Walker

Lol, I assumed it was aimed at all of us assclowns

Eyyo, Earl, I think he was joking ;D You know this place is a mess when we see posts like that and we're like, "oh god, here we go again..."

The above is valuable advice from two experienced practitioners with living teachers. It bears repeating. Being an autodidact does not really work in these arts. Daoists will say that it is never too late to start, even if one is in one's 70s, 80s, or even older. But as Freeform said, "you need to have the humility and insight to firstly find the real stuff and then to train with a beginners mind."

COMMUNIST WIKIPEDIA A.K.A. BAIDUBAIKE IS NOT A LEGITIMATE SOURCE OF QUANZHEN DAOIST TEACHINGS. And nor, ChiWorm, are you.

@liminal_luke Can you please put your question in a new thread? I'll be happy to share some thoughts in a dedicated thread. This one's topic is pretty far from dietetics, and even though it has swung that way it'd be nice to steer it back while creating a place more focused on food.

Quoting this slippery nonsense so he can't go back and change it.

Dawei and ZYD, thank you both for adding some clarity to this situation. 🙏

Nice try up there, lying 王八蛋兔崽. The Daoist inner alchemy texts are full of mentions of these terms. Here are the search results from the Daoist Canon for "性功" alone. Additionally many quintessential alchemy texts that use these words liberally are not even in the canon, but are well known to practitioners. And anybody who has been taught in Chinese in the oral tradition by a Quanzhen Daoist teacher--an absolute must in order for one to be qualified to teach meditation as ChiWorm is so eager to do--would absolutely have heard these terms be used many times. In other words: ChiWorm never had a teacher, has not read any actual Daoist books, and most definitely does not know what xingming shuangxiu is, much less practice it (hint: "xing=mind, ming=body" is a totally false statement, and since ChiWorm keeps saying this even after being corrected many times, it is a lie.). 窩囊廢，你還是自覺得滾吧，沒人需要你這種敗類來這邊搗亂。滾。

Chenjian Li (Dr. Chenjian Li is the University Professor at Peking University. He is on the Advisory Board for China of Cornell University, and the Advisory Committee for China related work for Eli Lilly and Company.) Li Wenliang’s death plunged all of China into deep sorrow. A storm of outrage has gathered around the ruling regime for its mistreatment of Dr. Li and other people who dare to speak the truth and for its iron-fisted suppression of information for the sake of “stability,” which contributed to the global scale of this crisis in a major way. People are asking what we can learn from this tragedy, and what we should do so that Dr. Li will not have died in vain. The first painful realization is that the self-acclaimed superior Chinese system has failed the public trust yet again, miserably. Government officials from the municipal to the highest levels were ignorant and arrogant, placing their self-interest and loyalty to their superiors above their responsibility to the people they ought to serve. The policy that stability and loyalty to the party and its leader outweighs everything corrupts China’s whole bureaucratic system. The second lesson is that when truth is forbidden and lies flourish, citizens pay the ultimate price. Chinese people have suffered repeatedly from incredible lies—falsified information on harvests led to tens of millions of deaths during the Great Leap Famine from 1959 to 1961. It is a cancer on Chinese society that lies are so readily acceptable. Moral degeneration permeates everything, from politics, the environment for workers, finance and business to academia, even in the hard sciences. Presidents and deans of China’s most prestigious universities and medical schools published scores of high profile papers with fabricated data and went without reprimand of any kind, even after the misconduct was exposed and confirmed. Perhaps the most important revelation is that freedom of expression is the first cornerstone of a modern society. Heirs to 2000 years of authoritarian rule, Chinese people have been told that individual rights, including freedom of expression are merely Western concepts espoused by a few heads-in-the-clouds elites and not suitable for China. Even though the Articles 35 and 41 of China’s Constitution read almost like the Bill of Rights and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, violation of basic rights is a daily norm. People have been convinced or forced to trade rights for fast economic development, based under the rubric of what is called “performance legitimacy.” But now, the general public is suffering an agonizing tragedy because critical information was suppressed and because Li and his colleagues were silenced. People learn through blood and lost lives that freedom is never free, and that rights have to be fought for. The outbreak will eventually be brought under control, although it is uncertain how many will lose their lives before it ends. The regime’s propaganda machine has been ruthless. It will continue to toot its horns and twist facts until it can claim that a great battle has been won by China’s authoritarian system and its supreme leader’s wisdom, further resounding proof of its justified legitimacy and superiority. It will mercilessly crush any dissent. Today, citizens across China are taking to social media, posting the anthem from Les Miserables. “Do you hear the people sing, singing the song of angry men?” the posts demand. For the sake of China and the Chinese people, I hope that everyone is really listening.

Unfortunately, yes. @dawei Do you remember, was ChiDragon banned in 2014, or did he leave of his own accord?

