fiveelementtao

Sloppy.... the issue I am raising is...Learning from internet, books and videos as opposed to live teachers. I read one of your recent posts and came to find out that I had a very mistaken understanding about you. So, in order to stay on topic and before I respond to you directly, I want to make sure I am not making incorrect assumptions about you. In order to better help me have a constructive conversation with you, can you please tell me: How old are you? and what teachers and lineages have you personally trained with? (outside of books, videos or internet) Skype is OK, I will accept that as live training.. My apologies and thanks for your indulgence... edit: Sorry... I now see that you are 21... So, sloppy, I was under the assumption that you were in your 30s or 40s and had been training for at least 15 years. ( I don't know where I got that idea. My apologies) I thought that your skepticism arose from disappointments from training with several teachers. Assuming you have not actually trained with any live teachers in the few years you have been investigating, I don't understand your skepticism. In my day, when I was your age, we traveled around and actually trained with different people looking for a good teacher. If one teacher didn;t have what we wanted, we were grateful for knowing which teacher or path to eliminate. Yes, there are bad teachers out there.. So, what? Take it as a lesson and move on... You had one bad experience with ONE karate teacher? Yeah.. so, go find another... That's what we did when I was your age... Sloppy, You have spent alot of time on this forum complaining about having no proof. You hyper intellectualize and analyze everything but you have not talked about actually seeking people out... You have raked me over the coals analyzing my claims, yet you have made zero effort to train with me to see for yourself. I'm sure there are a few more teachers on here you have scrutinized but not actually visited... You have been demanding that people prove everything to you scientifically before you will deign to allow them the privilege of training you... You act as though you are doing all teachers a favor if you decided to become their student... This is very typical of the internet age... I am pointing this out, not to harrass you, but because this epitomizes the internet generation's sense of entitlement that everything should come to them immediately and cheaply... You are not to blame. This is the result of our dependence on technology and if you are 21, then you have never lived without having instant access and gratification. So, I don't mean this as a criticism. IMO, if you are REALLY serious about finding out the truth and finding a good system, you are going to need to get out from behind the computer screen, travel around, meet some live teacher and spend some TIME investigating and training. After maybe ten years of investigating with live teachers, then maybe, just maybe, you will have some actual experience to make some judgements about systems and teachers... Until then, I'm sorry to say that IMO, you are using your skepticism as a way to stay safe and not take a real risk.... Time to stop the talk and do the walk... I know you're going to probably want to argue with me about this and we don't share a common experience, so, I am going to withdraw from further discussion about this with you... Because until you actually do something other than read and talk about it... It's all talk.... good luck in your search...

I understand... I think you might be better served by asking where you can find teachers in your area who teach those styles of qigong and nei gong... Then you can ask that teacher in person all your questions and get better answers to help you in your decision making process... Peace...

Very Good! That is right, which is why I asked whether you had asked a teacher. Some of the practices you mention are pretty high level qigong and should not be learned without a live teacher to guide you... Your question is a very common one recently. I do not know your age, but I assume based on your question that you are a young adult. People nowadays want to try and intellectually figure out certain practices before they "try" a spiritual practice. You are not alone. I get these kinds of questions all the time. "What does this practice do? How long before I see results?" etc.. etc.. It reminds me of how someone searches the internet or ebay for a product. They want to know all the details before they buy. I am increasingly getting the feeling that teenagers and young adults see spiritual practices like products that they are shopping for on the internet... This is a very recent phenomenon. I believe it is a result of the internet age. teenagers and 20 something-ers have never lived without access to instant communication. So, this is understandable. However, I have found that it is much better to simply pick a teacher and a practice that you feel drawn to and experience a practice first. No matter how much intellectual info you get about a practice, you will not know what the practice really is like until you do it. I do not think you will be able to figure out what a practice does ahead of time... Until recently (past 10 years or so) people used to ask about how good certain teachers were, because it was assumed that the quality of a practice was more about who they were learning from instead of what they were learning. It doesn't matter what the practice is, if you have a bad teacher or are learning only from books, it won't matter if you have the best practice in the world... However, if you have a good teacher and are only learning "Basic" qigong, you will gain everything.... There was a saying in martial arts... "you don't fight the art, you fight the fighter..." So, I suggest stop shopping for a style and start shopping for a teacher... Then again, apparently I am a dinosaur... Sorry for unloading on you... I have been watching this kind of thinking increasing unchecked on this forum recently... Good luck with your search...

