fiveelementtao

Sykkel, you are mistaken on what IMAs are. There are two definitions. 1:The original definiton and 2:the popular definition and the third is the nonsense you are talking about. 1: Internal means martial arts that were invented from within (internal) china. 2 Martial arts that incorporate Qi power in their strikes, traps and takedowns. Tai Chi is an internal martial art because it was invented in China AND incorporates qi power. Here is an example of External Tai Chi Applications, ( I have no idea if this guy uses Qi power, but you can imagine the effectiveness if qi is also applied in these applications) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

Oh... I didn't realize that this whole time you wanted to fight me. LOL I misunderstood you... No thanks, I have had my share of challenges. I'm too old for that now... I was under the impression you truly wanted to know if IMA's existed or not. If that were the case, then I am telling you that no IMA masters will answer any "Demo Match" challenge nonsense. Now, that may prove to you that they don't exist. That may be because according to your values, anyone who doesn't answer to public challenge matches must be a coward. This is western thinking. Chinese thinking is different. If you are truly serious and want to see if they exist, I told you exactly how to find them. If you choose not to do that, then I can only assume that you are not serious or are you are a typical westerner who feels such a sense of entitlement that you expect everything to come to you according to your terms...

OK sykkel if you are serious... Go to chinatown in Honolulu and spend some time looking for the Martial arts clubs (not the big schools) Ask around for the traditional chinese martial arts. And be prepared that they will not be easy to find. Go to these guys and ask for a lesson. The idea of wanting to prove oneself in public is a western concept. The chinese concept is very different. The real masters won't come looking for you, you have to go looking for them....

I don't know why people have associated me with empty force stuff. I don't do that. I have never seen any of that stuff work either. I practice a very practical striking martial art. Listen... Qi work is an integral part of all truly authentic Chinese styles. Some are good, some are bad and within each system, there are good practitioners and bad practioners. any fithting style is only as good as the person using and combined with their commitment. Sloppy, I assume you are saying that there are people looking for a real Internal Art. There is a difference between the commercialized martial arts and the hidden stuff out there. IME, the real masters won't try and prove themselves in public and will rarely teach anyone the real thing. But, if you are saying this because you are honestly looking for a real effective internal art, then my suggestion is to make to committment to look earnestly for it. That may mean years of traveling and searching. Unlike commercialized MA's it will not come looking for you. When and if you find the real thing, you will know why it is not very well known. BUt, if you make to commitment to search it out and find it, you will. If however, like many Westerners, who want things handed to them, they will have to be satisfied with pay per view octagon...

Y'know... I don;t like where I have taken this thread... My apologies. I should have known better.

I completely agree. If someone wants to experience real internal martial arts, the best place to look is for the "village styles." that haven't become commercialized yet.

In most cases, I believe you are absolutely correct. IMO and IME there are very few well trained internal martial artists. Can I pick the IMA fighter for you?

In your opinion, possibly in your experience. My personal experience says otherwise. exactly my point from the beginning.

What is your point? I never called it a system... what perceived threat are you trying to defend against here? I have said repeatedly that MMA is very effective... My only point is that it is not invincible. What does that have to do with whether or not MMA is or is not a system? Again my only point was that I do not believe the blanket statement that a BJJr will beat a striker "every time." What about that statement specifically do you want to argue with me about?

Threatened some sacred cows did I? I suggest that before flying off the handle read my post again in context. My quote about not wanting to roll around on the ground in an alley fight was a direct quote from my BJJ instructor friend. (who by the way is also a special forces marine). He was the guy who constantly warns his students that BJJ in terms of street self defense is only a tool. according to him, BJJ on the ground in the street against a guy with a knife or someone who bites, scratches, fishhooks, multiple opponents, etc... is not invincible. I am not trying to discredit or discount BJJ and MMA. My input on this thread was in response to your blanket statement quote that said If you read my post I never said a BJJ fighter will never beat a striker. clearly they do most of the time. I simply was stating that I didn't agree with the "every time" quote. This is so typical of Taobums, people react emotionally and out of context. The only other statement I made was that "In My experience, most MMA, BJJ (or for that matter most external martial artists) do not know how to effectively defend against a well trained internal martial artist." And then I shared my experiences with MMA and BJJers who had zero ability to defend against me. I did not say anything else except what I myself experienced. my point exactly. A real life fight is not going to be in a padded ring. If that's all someone trains for they will get their ass kicked against a skilled street fighter who knows how to fight in HIS environment. Go into downtown L.A. with only your bjj skills and pick a fight with a group of homeboys with street fighting experience and tell me how that works out for you. You are making my point again with using the word "only." It may help. But it also may hurt you. C'mon, let's get serious.... There are very many real possibilities where wrestling a guy on the ground can get you killed if you have no other skills. Because grappling skills are very effective tools. I never said otherwise... Again I only said I did not agree with your statement that a bjjer will beat a non-grappling striker "every time." Listen, I've been around for awhile. When I was a kid, Bruce Lee came on the scene and revolutionized fighting. Everyone wanted to study karate and thought karate was invincible. Then came the "kung Fu" tv series and everyone wanted to study shao lin. Then came the gracies who kicked all the traditional Martial artists. Then came the Western Wrestlers who kicked the crap out of the gracies. The point I am trying to make is there is NO perfect system. Whoever is on top now, will eventually become too specialized and then someone will capitalize on their weaknesses. and now, today people want to worship MMA and say it is unbeatable. That is my point exactly...

