fiveelementtao

TM... Slow down.... Holster that gun Annie Oakley. Read my post again. I was saying that what witch was talking about was different than what you were saying... I was not referring to you... I enjoyed very much your post my apologies for mislabeling it as Chinese folk shamanism. In no way was I attempting to insinuate that you had agenda. the agenda I was referring to was only in reference to witch's post... ... My apologies if I was not clear enough about that... thanks, I'll try and fix that...deities not diet ies... Got it... (let's hope)

Well, I have a basic understanding of Qigong and I don't know what the movements are just from reading the text. If you can intuit them, more power to you. That text was originally connected to a visual about a practice and it was assumed the reader had already been taught the practice by someone. It was not initially meant to just be read by a complete newbie to the practice. IME, certain qigong practices have very specific rules to the movement and if you don't do them properly, you can harm yourself. I'm talking from experience.... I read as many books as anyone. I also have lots of DVD's. I sell my own instructional DVDs. They are great and can be excellent introductions. I can learn alot about my own practices by watching DVD's. But I also have been trained for many years by qualified instructors so I have a frame of reference to interpret what I am watching and reading... Books and DVD's IME should not be an end in themselves. I also only use books and DVDs as supplemental introductions, I don't use them as my entire training... Yes, we are all beginners and newbies, including myself. My apologies if I have offended you or if you feel I have implied you are inferior in any way. My only desire is to help. IME, for those truly interested in learning Taoist energy techniques a teacher is essential. Without a teacher, IME, one can only go so far... If your experience turns out different than mine, I shall seek you out as a teacher.....

Duuuude...you can make huge energy gains if you only ejaculate twice a month... Seriously man, dump the retention nonsense. Your fear of losing energy is ill founded and coming from faulty information. Taoism is about living naturally. If you have no teacher, you have no business trying any advanced energy work... However, I still think if you want to find a teacher, you can....Be persistent and patient, until then, just try to be natural... Sincerity is the first step in taoist training. the second step is to observe nature and try to live as naturally as you can... If you learn these first two steps, once you do find a teacher, you will have a huge head start.

TM, I enjoy as always your posts but I think Witch is describing something different than folk shamanism here... On the whole, witch I disagree with the basic premise of your thinking. IME, There is a difference between listening and interacting with one's guides or angels, protective spirits etc.. and communing with disembodied spirits... You are arguing from an assumption that people have a fundamental need to have "exchanges" with disembodied spirits that have an agenda. I think this reflects a personal bias on your part. We have discussed in previous threads how you have a personal desire to to commune with spirits rather than people. Your post seem s to me to reflect this personal bias. IME and IMO Communing with lower disembodied spirits is a drug. It does nothing but encourage unhealthy dependance and ultimately drains us of power... This again reflects an assumption that everyone has to deal with intrusive entities, so it's just easier to learn to live with it. I think this is just your personal experience...My experience is very different. If someone has disembodied's following them around that is not normal. IMe, Once anyone realizes that seeking an exchange with a disembodied entity is co-dependent and an excuse to divert oneself from their feelings, and is willing to move past that stage in life, the enities not only leave, they flee in terror... There may be an initial struggle as the individual struggles with their own resistance and addiction to the entity, but once that shift has been made and the individual seeks to face their issues, usually with professional help, entities are never a problem again. What kind of entities are we talking about? Spiritual guides, guardian angels, higher teachers etc... IME, these types of spirits have no agenda or need to "exchange" with us. They are only here to help us and have no need for us to even recognize or acknowledge their presence. That isn't to say that we can't communicate with them, but their involvement in our lives is only to help and they need and want nothing from us..... Energetically, IMO and IME, no human needs to exchange anything with outside entities. If we are connected to ourselves and to Spirit,we have all of Infinity within us and have access to all of the Universe. Dieties are a slightly different matter. Dieties seem to exist outside of us but are really just projection of the cosmos within. Like the Five elements: they can be worshipped or merged with like dieties but they are also parts of us. They are not outside of us and whatever sacrifices we give them are really things we need to balance and strenghthen ourselves internally. IME, Entities roaming around looking for a human to attach themselves to are always entities disconnected to the Source. Whatever "information" they pretend to offer is B.S. Their only intention is to steal your energy.