Very Good Question. It is very good to know the difference between different practices so that you can know how to best practice them together or not. What did your teacher say when you asked him/her?

When you say "mind" it sounds like intellect to me which is vastly different than true mind. Using the intellect to repress emotions is what modern Westerners do best! The left brain/intellect is not capable of processing emotions so it stuffs them down. This is good during a crisis situation, but once the crisis has passed, then the individual then can feel and process the emotions. So, by not taking the time to process and feel emotions, many modern Westerners are in a continual state of increasing crisis. No wonder we have so many medical issues in the West! Unfortunately, when the intellect is called upon every time there is an intense emotion, then the intellect takes supreme control, it believes it is the true mind. Conversely,The spiritual mind which reflects the spirit enjoys processing emotions and transforming that energy into wisdom and knowledge... P.S. Sorry Astral, I have not called you yet. I've been a little busy on my end...

Thanks Enishi for the honest review. And thanks Phore, for having the bravery and the generosity to share your gift with us. The world needs more people like you... Blessings...

ROFL Yeah, it's a renewable resource... after millions of years of and tons of rotting plant material under precise conditions... So, for us taoist immortals, we can just keep practicing through a few more epochs and then start all over again. What fun!

Here's something else for people to chew on regarding Kundalini... Indian spiritual sects are varied. There is not a catholic Hindu faith. Some worship Vishnu, Some worship Shiva, Some worship Shakti (Kundalini Ma), etc... Many disagree with each other. There are varied understandings of Kundalini. Indians are as likely to misunderstand or project their personal agendas onto religions as anyone else... So, here are some alternate traditional Hindu, tantric understandings of Kundalini Ma. There is a Shaivite tantric sect that prays to Kundalini Ma. Do you know what they call Her? They call Her "Whore." This is because they understand that Her job (the personality) is to unite with pure consciousness (Shiva.) So, everytime the kundalini rises and opens another chakra, She becomes enamored with another false suitor. For instance, in the Heart Chakra, Kundalini becomes enamored with Religion. She mistakes religious activities for true spirituality. such as spreading religion and doing good deeds like feed the poor. This happens in a different way when every chakra is opened by Kundalini Ma. In each case, there is always a concept that Kundalini mistakes for true Spirit. Then after she learns that whatever she has become attached to is a false lover, she discards it for the next chakra and it begins again until true union (yoga) with Lord Shiva (consciousness) is acheived. It is not until She reaches the crown chakra where she sees Her true husband Shiva that she is reunited with Him and the Soul is liberated and...Kundalini dies.... If Kundalini does not die, She is reborn into another body, She takes the Soul with her and the person starts where they left off in the last life. This is why some people have different siddhis.... Therefore, according to this particular Tantric sect, any experiences whether they be physical, emotional, energetic, psychological or even spiritual are considered to be Kundalini Ma having an illicit affair and cheating on Her Husband... The goal of traditional Tantric Yoga is not about energy experiences. It is to seek to satisfy all desires so that they may be removed. Those yogis who follow the tantric path understand this as they seek to satisfy their energetic desires. The trap is that one can become trapped in these experiences and believe they have achieved enlightenment...

