned many Chinese away, as well. From what I understand, his actual disciples were very few. I am not certain, but Hu Haiya might have been the only one. The recently-passed Hu Haiya, too, did not have a reputation for handing teachings out freely. In fact, this kind of attitude is a part of the Daoist tradition, as it has always been the case that while some masters may have many, many students, disciples who receive thorough transmission are always very few, including as few as one or, if no worthy heirs appear, zero. Now, if Chen was miserly in handing out koujue (口诀--simple, secret oral instructions that serve as keys which can open the door to real practice and profound understanding of theory if understood and used properly), he was certainly no miser when it came to revealing as much as possibly could be said in publicly-available writings without incurring the wrath of Heaven. I have only read a fraction of his work, but his exposition of the Triplex Unity (《周易参同契》) was extremely useful and clear. When combined with a certain amount of background knowledge to help the reader understand the things that Chen only alludes to, then it easily opens many doors that more abstruse (or mistaken) commentaries on this text leave closed. As for the pasted comments from the Chinese forum above, I agree with Excorcist that they're not particularly racist, except for the use of the word "foreign devils" haha, but even that seems relatively light hearted. And whomever wrote, "翻译者懂参同悟真吗？如此翻译，岂不是骗外国人？" is asking, "does the translator really understand the Triplex Unity? If not, then how is translating it anything other than bamboozling foreigners?" Such is anything but a racist sentiment, and a legitimate question, with foreign practitioners' best interests in mind! Finally, with regards, Trust me when I say that, when a "foreign devil" displays a level of sincerity and humility inversely proportionate to the duplicity and arrogance long freely wielded by many foreigners in China, and proves his or her ability to "eat bitter" by learning the language to real proficiency, and eats yet more bitter by doing his or her homework to learn that knowledge of the traditions of China which is freely available... well, when that foreigner walks the streets, more doors will fly open before his or her eyes than there is time to walk through. And as for those teachers whose doors still won't open when the knocker comes clothed in humility, sincerity, and perseverance... well. Either that door is simply not yours by fate... or ain't nothing behind it that you really want anyway. Pick up your begging bowl and walk to the next temple. Sooner or later somebody will give you your ladle-full of gruel... and you only need one or two to fill your belly... knamean?

yet rarer still for people to achieve it. Still, it is natural, with the outcome of one direction creating more humans, and the latter creating xian, or immortals (ie, those truly awake to their original, unchanging nature, and not simply people whose bodies don't die--this definition is expressed plainly by Zhuangzi and reiterated equally clearly much later on by Wang Chongyang, and many others). Finally, glimpses of these things make it clear to the adept whether or not they are "natural"--their arising is like all the other marvelous mechanisms of the universe, none of which is came about due to mankind's _doing_. I don't doubt that reversal contains much deeper meaning than I understand. I do not know if the XYP usage of this terminology relates to internal alchemy that traces its written root to Lv Dongbin and Zhongli Quan. I also can offer no more concrete details. There is much good info out there in books. I had good luck early on with some Cleary translations. They are of old, important works, and worth looking at for the non-Chinese speaker. Slowly learn the vocabulary on its own terms and beware conflating similar-sounding ideas with Daoism's own. In terms of practical instruction, the Daoists speak much more to the point than outsiders usually realize.

Thank you for the thoughtful and sincere posts, Chairman (good name, by the way haha). I know no more about XYP than other non-initiates on this forum, but I have a thought to offer. The notion of going in reverse of the flow of nature is a term with very specific implications in Daoist alchemy, and these implications relate to very specific events that can occur in the practitioner's being. The term can also be turned into a philosophical idea, and while that may provide genuinely useful-to-the-practitioner food for contemplation, it does not obviously relate to the internal alchemy. Regardless of whether we are talking about ancient times or the present, in China or abroad, the people who understand this vocabulary philosophically rather than technically are in the majority. Again, such thinking can yield insights and even wisdom, but know that what you are talking about is also very specific in certain circumstances. As to whether reversal is natural or not, I understand your question, as it is one that I had until I learned Chinese. The implication, in my opinion, is more about the "normal" course of human life than the natural. Reversal is equally natural, but it is rare for people to know there is an alternative, rarer yet for people to truly want it, and

The Jesus thread resolved in eight words.

Another, slightly less detailed.