Word to the wise: ReturnDragon aka "ChiDragon" was very active on this site until 2014. He disappeared in disgrace (I don't know if he was banned or simply had enough good sense to disappear) due to the following: In November 2013 ChiDragon shouted the following in all-caps: This statement made it clear that ChiDragon, who is semi-bilingual and positions himself on this forum as a font of Daoist knowledge, had obviously never made a serious reading of readily available Daoist writings, and clearly could not have received any sort of oral education in Daoism. For those who are new to these things, here is an analogy: not having heard of xing and ming practice in Daoism is a bit like not having heard of a concept like "communion" in Catholicism or "kosher" in Judaism. These concepts are utterly fundamental and they are widely known to people with only a cursory knowledge of Daoism. If a man who wanted to teach you about Catholicism yelled in all caps "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF COMMUNION IN ANY CATHOLIC TEACHINGS" would you believe anything else he had to say? If the answer is that you would, well, then ChiDragon has many lies that he would love to pour into your ears. Anyway, there is a story to see here. Please note that the above exclamation was made by ChiDragon in on November 13, 2013. Not even two months later, January 2, 2014, ChiDragon wrote the following post (bold added by me): Somehow ChiDragon went from yelling about the nonexistence of this subject to acting as its representative in just seven weeks. This was merely the start of a worsening trend, probably one predicated by untreated mental illness. I feel pity for ill individuals who need treatment, but I do not think pity requires we be politely silent and watch disasters unfold (especially if that means watching the a disaster repeat itself). This disaster of lying-mixed-with-false-spiritual-teachings continued to unfold on January 2, 2014, when ChiDragon suddenly began presenting himself as a representative of Quanzhen Daoist (全真道, often called "Complete Reality Daoism") teachings. He wrote the following: "DCXM" is an acronym that ChiDragon invented during this time period. It stands for "Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming." Recall that two months prior he had "NEVER HEARD OF XING GONG OR MING GONG in any Chinese Classics." Now he was teaching it. The next day, January 3, 2014, he wrote (bold text again is my addition): Obviously, there is no way that ChiDragon could go from "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING OR MING" to "following the principles of the Quanzhen Dao" in a mere seven weeks. At the time, if I recall correctly, he did not even live in China, but somewhere in the suburban or rural United States. Even if you lived on Mt. Wudang or Mt. Qincheng, you would likely not be able to find a qualified teacher who was willing to transmit introductory xing-ming cultivation instructions to you within seven weeks of meeting you, and you would not be able to tell if this teacher had given you genuine instructions or not in such a short amount of time. ChiDragon most certainly had not spent seven weeks wandering from temple to temple in the mountains of China. He had, at best, done some clicking around Baidu, before inventing his own "practice," stealing Daoist terminology, and inventing an acronym for it. So, when exactly did ChiDragon come up with the lie that is "DCXM?" It turns out he did that on November 21, 2013. That is, to be exact, not seven weeks but eight days after screaming "I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF XING OR MING." 8. Fucking. Days. On November 21, ChiDragon created a new thread entitled "Taoist Important Thoughts and Canon." In this post he literally copy-pasted blocks of text from Baidubaike, which is the online encyclopedia portion of the Chinese search engine, Baidu. It was only another week before ChiDragon began offering advise about cultivation in his thread. It started with: Egged along by some too-easily-impressed-by-a-bit-of-Chinese board members, ChiDragon continued his descent into megalomania. By November 27, 2013, somehow he had magically developed enough expertise to begin offering a detailed roadmap of what "DCXM" practice involves. He wrote: Just a month after not knowing what the words xing and ming mean, by December 11, 2013, ChiDragon had lost totally touch with reality, making statements about what an enlightened mind thinks, implying he personally understands these things. This is, speaking plainly, delusional false enlightenment psychosis. The reason I am making this post is to make sure this record stands right alongside the new offerings of "ReturnDragon." Newcomers, it would be extremely dangerous for you to follow the "Daoist" teachings of a mentally ill person like ChiDragon. It is, certainly, a tragedy that he is insane, and I would be overjoyed if he had a massive turn of fortune in this life that allows him to return to sanity. However, since that has not happened yet and he is back again giving out terrible qigong and neigong advice, I feel a harsh warning needs to be made. Here is what he wrote about the "true mind" on Dec 11: ChiDragon did not limit his campaign of lies and false teaching to the above thread. His new month-old "DCXM" obsession immediately began spilling all over the forum (he had over 7,000 posts) and soon he was using an expert's voice to make blanket pronouncements about the entire study of Daoist internal alchemy (also known as "内丹/neidan"). Nine months after "discovering" the concept of xing-ming on Baidu's encyclopedia, on August 4, 2014, he wrote: To make another analogy for newcomers, telling people that he knows what is the "best method to cultivate the 'internal [elixir]'" less than a year after screaming that he did not know about xing and ming would be like a person on a Buddhism forum telling you he knows the best way to reach enlightenment just eight months after screaming "I HAVE NEVER HEARD ABOUT THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH IN ANY BUDDHIST SUTRA." When you encounter a man like this, beware. He is on a downward spiral, and as they say, "misery loves company." He does not want to drown alone, and he is actively recruiting naive, gullible, credulous people to drag down with him. The saddest thing about such a descent is how much will and stubbornness is involved. The more you try to stop him, the more he slams his foot onto the gas pedal. Part of this illness seems to be a perverse notion that plowing ahead no matter how much other people disagree with you proves you are right. Catastrophe for such a person is not merely unavoidable; it has already arrived. I am content to finish this post with a final quote from ChiDragon which should suffice to make it extremely clear just how deluded and (to a practitioner who follows any of his advice) dangerous he is. On August 4, 2014 he declared himself to be a realized being. He wrote: Self-deception that has reached stratospheric levels is merely a pity. Stratospheric self-deception that attempts to blaze like a sun and redefine clearly established facts in order to aggrandize a malignant-tumor-like ego and create a following is something for which the word "crime" is probably not too light. In conclusion: A self-declared realized being now using the name "ReturnDragon" has returned to the forum promulgate a vision of Daoist philosophy and practice whose foundation is built upon fantasy, dishonesty, and a desperate need for attention and affirmation. I strongly urge: Do not be a victim. Do not be an enabler. Do not let yourself be hurt. Do not let yourself be an unwitting assistant in another man's harmful behavior. 祝 道安