That is Primordial Qigong Set a very cool non-martial qigong set. I practice it regularly and highly recommend it. IME, Very subtle, yet powerful healing energy. For me, a shamanic set that helps to connect to lineage powers...great to do before deep meditation. taught for free on Youtube by Michael Winn and paul rubbio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNX4t7o3hKI

Some years back, I was doing a sadhana to Kali and after a couple weeks of chanting her mantra, I began to have this very intense realization that a woman's menses is a time of great power and sacrifice and that the blood she releases is a huge sacrifice that is most holy. For a few days, I was actually very teary eyed thinking about it. All women became a vessel for the Great Mother. I wanted to go around and find and worship all women on their period... Being a man and having no personal experience with menses myself, I took that experience to mean that she is more than just an archetype... Kali Ma!

No Shaktimama, We will not butt heads. I have no need to change you or your opinion. In fact this thread was not even directed at you. It was a response to someone's question about the difference between Qi and Kundalini... so why you felt the need to "Butt heads" is...well, unnecessary... My beautiful, powerful sister... KAP is awesome and has helped many people. You are well respected on this board and I have no doubt you are a wonderful person, teacher and powerful practitioner... But having said that...you do not have a monopoly on Kundalini teachings, traditional or otherwise... and others will occasionally share teachings that you do not agree with. I am one of those people and you simply can't go around butting heads with everyone who has a different experience than you do... So, for you and I to have a reasonable discussion on Kundalini, we would have to FIRST agree on a definition of the word. We do not. So, any discussion would be filled with chaos and mutual misunderstanding and would be a waste of energy... Listen, I had a similar joust with Santi a couple of years ago on TTBs about the nature of the definition of Kundalini. And, after many pages of going back and forth, we decided as gentlemen that he and I simply do not agree on the same definition of the word or purpose of Kundalini. And we decided like gentlemen to allow each other to have their own opinions... I am happy to have the same deal with you, but I have no desire to engage in intellectual debates... As I have said, I have not even said whether or not I agree with this teaching. But, I do think it adds to the discussion. As I have been doing for some time now, when someone asks me about reputable kundalini teachers, I will send them to you and Santi... Blessings, to you, my sister... Keep up the good work... Mike

NO. Not even close... ALL of these disciplines move energy through centers, meridians and channels. But in very different ways and for different reasons with different results and sometimes different energies. By asking this question, you are trying to understand a supercomputer by trying to compare it to a game boy.

Excellent Point. In the Ancient Teutonic tradition, the Moon (Monne) is a male god whose name literally translates as "Mind." The English word "Man" is also from the same root word for Mind. The Sun is a female goddess called "Sowul" which is where we get the modern English word for Soul. (Interesting Side Note: Some Siberian shamans also consider the Moon to be male and the Sun female...) This is another reason why it is sometimes difficult if not impossible to simply transfer spiritual concepts between traditions. They don't always translate well.

Thanks cat, for that insight... As I put in my first post, I said that these shaiviates worshiped shakti and prayed to her... It is important to note that Shiva does not call Shakti a whore. He would never do so... When she meets him in the crown they are united. Their love is not diminished. This is not about human masculine and Feminine. If this teaching strikes some as offensive, that is because it is MEANT to do so in order to shock the person out of their self referential view of the world. This is another Tantric device to reveal our narcissism. When understood, it can bring Satori! What these Shaivites are doing is seeking to understand that THEY are the ones whoring around when they take their sights off of the ultimate goal which is union of Consciousness and Self. It is in fact quite beautiful, IMO, when looked at from distance...

First let me say that I believe it is a mistake to try and understand Indian energy concepts with the same lens that we interpret Taoist energy concepts. Yin and Yang do not directly translate directly into East Indian concepts. I tried to do this for years and was unable to do so. IMO, I think those that do try to mix them together are diluting both traditions. Having said that, perhaps one way to look at it is to look at the lava beneath the earth. We would all agree that it is fiery and still pure Earth...