It is a temple style martial art that (according to the grandmaster) was a secret style taught on one of the Taoist Mountains. According to some of my personal research, I believe the art may have connections to some very old Hakka Style Hei Kung martial arts that were incorporated into one of the "Sorcery" Taoist sects. For the reasons I stated earlier, I prefer not to mention any names. Yes, I have incorporated the martial art into my other teachings.

I would not feel comfortable giving out his name in any kind of public way. With all the crap that happened on this forum with me, max and my ex-teacher, I will not give out anyone's name on this forum again. To answer the second half of the question. I told him I would teach him if he wanted, but he seemed very uncomfortable with the Qi aspect of the art. In my experience, some guys who have done alot of training in external martial arts have a difficult time changing body habits to be able to allow energy to flow. It is a complete 180 degree shift in mentality and many cannot make this change. Instead, though what he did was to go back and study his Kali and escrima because he saw similarities in my style and those. He told me later that the experience shocked him so much that he wanted to make sure he would never be overhwmelmed by an opponent's speed again and that is why he redoubled his striking training... I understand what you mean. This was my reaction also. In each of these scenarios I mentioned, I suggested they train with me or my teacher, but they always refused. I came to find out later that it was because the type of energy they felt freaked them out. In class when newbies have come in and they feel the energy for the first time, some people have very powerful experiences. A couple times I've seen people who only got a modest jolt of energy, begin weeping etc.. One guy passed out and relived his childhood. (we thought we were going to have to take him the ER. Thankfully he came out of it.) So, I came to learn that the energy itself can really mess with peoples' view of reality. The energy of this art is wierd. there is not only very real physical pain, but because it is spirit fighting energy, many times spiritual and emotional issues are brought to the surface and this is a very strange feeling. The first time I was hit, I wanted to run out of the room screaming like a little girl. LOL I understand, this was my confusion also... I completely understand if people think I am full of it. I would have thought the same had I not experienced it myself... Some people I met did. but they were already interested in the spiritual aspect of the art. IME, people who rely very heavily on their physical strength are too freaked out by the energy. another important aspect that I didn't really mention is that the art I practice was also used for fighting evil spirits. As such, the forms when done correctly, are extremely harsh on the spirit psyche. In order to really learn the art, there can be a very devastating blow to the ego and the way one's reality is viewed. This drives 95% 0f all students away in the first week because it can be emotionally painful and frightening. Ironically, the big, tough muscly guys are the first to quit... good point. sounds like your art was very helpful in that situation. My apologies for my blanket generalized statement...

While true in many cases with normal martial artists, I would have to disagree with the "every time" quote. MMA fighters have little understanding about how to fight against a well trained internal martial artist. I have never studied any kind of grappling. One of my good friends is a Machado BJJ black belt. He's also a certified instructor of Thai Boxing, Shotokan Karate Black belt and studied Wing Chun, Kali, escrima and Jeet kun do with Dan Inosanto for many years. He is Very well respected in MMA... He goes all over the world teaching BJJ and MMA. Back when I was training every day in Internal Taoist martial arts, he saw me practicing my forms (we were roommates) he came over to me and asked to spar. (He had always poo-pood any idea of internal Qi energy.) I told him in my art, we did not spar. Nevertheless, he insisted claiming that I couldn't hurt him. I said "OK, tell me when you're ready." He adopted a defensive posture and said "I'm ready." I let loose with a some combinations on his face, head and body. I was barely grazing him but letting enough qi energy into the body shots so he could feel it. He ended up covering up in a ball saying "Ok, Ok, I give I give." He then got up and said "how did you do that?" I shrugged and said that I was just grazing him. He said "No, seriously, how did you do that? I've never seen anything like that. I couldn't do anything!" I said. "That is internal kung fu." Another friend of mine who was studying MMA a few years ago also wanted to spar with me. He was a big muscly guy who was very proud of his ability to take a punch. By then my energy had increased significantly. I told him again that in my art, we do not spar because it is too dangerous. You don't pull a gun unless you plan on shooting. he laughed and insisted that my "qi nonsense" wouldn't hurt him. I said, OK. He adopted a defensive posture and I tapped him very lightly on the forearm releasing some qi into his enormous forearm. His eyes welled up with tears, his face got very pale and he said, "no fair you hit a nerve center." I said, "yeah. I only gave you 5% energy. Wanna spar for real this time?" He declined and never asked to spar with me again. One of my senior students was meeting with me and my previous teacher and he wanted to know if my teacher thought he could beat a grappler who had him in a full naked choke. My teacher told him to put him in whatever hold he wanted. So, my student got on his back and wrapped his legs around my teacher and got in a real deep naked choke. My teacher reached back and grabbed his thigh and shot some qi into him. My student was wriggling around and screaming trying to get away but couldn't because my teacher was on top of him... Very funny... MMA is very good stuff against the average person. But, in my experience, it cannot compete with real internal martial arts. (which is not easy to find.) there is the other aspect of mutliple opponents. It is important to remember that BJJ and MMA are designed for sport matches. On the street, in an alley with lots of broken glass, the last thing you want to do is roll around on the ground. But more often than not, you are fighting multiple opponents who may be armed. In that scenario, MMA is not very effective at all. Sure you might get the first guy in a hold, but, you have no way to defend from his buddy hitting you on the head with a beer bottle...