真可恥，一個半吊子的不到一半還要堅持在這邊誤人子弟. I recommend you consult a dictionary next time before you interrupt me. In Buddhism and Daoism, 五葷 and 五辛 are synonyms (synonym is English for 同義詞). They refer to a class of plants with qi that is considered especially turbid (濁/zhuo) and which are possessed of what would be called aphrodisiac qualities in English. The most well-known are garlic, onions, and tuber onion (韭菜/jiucai, also called "poor man's Viagra" in China). In the context of Daoism and Buddhism, the character 辛 does not mean "spicy." There is no prohibition in Quanzhen Daoism against eating spicy food. Hot peppers are commonly found in monastery cuisine, as is ginger, which some people would say has a spicy flavor. Lying little ChiDragon, your own signature says "Fallacies are not worth to be mentioned," and yet almost everything you mention is a fallacy. Did you come back here just "to show your own ignorance?" Well, 建議你做好個心理準備吧, because I will keep pointing at your ignorance, so that no unlucky people hurt themselves listening to your bullshit reverse breathing instructions and your 現炒現賣 "DCXM" lies.

I think what you say is true. The situation is perhaps slowly improving, but increasing interest in Daoism also seems to mean more opportunities for less-than-qualified "teachers" to hang their shingles all over the internet. Please don't feel there is any need to be especially grateful towards me. I'm just taking time to share some things that my teachers generously took time to share with me, out of a sense of responsibility, and with the knowledge that I can at best paint only a partial picture. Hopefully the spotlight can get off of individuals as soon as possible and help people to engage with authentic teachings and teachers directly. Heaven help the poor soul who attempts to walk the Daoist path on the basis of what random Joe Schmoes on the internet say!

見人說人話。。。 If you are here to observe and participate with honor, I don't think anybody here will object. But you have already begun spreading disinformation in a beginner's thread by saying "reverse breathing is the ultimate goal in martial arts and qigong." You are off to a poor start. It is terribly dishonorable to pretend to be an expert and give false instructions to beginners. 自重.

You know very well that was not a welcome, 窩囊廢. Unless you have changed your pathological lying ways, you will find you have even less fun here than you used to. The board has changed. There are fewer fools who are easily impressed with half-assed Chinese translations, and more sharp people who see it as their responsibility to stop scamgong fakers from hurting beginners by handing out imaginary qigong, neigong, and martial arts instructions. It would be better if you went away instead trolling this place again.

The ChiDragon campaign of lies stacked upon lies stacked upon lies begins again. Beginners: beware taking any qigong, neigong, Daoism, etc. advice from ReturnDragon aka ChiDragon.