Hmmm, This is only ONE traditional Indian Yogic tradition. If you don't like it, go talk to them. I am just being a messenger. I have not said whether I agree or disagree with it. I share it here to give another traditional perspective on Kundalini. In terms of a positive spin: I believe that if one can meditate on their concept of Kundalini without judging it, identifying with it, anthropomorphizing it or seeking to compete or defend against it, it can in fact bring enlightenment. That is the whole point of Kundalini practices? Yes? detachment from illusion? Identifying a centuries old, traditional tantric shakti sect from India as being patriarchal is in fact bringing Western cultural prejudice and imposing it onto an Indian concept. As for me, I'm not blaming anything feminine. If you have done ANY investigation into what I teach you will find that the feminine is the FIRST thing I introduce my students to and is the basis of what I teach... But the fact that you have taken this teaching personally tells me that you may not have read the thread carefully or with detachment... One aspect of Tantric mysticism that many Westerners do not seem to understand is that EVERYTHING including all the gods, goddesses are seen as projections of the self. Anytime anyone worships any being or concept as being something other than their own projection, they are in fact trapping themselves within their own illusory psychological projections. One of the goals of tantric practices is to understand this while engaging in it. To say that Shakti goes where She will, in terms of traditional Tantric teachings is to capitulate to one's own ego and choose to be ruled by one's servant. The highest tantric understanding of Shakti is achieve a state of detached enlightenment to say, "Shakti is me and She goes where I will." If someone does not understand that this is the goal, then, In traditional tantric understanding, they are trapped in their own delusion and are worshipping their own ego and in fact are seeking to be trapped by it.... Again. I am not saying whether or not I agree. This is traditional tantric understandings of Shakti...

Dude, she's just trying to tell you to leave her alone. She doesn't want to discuss religion with you. Put your religion cap down and just be a nice guy and don't talk to her about buddhism... Is that so hard?

It is not uncommon for people to intermix these terms and most people have that understanding and are able to operate from this perspective. There is certainly nothing wrong with it as long as everyone is in agreement. But in traditional circles, these terms are not interchangeable and have very specific meanings. For some traditionalists, this intermixing of terms is seen as having the effect of diluting and diminishing the power and sacredness of the terms and disciplines they come from... But, at the same time, they are just words.... And if it works... But at some point perhaps it is also a good thing to research these terms in their original context...