Hi Mel, This is a very common occurrence with flash or bright lights. It is either a dust particle or most likely light refraction within the lens. That doesn't mean that something else wasn't there!

Hi YaMu, good to hear from you my brother, You make some very good points. None of which is being argued against. As I said earlier, it is not an "either/or" proposition. This is linear thinking. While he may have been doing what he was supposed to do when wrote the fictional books. He certainly was not doing what he was supposed to do when he abused his students. Nobody is trying to take away the brilliance of his writing or the influence they had. But those good points do not in any way justify the extreme abuse he inflicted on those close to him. Nor does it justify lying and manipulating people the way he did. I believe that spiritual teachers should be held to a higher standard. Brilliance is not an excuse for hurting people. This entire argument resulted from someone pointing out that Castenada was a fraud and an abuser, which prompted manitou to claim that was not true. When I chimed in to reinforce that it indeed was true, this thread has devolved into an argument about whether or not his writings whether true or not have merit. That is not the issue here. If someone wants to acknowledge that he was a liar and abusive and then talk about the merits of his work. I will stay silent... People are unconsciously making the point that "well, his writings were helpful and had merit, so let's not look at the hurt his actions had on people and on spiritual consciousness." Whatever merit his writings have do not in any way justify his megalomaniacal cult leader behavior. Having experienced teachers like that myself, I have learned how to keep the teachings that were helpful and still separate what my teachers did that was abusive. For me, it is important to point our when teachers are abusing their power, not exonerate them... P.S. I also think many arguing in favor of Castaneda may not be aware of the extreme abuse he inflicted on his students. We are not just talking about a brilliant teacher who stretched the truth to teach spiritual truth. Indeed, he did do that. On a personal level, The man was a monster and destroyed peoples lives. this of course is not the effect that he would have had on the average reader who was inspired by him.

You're talking about something altogether different. The origin of this entire argument stems from your earlier assertion that the claim that Castaneda was a fraud was untrue. Now you are saying his system is valid because it teaches many universal truths. That is different. I am not saying his made-up teachings didn't draw from valid sources. I am saying the man himself was a liar. Again, if this is about whether you personally enjoy his books and teachings, I don't think anyone is trying to take that away from you.

Actually Manitou, Some of us did already show conclusively why he was a fraud. There was no Don Juan. Castaneda made him up. But, I don't think that is the point for you. You seem to have an emotional attachment to him not being a fraud. We could argue with you all day. But if you are committed to seeing him as real, then what's the point? Nothing anybody says will change your mind... If you do even a little bit of research with an open mind, you will see he was a liar. The question is what will you do with that knowledge once you have it? Will you discard all his teachings? Will you have re-evaluate his path of "freedom" knowing he made it all up and did not follow it himself? As I understand the Path of the Warrior, it is one of impeccable commitment, not emotional attachment...

I never said that... In fact, if you go back and read my initial post on this thread, you will see I said quite the opposite... I said Stiggie, I'm surprised at you... tsk, tsk...

Well... Yes. the man lied. He wasn't consciously writing myth to heal and teach. He was falsely portraying himself as having actually experienced what he wrote about. there is a difference. As any good writer of fiction, he obviously borrowed from truth. But, as has been pointed out, many people were harmed greatly by him personally. He was an abusive, cult leader whose reputation was based on lies. That is a far cry from writers of myth who knowingly use poetic truths to teach and enhance peoples' lives... here are some examples... http://www.toltecas.com/Castaneda%20Controversies/ArticleCast.htm http://www.sustainedaction.org/Wallace_Book/Ellis%20FAQ.htm

This is not about your personal experience. That is not nor has it ever been in question. Your personal experience is valid and worthy. It is not an either/or proposition. Your personal experiences are not nullified because Castaneda lied. You can still practice his teachings and enjoy them AND he can still be a liar and a fraud. and to answer your (passive aggressive) question: No. I did not find that to be the case. I am not rejecting Castenada because I am lazy or wasn't "ruthless" enough to face myself. As I stated previously, I practiced his teachings intensely for years. Including many recapitulations. They were very powerful. However, that does not change the fact that Castaneda himself was a fraud.