If Lovitt has mastered several Chinese dialects, that is an extremely impressive feat for a foreigner, and hard work even for people born in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, and so forth. Kudos to him. However, Being raised by a Chinese man does not mean a person will know what the Quanzhen monastic precepts are. I have made acquaintance with literally thousands of people raised by Chinese parents. I would guess that about 0.01% of them know about Quanzhen precepts by virtue of having a Chinese parent. Also, being trained in Ch'an and Zhengyi Daoism by no means indicates that one's education will discuss--even for a minute--the Quanzhen precepts. Ch'an monks and nuns can be almost guaranteed to have little to no knowledge of Quanzhen monastic strictures. Zhengyi Daoists are likely to know somewhat more, but as this is not a matter central to their own lineage, their knowledge is not likely to be thorough unless they have close relationships with Quanzhen Daoists or have taken special time to research Quanzhen monasticism. My point is not that it is necessarily wrong that you had to pay for your Daoist education (it is not necessarily right, either, and your notion that money must change hands in exchange for Daoist teachings is incorrect--I say this out of extensive personal experience). Rather, my point is that if you have graduated from a Dragon Gate "seminary" that tells you you have a role that does not exist in Dragon Gate Daoism, and has also clearly failed to teach you even the basic Daoist vocabulary that describes these roles to you, then there is something wrong with this seminary, and what it is providing does not justify thousands of people's dollars and years of people's lives. In addition to shocking ignorance for a man who proudly and repeatedly declares himself to be an ordained member of not one but two Daoist orders, you also display a bizarre resistance to filling some of the massive lacuna in your education by learning the basic knowledge any member of your orders would be expect to learn in the very beginning. So, no, the differences between daoshi and daozhang are not minutiae, they are important. Let me explain (not so much for you, Nathan, because at this point your mind seems to be made up, but for others who are curious) why this might be important: Although Daoists certainly have their "main teachers," it is common for Daoists in different lineages to actually learn from a great number of teachers over the years. This is in part because Daoists often wander in order to seek out new teachers and teachings, and also because wandering masters may visit one's own village, city, or rural temple. The different names that Daoists have and the ranks/experience levels that they indicate are fundamentally important to know, because they suggest to Daoists what kind of things one might learn from a teacher one has not met before, and also what kind of respect it might be wise to show. For instance, if the Four Dragon school is really qualified to initiate Zhengyi daoshi, it is feasible that one day a graduate of this program could travel to a new city and be told by a well-meaning acquaintance, "oh, you are a Zhengyi daoshi? Did you know there is a temple here, too, run by so-and-so who is a daozhang from such-and-such province in China?" The ears of a Zhengyi daoshi who knows his/her basic vocabulary would perk up upon hearing this, because it would mean that fate and good fortune during his or her travels have presented the possibility of learning from a much more experienced member of the tradition. The same sort of thing exists in Quanzhen Daoism. I already went into detail about 律師/lvshi, the highly-trained Daoists who are masters of the monastic precepts. There are other words that indicated different types of training and mastery, among the most important of which are 高功/gaogong. Gaogong are Quanzhen's ritual masters. In traditional training, reaching such a level is generally said to take at least a decade of extremely rigorous training in both performing rituals as well as internal practices. Fundamentally, a gaogong is one who is not simply good at playing the music, chanting the scriptures, and doing all of the steps, bows, mudras, and so forth of ritual. No, far beyond this, a gaogong's internal training and 德 are understood to mean that he or she can truly act as a conduit between the realms of humans and immortals, and as such when a real gaogong performs a ritual, this person knows if and when the immortals have responded, because this person sees them, directly. Returning to the question of why it is not a question of minutiae to know these terms, imagine if one were a young, wandering Quanzhen Longmen monk or nun with an interest in ritual service. One could, if fate and fortune allowed, one night take up residence in a temple on a distant mountain or village, only to be told during a pleasant chat with the monk at that temple, "ah, I did not expect a person as young as yourself to have such a sincere desire to learn Dao! You've clearly learned well from your master, and I can tell that you study diligently. You won't believe this, but so-and-so gaogong from such-and-such holy mountain just came out of retreat and is going to be passing through here in a couple of days. Why don't you stick around so you get a chance to meet him/her? Who knows, you might find that you have yuanfen with this master--who knows what he/she might teach you?" These sorts of scenarios are real (again, personal experience) and they're a key part of a person's path, which cannot be planned. A self-declared "Daoist priest" who thinks that knowing different names of Daoist roles and ranks is "minutiae" would have no idea what gaogong meant, and therefore be incapable of judging whether or not it would be a good idea to hang around the temple for another week to see if the chance to possibly meet a great master materialized or not. Even worse, he or she could meet this master and think nothing of it. Far worse, he or she might meet such a master and think, "pfffft, who gives a shit? Gaogong-schmaogong, I already went to Daoism school and I'm already fully trained and ordained." All of the above will be, for the sincere, food for thought. Allow me to add one more morsel in the form of a warning and lament: There is a Daoist at White Cloud Monastery called 孟至嶺, currently the vice-secretary of the China Daoism Association. I have met him and he is a monk who, in earlier times, did devote himself to serious training, including long-term retreat in the mountains northern China. He is an extremely intelligent man, and widely versed in much of Daoism's precious wisdom and knowledge. Unfortunately, his wisdom was not sufficient to prevent him from getting involved in a terribly harebrained and immoral scheme a few years ago, which was the following: The White Cloud Monastery, sometime around 2010 or 2011 made it known that it was opening an official gaogong class for foreigners. Now, when I first heard this, naturally I thought, amazing, the White Cloud Monastery itself will be teaching foreigners