And now we get to the difference between Kundalini and Qi energies. (I know that a few will vehemently disagree with me here but... This is a result of a difference in definition of the word kundalini. Anyone who believes that kundalini is an energy like Qi has a different definition of kundalini than I do.) By my understanding from my yogic teachers, Kundalini is not a palpable energy. It is the spiritual personality that has been formed by a person's karma and is the spiritual ego that gives life to their human self. Once it has been burned away, the person is liberated. So, you don't want MORE kundalini, you want less. By the way, many yogis both in the West and in India still do not understand what Kundalini really is which is why this misunderstanding is continually promoted...) Kundalini does not liberate you it CONFINES you to your earthly ego... You want less kundalini not more... As I was taught, Kundalini is not the bubbly, tingly energy that people feel when they do qigong or some yoga practices. Kundalini is Fire because it is the spiritual ego purifying itself, releasing karma of past lives to free the soul from rebirth. Kundalini Ma is the mother of the personality who resides within the spinal column. Kundalini is Fire. In yoga, the feminine is pure earthly fire. This fire is the Fire of the spiritual personality in the person. The Chakras are not like dan tiens. They are not energy centers that can be opened for energy cultivation. when people meditate on the chakras, all they are doing is concentrating on certain meridians and concentrating prana or qi in that area. You cannot open the chakras by meditating on them. This is a complete misunderstanding of what chakras are. Chakras can only be opened by maturing on a psychological level. The chakras open when a person has learned life lessons that change their perception. No amount of concentration on a bodily area can do this. Only acts of consciousness that release karma can do this. The Chakras are gateways to psychological realms. When the granthis (knots) are released and the chakras opened, the individual matures on a psychological level. Any energy manifestations or siddhis that manifest from this are purely karmic in nature. They are releasing latent karmic talents and also karmic challenges. What many people call Kundalini syndrome is not a direct result of kundalini. Many times it is not kundalinin at all. It is from Qi or prana stuck or overloaded in the nervous system and tissues. Many who suffer from kundalini syndrome could actually benefit from medical qigong treatments. For anyone to claim that their kundalini is fully awakened does not understand what kundalini is or they would never make such claims. For anyone to have their kundalini fully awakened would mean that they have burned through ALL of their karma and no longer need to be reborn. The real state of this is that they cease to exist on the physical level. Even the avatars, like buddha, rama, krishna etc... brought some karma with them or they would not have been able to incarnate in the first place... No one can transfer their kundalini to someone else. This is like saying you are transferring your karma to someone else... If energy is being transferred through shaktipat, it is not kundalini. And if it were kundalini, you sure as hell don't want it, because now you would have taken on someone else's karma. So, obviously the Universe does not work this way. So, whatever is being transferred through shaktipat is not kundalini. It is something else. It may help an individual with their karma, but karma cannot be given or taken away. It can only be burned through by each individual. The universe does not give anyone a free pass. You MUST work through your own karma. So, the whole new age idea that Kundalini can be cultivated like Qi is a complete misunderstanding of what kundalini is. every one has only the kundalini that they bring with them. All that can be done with kundalini is to awaken what you have through the actions you take in life and then burned away. When Kundalini reaches her mate Shiva, she is absorbed into him and they become pure spirit. This is the goal in kundalini yoga: to awaken her only to free her by satisfying her desire to be reunited with her husband of pure consciousness which is Shiva. One other thing I will say which will no doubt piss some people off. If you are worshipping kundalini, you are worshiping your own ego. This is one way to appease it so it can be released, but if you worship it as a god that exists outside of you, you are making your own ego GOD and strenghening it. any energy or power you get is a result of your ego getting more powerful... Just another reminder that personal experiences of any nature can be an illusion. Tao is about powerlessness. Kundalini is about power.... If you know this going into it, and you understand that you are releasing your ego by satisfying it, THAT is true kundalini yoga. But, if you are getting a rush from the power of kundalini, you are strengthening your own ego and tying yourself down with fire of ego and adding to your karma. To prove what I am saying, just compare how western kundalini junkies brag about their kundalini experiences as opposed to some other masters who downplay their energy experiences and focus on harmonious living... This is not to say that kundalini is not a path of liberation for some people, but if so, it is because their challenge is to work through ego and release it. I tried this path and for me, it was a disaster. My ego is way out of control and I need water because I cannot resist the temptation of ego power. For those strong souls who choose the fire path, my hat is off to them... So, before people start frothing from the mouth with anger, remember that what I am really doing here is challenging peoples' definition of the word Kundalini. I am NOT challenging peoples' energy experiences. I have no wish to deny anyone their spiritual experiences. I am however expressing a difference of opinion on WHAT kind of energy they are experiencing. I wouldn't call it kundalini. You however can call it whatever you want... But, watch how uncomfortable some will get if I say their energy experience is not kundalini and we will see how important it is for some to call it kundalini and attach all the new age definitions of enlightenment that people give to this word... instead of just simply qi or prana experiences... OK.. let the maelstrom of angry dissent begin!

Aha! See? That is very valuable information that completely changes my impression of you. You should definitely list that info on your site and include a personal history like you did here briefly. People will need and want to know as much info about you as they can before they choose you as their healer... If you can get some written endorsements by Vaj or the other instructors or even fellow students who have experienced you, I would put those on your site also. Just as an observer, even if it IS true, for the sake of success in your business, I would still suggest that you dial back the "master" title. It is not necessary and will likely drive people away instead of attract them. As far as I know, I have not heard Vaj or shaktimama claim mastery. If you are their student and you claim mastery, it seems... confusing... If you stay humble and share that you have a gift without quantifying it, I think you will get more clients and be able to help more people. But, definitely you need alot more content on your site. The more people can read, see and hear of you, the better they will respond. You might want to take a look at other healers' websites to see what kind of stuff they have in order to give you more ideas... Good luck!