All of the regions you describe feeling symptoms in are covered by the path of the governor meridian as described in the Yellow Emperor's Inner Classic (though other meridians are more closely associated with these regions). Attached is a graphic illustrating the totality of the description. Acupuncture charts and mannequins almost always exist only to display point locations. As such, not only do they omit any channels and collaterals that are inside the body or lack points, but they also "connect the dots" in a highly simplified manner that is convenient for remembering point location, but does not reflect written record of meridian flow found in the classics. If you want to combine your practical experiences with study of TCM meridian theory, you need in-depth charts and translations of the classic narrative descriptions. I am not sure if there's an English textbook with such detail, but I'd guess there probably is.

Word is bond.

好...... 好!

The harshest scolding I ever received from a Daoist came when he was talking about why Laozi wrote the Daodejing and I contradicted him by referencing one of the common stories from "history." Boy did I draw his ire. He certainly held that such visions are possible and indeed are prerequisite to one's having the right to speak on such things. His belief in/experience of these things is not uncommon if one taps into the oral tradition. There is an important part of Daoist practice which is almost never discussed in public (however, its name is well-known) which is believed to bestow adepts with the ability to know the past. Of course, no matter how accurate these visions may be, naturally enough they cannot be included in any bibliographies. I agree that your research is a noble effort--your linguistic skills and persistence are impressive! However, even if for scholastic purposes we do manage to get a very clear picture of history through such efforts, the fact seems to remain that the muddy, muddled nature of the Three Teachings in Chinese culture is ripe enough ground for cultivation as-is. From the standpoint of cultivators, chasing after such clarity could be a bit like choosing to plant a seed in spring water instead of shit (Zhuangzi's proverbial shit, of course).

But I don't mean "even in a book." Wording it this way makes it seem as though books are a place where inspiration would not normally be found. I mean that the classics themselves have a certain power. After all, raw nature is everywhere, including language. How the Daoists and Mahayana Buddhists explain the origins of their texts attests to this. As does the experience of some of those who study books and experience a response--感应. Not everybody's affinity, karma, and qi is such that they will resonate with books. Perhaps very few are this way, I don't know. But I would venture that anybody who has the ability to read does well to read the classics, even if just for a few minutes before bed.

From one angle, this is true. But I don't think that the analogy is entirely useful. Reading the classics can trigger inspiration--look carefully at what the word means. That is how I mean it. In other words, what I mean to say is that unusual experiences can and do arise both immediately during the reading of classics or much later, after a seed has been planted by what you read. Yes, sometimes you do taste the sugar when you read the classics. I have read many spiritual books both ancient and modern in both English and Chinese. In every instance where I can recall "tasting the sugar," I was reading classics, not modern books. The language I was reading in did not seem to be of primary importance--translations can do the trick. But what was key every time was that I was reading classics. They are called sutras and jing for a reason. They are passed down generation after generation for a reason. Being intellectual and pedantic for the sake of accumulating trinkets and treasures of knowledge or winning debates is not the way. But I would see be wary of those who tell you not to study the classics. There is great benefit to be had in exposing yourself to them, especially when you do so without goals and instead just let them speak to you. Great benefit. For this reason one finds in some places that certain texts are deeply venerated. Tibetan Buddhists are very serious about this and if you travel to monasteries in Tibet you will see pilgrims literally crawling beneath bookshelves on all fours in spaces designed for this purpose. They are careful not to put anything on top of sutras. Even prayer beads, despite being religious objects themselves, are not meant to be placed on top of sutras. When on accidentally drops a sutra on the ground or notices that one has placed an object on top of a sutra, one is then, in this tradition, supposed to briefly touch the book to the top of one's head. Those who have had no experience of what I'm alluding to will having trouble stomaching this, but I suggest you don't immediately write off the above as needless superstition or the quaint ornateness of an old culture. Finally, some interpret certain lines in the Daodejing or Zhuangzi as telling us that we should not study, and perhaps imagine that in China reading was a pursuit of Confucians but not Daoists. While surely many illeterates have reached enlightenment and many intellectuals are trapped in mentation, be sure that textual study has always been a very important part of Daoist practice. After all, the Daodejing and Zhuangzi are books, right? Again, read without goals. Sometimes a single sentence is enough. For very profound inspiration. Or, as a Daoist might say, to activate shen.