everything they need to know to be fully-qualified gaogong, and the erudite Daoist Meng Zhiling himself is overseeing this program? Great! That was before I learned the details. In fact, whereas a real gaogong needs to train for ten years or more, the White Cloud Monastery decided that these foreign gaogong would be minted in ten days. They did not even need to speak Chinese, much less read it. All they did was chant the scriptures in pinyin and take a few basic Daoist theory classes during their holiday class in China's most important Daoist temple. After ten days they all got their robes and diplomas stating that they were gaogong. I even saw the photos, with Meng Zhiling standing there lending the event official sanction of the China Daoism Association. This fiasco is yet another example of why it is supremely ignorant to call the basic knowledge of Daoist roles and ranks "minutiae." Those foreigners, without knowing as much, have made fools of themselves, and the Daoists like Meng Zhiling who were involved in this course knowingly made fools of themselves. If we return to the above scenario of the traveling Daoist in a temple, imagine if he or she did wait an extra five days for the gaogong to arrive, only to be shocked to discover that this was not a Chinese but a foreign gaogong. The young Daoist might be intrigued at first, and maybe a bit skeptical, thinking, "Could a foreigner really reach this level? Well, why not, we are all part of the same Dao, and besides, perhaps in other lands they too have great wisdom to share. I guess I'll go introduce myself!" Now imagine the young Daoist's surprise when he or she quickly realizes that this visiting gaogong does not speak a word of Chinese. A little bit mystified, the young Daoist might quietly inquire with various other people in the temple, only to be told in confidence, "look, I hate to say this, but while that foreigner is a terribly nice person, he isn't really a gaogong--he just paid a few thousand US dollars to take some silly class at White Cloud Monastery and they gave him these robes and a certificate. Like I said, he's a nice guy, but if you're looking for a real teacher, you won't find one here." A Daoist who has the basic vocabulary knowledge needed to have the above discussion thereby skips the misfortune that would come from being lured into a bullshit game of lineage-for-sale and Daoist-title-for-sale. An aspirant who has decided all of this is superfluous "minutiae" misses opportunities to learn from real teachers, and increases greatly his/her chances of being deceived by charlatans and pretenders. Thus, Building a vocabulary is jibengong. I will only answer the third question, "why has this struck a nerve with you." I feel a responsibility to speak up and offer my perspective when I see misinformation, partial information, and confusion around basic knowledge and tenets of Quanzhen Daoism being presented as facts on a message board where most people have not yet had the opportunity to do the kind of study they would need to do in order to be ale to spot the glaring mistakes and lacuna. I have seen enough people waste huge amounts of time, money, energy, and enthusiasm due to the mistakes that come from not being able to tell the difference between--for instance--a daogong who has trained for ten years and a gaogong who has trained for to days. Given that what Wang Chongyang and Qiu Chuji clearly wished for people go be able to obtain from the teachings they left to the world may simply be lost to those who step into the worlds of confused and dishonest teachers (of which there are many), I am taking quite a bit of my time to do my best to present gleanings from my own extensive wanderings and studies. I do not, actually, hope that people will read what I've written and immediately write off you, Lovitt, Zhang, and the Four Dragons school. Rather, I hope that they might say to themselves, "hmm, I should definitely keep the old Daoist requirement that students observe teachers for three years in mind before I commit to formally entering a master-disciple relationship, bowing into a lineage, or signing up for a school that is meant to turn me into a daoshi. I can use that time to closely observe my own heart and its contents as well as the behavior and teachings of the teacher in question. I can also use that extra 1,000 days to study more basic background knowledge with patience, circumspection, and dis-passion, so that I will be more prepared for the huge step that I might wish to take. After all, it does seem wise to avoid rashly rushing into things. Never know what's hidden behind first impressions." Did Lovitt write this? I can say that whoever wrote that is deceiving you, although I cannot say I know why that person is deceiving you. I wish I did not have to use my time dealing with so many false statements (if you, Nathan, did your homework you would be able to spot them yourself), but here goes: There are no Taoist lineage that mandate celibacy and renunciation unless they are specifically focused on that, which ours is not. Nathan, did you not read this article? Search for the word "celibate." Zhang Shifu was very clear in our platform statement that we are a non-monastic platform because she understood that when Taoism came to the west it would need to be accessible to western people. Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts nor are they the point when following the Dao. SirPalomides already dispatched with this nonsense in a post above, but I reemphasize that this is fluff. Both celibacy and renunciation are concepts that have existed in numerous cultivation traditions in the west for millennia. Whoever wrote this is a lazy thinker and clearly thinks you are, too, Nathan. As for Zhang Mingxin's supposed conclusions, how on earth would she know? How much time has she spent in western countries, and which ones? How many western languages does she speak and read, and which ones? How has she gone about making a study of western people's in order to arrive at the conclusion that violating the basic principles of her order in order to attract disciples would help to make Daoism accessible to westerners? Why was this even necessary when it would be perfectly fine for Zhang Mingxin to have western disciples who do not claim to be Dragon Gate daoshi, and instead simply learn from her in the role of lay disciples? Do you have answers for any of those questions? If so, what are they? If you go back to the Tang Dynasty or even the Ming Dynasty you might find that they advocated it, but that was within their cultural context and it fell out of favor. Whoever is writing here seems to think that you cannot or will not do any research to investigate their ahistorical claims. Wang Changyue (王常月), one of the most important Dragon Gate Daoists of the final dynastic period of China, the Qing dynasty, revived the precepts that had been used during the Yuan and Ming. In other words, the precepts were strongly in favor during the Qing dynasty and remain strongly in favor for serious monks and nuns to this very day. But in Zhengyi The priests always