Interesting. I have never heard of someone being struck by thunder. Would you explain further what that actually is... So, Phore, I fully support your desire to help others as a healer. I have no experience in the specific traditions you mention so this is just my observations as a fellow practitioner. I encourage you to continue your endeavors, so take my suggestions in the light I am giving them. I would caution you against a couple of things: You refer to yourself as a "master" of qigong. It is extremely rare that anyone could achieve complete mastery of any qigong method in only 7 years. So, this may raise some doubts on your claims from some of your potential clients. For the title of Master, people are going to want to know how you achieved that title, what living master you personally and physically trained under and when you were given that title by your teacher. And if the Tien Tao Qigong method you mention is the same one that I think it is, (correspondence course) without specific info on your lineage and teacher, this sounds like a self-imposed title after learning from some books. Perhaps you completed the entire correspondence course and so you mean you have finished that aspect of training? If my understanding is not accurate, then if you want to be taken seriously by your clients, I would suggest listing who your teacher that you trained with in person who was in that lineage that has given you the title of master... You also claim to have "fully awakened" your kundalini. This is also a very bold claim. It usually takes many years, even lifetimes of diligent practice under the direct, physical guidance of a master to fully awaken kundalini, this implies having reached enlightenment. This claim will also raise doubts... Unless you are simply stating that you have had some awakening experiences with your kundalini which is more common, but not actually having "Fully awakened" kundalini. You also have connected your qigong training to Kundalini. Qigong is not focused on kundalini. While I understand that many people use and understand the word Kundalini in a general sense of "life force energy", the fact that you lump this word onto taoist practices also tends to indicate to me that you may not completely understand the meaning of this word or the distinction between Taoist and Yogic practices. Vajra Yoga does imply lightning and kundalini, but you have not listed your particular lineage in that tradition or who your teacher was. This is a somewhat ambiguous term because it could either imply a traditional tibetan lineage, but there are also lots of storefront yoga studios that teach some mild meditation and hatha yoga that is called "Vajra Yoga." And there is a world of difference between these two... Now, Assuming what you write is actually true, if you are looking for potential clients, then you are going to need to provide some detailed history and list your teachers and how it is you achieved such a high status. Basically it would mean that you need to explain how you became this energetic wunderkind to achieve complete mastery in these disciplines in such a short time... Even if it IS true that you are a fully enlightened master, you might consider at least feigning some humility for the sake of your clients who will probably be more open to you if you simply stated that you had been practicing energy work for 7 years without making these claims of mastery. I myself have only met two people who openly claimed to be energy masters, but they could prove their claims. I have met a few others who could choose that title if they wanted, but they did not believe they had achieved mastery yet... With no malice intended, I highly doubt that you in only 7 years have achieved the same abilities that these men who had trained for decades who denied mastery have achieved... You don't seem like you are trying to deceive anyone, so that tends to indicate to me that you are sincere, but rather naive and may not have a very accurate understanding or in depth experience in these disciplines or of these terms. So, in short, my suggestion would be to either list the living masters you trained under who have certified you as a master in these traditions or perhaps rethink your status on some of your claims. As someone also mentioned, the term "shaman" has alot of baggage attached to it. I personally love the term in it's modern sense and use it alot, but I make sure that people know that I am not claiming to have trained under siberian shamans. So, perhaps a brief disclaimer that you are not a practitioner of siberian shamanism would also be a good thing... I know for me personally, I would have no problem with someone stating they had been training and practicing these disciplines you mention for 7 years who was offering distance healing and Reiki etc..., but I would have serious doubts about working with anyone claiming energy mastery in only 7 years. So, in terms of your business success, you may be more successful with some less grandiose claims... I could be completely wrong, but in the spirit of helping you succeed, I am simply stating my observations... good luck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R55e-uHQna0

Congrats Phore, Another suggestion would be to take some short videos of yourself explaining what you do or your experience and uploading them to youtube. Then you can embed your vids right onto your website. Videos help people get a feel for your personally plus it allows you to share with people from your heart which is another way to transmit your energy to people... Good luck...