Sadly, it is true. some of his followers did commit suicide after he died. I studied all of his books intensely for years and was devastated when I learned that he was a fraud. I denied it too, but I did some research and was convinced. Do some research and you will see. His books are brilliant fiction with some very beautiful, powerful and truthful concepts which if applied can help one's practice. But, he made it all up. His writings about the assemblage point and other energy concepts are his fantasy and have no basis in any real energy teachings. Try his "tensegrity" forms and you will see. Worthless. I have the videos and practiced them for a while and NOTHING. He was brilliant, but he was a complete fraud.

"most"? so some have then... OK gotta call you on this. If you are indian and have spent any time in India, you know there are multiple sects of hinduism and you know very well that there are tantric skakti worshippers and you know then that they consider Kundalini to be a form of Mata Shakti. So, now, I know you are just trying to be contrary... Time to go... bye...

Really? Its' not "True?" You mean Mata Kundalini is not a goddess worshipped in India? Listen, we are on the wrong footing here....I am not trying to state it's objective "truthfullness". You asked a question about the validity of someone's idea of Kundalini, then proceeded to shoot down every opinion that you didn't like regardless of the evidence. If you had simply stated what you FELT to be true FOR YOU based on your experience, I would have said nothing. But you asked a question about the truthfullness ( which I interpreted to mean "traditionalness") of someone's post (Who admitted they had no traditional experience in Yoga or traditional Hindu practices) In the link you posted in your question it says, I have no problem with his experiences. Everyone'e experience is "true" including yours and mine. I have not stated my personal opinion (which is different than traditional Yogic teaching) nor have I denied the "truthfullness" of your experiences or opinions. I have only stated the majority opinion of many traditional Indian Yogic masters. Listen, you probably had a really wonderful spiritual experience similar to the ones written by the person in the link you posted. and it sounds very important to you to refer to it as kundalini. So, go ahead. I have no need to read the book you mentioned. I'm sure it is a wonderful book. But when it comes to traditional Indian beliefs, I prefer to stick to the sources like the vedas, the tantras, the Gita, the ramayana etc... I think you will find it is much more enjoyable to simply enjoy your spiritual practices and experiences rather than try to prove their "truthfullness." Because when you do so, you are forced then to try and disporove every other belief that is different than yours... IME, whenever someone tries to prove their experiences as "TRUE" or best etc... it always ends up in pointless argument. My friend, I heartily accept your experiences as True and if you want to call it kundalini, then by all means go ahead. My opinion or the opinions of any one of the book authors you mention mean very little... Anyway, I've had enough of this thread... Good luck... Mike

My friend, if you want to raise the "traditional" argument. Your academic friends can verify that Kundalini is worshipped as a goddess. She is referred to as a goddess countless times in countless texts. She is always connected to awareness and consciousness. There is no tradition that claims kundalini is not an intelligent force. If you are talking about a force of energy that has no consciousness, then you are talking about Prana not kundalini. Physical sensations are more connected to prana than kundalini.... Vajrahridaya though coming from a buddhist perpective is also in line with Hindu tanrics in his understanding that Kundalini is directly connected to Karma and awareness. As to your second statement, according to most traditional yogic masters, you cannot manipulate the chakras. By placing your attention on any energy point will result in any number of physical/mental/emotional experiences. This is not manipulating chakras nor is it kundalini. Vajrahridaya has the traditional understanding. According to yogic masters, the only way to open chakras, is to stimulate kundalini through spiritual awareness. This is why yogis teach Bhakti (devotional) yoga, Karma yoga (good deeds) and Hatha (physical) yoga which would include any physical exercises that manipulate prana. (which is what you are refferring to). traditionally one cannot truly practice yoga (raising kundalini) without all of these aspects. When this unified approach is successful, the individual grows in awareness, the kundalini is drawn upward to the closest unopened chakra up the spine. When the individual releases karmic blockages through better understanding of the relationship of the self to the Divine, Then the chakra opens and Kundalini is attracted to it. With this understanding, what you are talking about, although a very wonderful, respectable and beautiful experience, is a physical practice stimulating prana, not kundalini....

And if I'm not mistaken, didn't you ask a question? if you already knew the answer, why bother asking? Why not just state your opinion?