married and had kids, because it’s 100% Dao. Priests did not always marry and have kids in Zhengyi Daoism, although those that did were probably in the great majority. I do not know what "100% Dao" means, but it seems like the writer is trying to suggest that monastic celibacy is less than 100% Dao. Many people make such claims. However, I do not know why such people would claim to be inheritors of Wang Chongyang, Ma Danyang, Qiu Chuji, Wang Changyue, et al's teachings. Zhang Shifu being the secretary general of the China Taoist Association makes all concessions and rules for all ordained Taoist worldwide. Utter nonsense. The CDA is a bureaucratic/administrative arm of the Chinese Communist Party whose main mission is to maintain the power of the Chinese Communist Party. All else is secondary or tertiary. Rising to any level in the CDA indicates that the CCP sees loyalty to the party in a person, and is an indication of the ability to play politics, with spiritual achievements being ancillary. Even if a person with real spiritual achievements becomes a high-ranking or even the top-ranked member of the CDA, that does not mean that he or she "makes all concessions and rules for ordained Taoists worldwide." That claim is spurious and preposterous. I doubt even Zhang Mingxin herself would ever claim to have this power. Whoever wrote that to you is putting her up on a pedestal and projecting things onto her that do not reflect reality in any way, shape, or form Zhang Mingxin is definitely not the supreme lord of Daoists worldwide. You really need to take more responsibility for your own education and stop letting whoever you're talking to fill you ear with this silliness. People who think you cannot be Quanzhen and married are just bookworms who read too much and know too little about how things really work today" Mmm-hmm. There is a phrase in Chinese, Nathan, which goes: 讀萬卷書 行萬里路 There is no crime in being a bookworm. In fact it behooves a disciple of Daoism to be one. It also behooves a disciple of Daoism to travel far and wide, in order to get a lay of the land, meet many other Daoists, and hopefully encounter a few qualified teachers. You are far behind on both of these tasks. You need to work harder, "Daoist priest." Those who have spent time in China know that photos like this are key to obtaining promotion in the communist cadre hierarchy. Of course, it may be an innocent group photo. The fact that photos of Lovitt visiting Qingzhen have been bandied about on the CCP's United Front Work Group's own website suggests that the communist party sees worldwide promotion of Daoism under the CDA's control as a useful soft power tool, in the vein as the Confucius Institute. Of course, Zhang Mingxin may simply be an innocent little dear that I am unfairly picking on. But then again, Are there really innocent little dears in the top echelons of the CCP? Hmm. This stunning utterance, Nathan, suggests that you have little understanding of the concept of lineage in Daoism in general, to say nothing of your own lineage. Freeform already addressed this post with wisdom. I suggest you reflect with sincerity upon what you are saying. If the teachings of your lineage's founders are meaningless to you, it is probably time to question what the meaning of you being in that lineage is, and how you look by repeatedly reminding people that you are a part of this lineage, as though that gives you some kind of authority. The founders of the Quanzhen dealt with the armies of Genghis-fucking-Khan. Warfare and oppression raged throughout China for as long as the Quanzhen has been around. People's desires were always there, as were the risks inherent all of the violent eras in which Quanzhen continued its existence. In other words, the PRC is not an excuse for anything, and even if it were an excuse for eliminating the core teachings of Quanzhen monasticism, it is no excuse for eliminating those rules for people in Texas, which last time I checked is pretty damn far away from the CCP's central offices Beijing. Again, "they don't have much say any more" suggests you severely misunderstand the meaning of lineage. The "seminary" you attended has committed a grievous oversight if it failed to convey to you the way Daoists view their ancestors. You have much left to learn. 1. Again, Zhang Mingxin is not overlord of Daoism, so no, she does not unilaterally decide "what is kosher" for anybody. 2. You have used up so much of my time with your misinformation, Nathan. The sad thing is that you will probably reject everything I am about to show you out of hand and go off on a tangent about how I have called you names or used ad hominems. Whatever. This is really for the benefit of those who are looking on and aren't sure who to believe. You want laws? Here. Do you know of the State Administration for Religious Affairs, which outranks the China Daoism Association? It SARA who crack the whip on the CDA and make sure that the bureaucrats in robes do as their told (they also sent a guy to come check up on me once when I was living in a remote Daoist temple). Here, State Administration for Religious Affairs' own website: 全真派由金代王重阳创立，全真道士必须受戒方能名登“仙籍”。全真派道士为出家道士，不结婚、素食，住在道观里。 This means: "The Quanzhen lineage was founded by Wang Chongyang in the Jin dynasty. Quanzhen daoshi must receive precepts, and only then can they have their names listed on the "Immortal Register." Quanzhen lineage daoshi are monastic ["left family"=出家/chujia] daoshi. They do not marry, they eat a vegetarian diet, and they live inside of Daoist temples." Want more? How about from another Chinese government website: 现今，道教两派之中，全真恪守古训，苦心厉志，不立家室，禁绝荤辛；而正一则允许成家，除斋醮活动期间，一般不禁绝荤辛饮酒，但求心净而已。 This means: "Nowadays, of the two Daoist lineages, the Quanzhen scrupulously abide by the ancient disciplines, painstakingly and with strong will. They do not establish families, and they proscribe the eating of [meat and plants categories as hun]. Conversely, Zhengyi allows marriage, and except for during the periods of zhai-jiao [rituals], they typically do not proscribe eating meat and [hun plants] or drinking alcohol. They only seek to keep the mind pure. Want another Chinese government website? I'm getting tired of this, so last one: 两派的信仰并无差异，只是在教规教戒上有所不同。全真派要求素食、出家（不结婚）、住观，正一派则无这些规定。 "The two lineages [Quanzhen and Zhengyi] have no differences in terms of beliefs. Only in terms of their religious rules and strictures do they have differences. The quanzhen lineage requires a vegetarian diet, leaving-the-family (they do not marry), and living in temples. The Zhengyi lineage, conversely, does not have these rules." __________________ Nathan, here is a question you might consider asking your teacher: What were the monastic precepts (戒) transmitted by your great-grand-teacher Fu Yuantian (傅圓天) in Sichuan on Mt. Qingcheng in 1995? As Lovitt is fluent in many Chinese dialects and is running a Dragon Gate "seminary," he should have no trouble listing explaining these strictures to you and your classmates. The information is widely available. __________________ Damn near missed lunchtime trying to educate these youths.

The answer is yes, absolutely. Such initiations exist, are widespread, continue to be practiced to this day, and serve as important marker in a student's progression into Daoist teachings. In such a ritual that I took part in, there was a printed prayer petition (疏) specific for this ritual. Most of its text was pre-printed on a large, yellow piece of paper; spaces were left to fill in the disciple's name, date and time of birth, address, master, temple where the initiation was taking place, name of master under which the disciple was entering the lineage, and the new Daoist name of the disciple. A ritual of approximately 40 minutes in length was performed involving liturgy performed by a mix of monks, nuns, and trained laypeople. During the ritual the 疏 was rolled up, placed in a folded paper box, and lit on fire while held in the new disciple's hands. This ceremony, performed by Quanzhen Longmen Daoists, used the same name as the Buddhist refuge ceremony does in Chinese: "皈依." It so happens that I spent yesterday hanging out with a person who spent five years on Baimashan in Hubei province in Five Immortals Temple. I mentioned your question to him and he said that there, too, there is a ceremony. They call the "起名" ceremony, which you might translate as "giving a name." Under Master Li at Five Immortals Temple, this ceremony signifies that the recipient of a Daoist name has become a student of Li in his lineage, but not a formal disciple, and definitely not a monk or nun (出家人). Apparently Master Li still has no disciples; there are sometimes monks and nuns at his temple, but I don't know if they entered monastic life under him, or under other masters. This ceremony also involves a written prayer on paper that is burned in order to deliver the new student's name to the realm of immortals. I know a lay member of the Zhengyi sect. He also went through a dramatic ritual (it involved climbing a sword ladder--this is not something that is common). I know two lay members of the Wudang Longmen under 裴錫榮. They were initiated in small but very formal ceremonies under the late Master Pei. These were not religious ceremonies conducted in temples, and both disciples are clear to state that they are not called daoshi or daozhang. The rituals of initiation are fairly diverse and may themselves have different names. What seems to be common among them is: the delivery of a petition/prayer in a solemn ritual intended to inform the ancestors and guardians of the lineage that a new member has entered the door; the giving of a new "Daoist name" that places the recipient within this door (often but not always this name comes from a lineage poem, so one of its characters may indicate the lineage generation of the disciple); the conveying of a sense of responsibility (lay disciples seem to infrequently take precepts or vows, but are nevertheless expected to behave as upstanding members of their communities and to cleave towards 德 in their thoughts and actions). There is a phrase in Chinese that is commonly used in cultivation circles: "師傅引進門，修行在個人." This is, roughly, "a master brings [a person] through the door, but cultivation is up to the individual." This phrase is often uttered to remind people that being initiated into a school, lineage, or teaching is only the first tiny step, and that actually making progress is a question of ceaseless effort for years and years. However, we may also see something else implied in the first half of that phrase, specifically the notion that entering the door is predicated upon having a master. I think it can be fairly said that in the Chinese cultivation traditions, it is considered crucial to have a teacher bring one into a teaching in order to be considered "in the door." The reasons for this are manifold and probably don't need to be named one-by-one... For now, suffice to say, the existence of these rituals and their prominence is strong evidence for how seriously the connection of disciples to lineages is taken. Incidentally, I have taken part in two Buddhist refuge ceremonies, one in the Tibetan Kagyu tradition and one in the Chinese tradition, conducted by a Han Chinese monk who was a student of Empty Cloud (虛雲老和尚) as well as a Gelugpa. In both ceremonies Buddhist names were given. These types of names are usually called 法號 (Dharma name) or 道號 (Dao name). I have heard Daoists call their Daoist names 法號. The giving of names seems to be less of a thing outside of the religious community, but I know it does happen in martial arts and even in other traditions that often involved master-disciple relationships in China, such as painting and calligraphy. ___________ By the way, the person you are struggling to communicate with, ReturnDragon, used to go by the name ChiDragon. He is one of the most egregious pathological liars this site has ever known. Luckily he went away six or seven years ago, after he shamed himself terribly by presenting himself as a teacher of taijiquan and Daoist cultivation. Although his lies had long been clear to those with enough background to spot them, he managed to fool the uninitiated for quite a long time (his M.O. is to bandy about his 三脚貓 Chinese translation skill and pretend that this and his ethnicity make him a qualified expert). He made a total fool of himself when he began to vehemently deny that there is such a thing as 性命雙修 in Daoism, even going to far as to rant in all-caps that it did not exist. Shockingly and disgustingly, a fortnight later he returned and deleted his rants, possibly having read a few Wikipedia or Baidubaike pages. His next step was to then begin teaching about 性命雙修 and blathering at length about how this concept underpins his personal cultivation. He even created an acronym that he wrote everywhere, DCXM I think it was. When called out for his hypocrisy, being too stupid to realize that this site keeps a permanent record of edited posts, he denied that two weeks prior he did not even know what 性命雙修 meant. Dawei dug this liar's original posts up, and ChiDragon soon disappeared. I do not know if he was banned, suspended, or simply 丟臉得太嚴重了. At any rate, he is back, and his mendacity and stupidity are once again on display. It is a shame, but this site is not set up in a way as prevents mentally ill liars from treating it as their pulpit. When he first returned I thought that a half-decade break may have given ChiDragon enough time to mature. Thus far he is off to a very bad start. If he does not slow down, I predict soon he will begin generating massive negative karma by spreading imaginary taijiquan and neigong teachings as well as lies about Daoism, with his post count quickly reaching into the thousands. If he does so I will make a separate post to warn about him. Fortunately the written record of his pathological dishonesty remains for all to see.

I see. Well you will have to answer the questions I linked to above if you wish to discuss anything else with me. As it stands, I see no reason more reason to believe you talk to Laozi than I see reason to believe that Billy Graham talks to Jesus. Ta-ta!

Wait, are you calling me a... 'Cause I'm flattered Well, ahem, some people rather like a long, solid post. Actually it was sincere. I thought about it and I realized that I would not appreciate such a comparison. I also realized that it was not fair to drag Drew into this, much as I dislike some of the things he has said. The laugh was sincere, too, though. After all... It was funny to me.

I have also long expected fully-fledged megalomania from you. At any rate, you see me on a side. I am just me. Some things people say I appreciate, and I may voice appreciation. Some things people say I see as unacceptable, and I may voice my dismay. Threatening people because they do not agree with everything you say and they do not give you carte blanche to bully them is lowly. Consider my dismay voiced. Few TDB retirements seem to last, but I wish you well wherever your path takes you. It is true, I do not have a deep understanding of karma. I don't believe you do either, but that does not really matter... You don't seem particularly interested with applying yourself in a way that would convince people of anything here. Hahaha, fair enough. In the spirit of trying to make this a kinder, gentler forum: I see what you mean, I apologize, and I retract my statement

I've heard it discussed, but scraping my mind I can't remember the reason. I think it might be one of those things where the original meaning is lost to time, but don't quote me on that. Googling 道教忌諱石榴 brings up a lot of stuff, but I didn't see an explanation other than that they are "not pure." That must have taken a lot of time to translate. Nice contribution!

Your behavior has deteriorated markedly in a short period of time. You say you have offered teachings, but I have never seen you give more than a scanty tidbit here or there, never a teaching. Instead, you dangle the prospect of 20,000 euro classes and some secret future message board. This is just advertising. You call yourself a cultivator, but here you are making threats of using black magic on people who have done nothing but expect you to display basic maturity. You are attempting to use terror to cow people into giving you blind obeisance on a message board. A paucity of 德 is necessary for a person to behave in this way. Without 德, "cultivating" is akin to sewing the ground around you with land mines. If you have accomplishments anywhere approaching what you claim, you are currently providing a case study in why Buddhism constantly warns that it is no desirable thing to become an asura. If you do not have the accomplishments you claim to have, then just get in line behind Drew. After he's made his 20 dollars, maybe there will be a chance for you to make your 20,000 euros. Whatever you are--or think you are--you clearly have not transcended the need for human company. In fact, your "omnipresence" here suggests you need quite a bit of human company and attention. You're going to have to show a bit of civility if you want to get along with others. If you don't want to get along with others, you're going to have to deal with them treating you like the asshole you are currently being. If you can do no better than respond to negative attention with threats of spiritual violence, you will lose the respect of all but a few buffoons who need strongmen figures in their lives. If you actually possess the abilities you claim to have and harm others with them, you will most likely learn that you are not as free from karma as you may think. Now that would be a pity. You could take a little break, reflect on the value of what you're doing and the value that this forum has in your life (clearly a lot of value, or you would not be camped out here) and contemplate whether or not attempting to terrorize people will bring any good results whatsoever.

Oh. You are back. Hello, Flowing Hands. I did not know you wanted to discuss the Daodejing with me. I am happy to do so if you open up a thread for this purpose. But first, so that we may embark upon a new discussion having closed the book on our previous, as-yet-unfinished discussion, please go to this thread and answer my questions directed at you there. As of now, they still sit unanswered. Then, once we have gotten that out of the way, I am happy to try and speak to you about the Daodejing. ___________ As for the rest of this thread, I fear today I do not have the time to type up another open course on basic knowledge of Daoist religion. I will address these things later.

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