There is also no mention of what exactly the movements are... I agree that without actual instruction this kind of post can be deceiving. Unfortunately alot of newbies on this forum will try to copy what is written rather than use it as an encouragement to find real instruction...

I have to agree Taomeow... All worthy subjects for their own thread. Not particlularly relevant to the topic at hand. I for one would be very interested in reading about these subjects in their own context instead of arbitrarily squishing them into other topics.

Absolutely! The children always reflect the unconscious of the parent. Many times when exorcists are called in to deal with a poltergeist, it is found that the enitity is actually a manifestation of the Parent or the child's unconscious unresolved issues manifesting in physical form... When the person with the issue deals with their issues, the manifestation disappears. In all cases, all entity "invasions" are a result of unresolved emotional issues. If the parent faces their issues, their children will be safe. If the children are being harrassed, it is because the parent is not totally honest with themselves. In fact the Children will manifest problems before anyone else in the family because theya re the most open to spiritual phenomena. It is the parents' responsbility to make sure they have their spiritual and pyschological houses in order, because they are responsible for the psycholigial states of the children. For a parent to blame an outside source for their childrens' entity problems shows a lack of understanding of their roles as parents... I'm not saying that all demons are only in our mind. There are nasty spirits in the world just as there are nasty people, but unless we open the door consciously or unconsciously by not taking responsibilty for own psychological houses, NO entity internal or external can harm us. I would think this would be obvious to all taoists who choose to follow the path of self responsibilty. IME and IMO, there is no room for victims in Taoism...

No. I do not teach Kunlun in my videos. That is Max's practice. The activation posture is a very simple standing posture to open the meridians in the arms and torso. It is very similar to other types "empty" postures in other schools. The main focus of the DVDs in grounding, balance and healing. It is an activation of your own energy. It has no lineage transmission. believe that transmissions are very good things, but should be done sparingly and only reserved for serious lineage students or apprentices. definitely not something I would do on a DVD.

Thanks scotty for the cool graph... Yoda, my brother.... I fully support your move to Mak's teaching. It clearly is helping you and many others. But, let's be honest, you are being very selective in your facts based on your own personal agenda... The early morning hours before sunrise are optimal meditation hours in all meditative traditions. That includes "Classical Taoism" Yoga, Tantric buddhism. Christianity etc... To say that because Kunlun is best practiced at these times makes it a "ghost" tradition is irresponsible and shows your own personal bias. I am not trying to minimize your problems that you encountered with Kunlun. It clearly was not right for you... But to project your own personal experience on to everyone else based on you is narcissistic and immature. From what I have come to know of you, you are better than that... There are other viable explanations. Many more of us have had ZERO enitity problems. I myself meditate and practice at this time every morning. I know you are not suggesting that I worship ghosts... It is also well known that these early morning hours are the best for contacting the higher guides and dieties.

Many Internal martial arts and moving qigong methods, including Tai Ji and others will automatically set the orbit going. The orbit is a natural occurence in all people. Do not force energy ever... While the sitting orbit is integral to many systems, it is not necessary to do a sitting meditation to get the orbit going. Visualization is a part of many systems of nei kung so visualization is not a problem. The problem is when someone tries to FORCE energy movement through vizualization or breath. Many newbies (especially if they are trying to learn from a book) will force the energy... But I do agree that if one is interested in doing the microcosmic orbit, I would seek out a qualified teacher. I would also agree that it is best to FIRST learn a physical Qigong form or internal martial art from a qualified teacher before starting any advanced sitting Nei Kung method like the orbit. Do not try and learn any advanced Nei Kung method by yourself from a book or a video. Find a teacher.... Most of the questions newbies ask on this forum can easily be answered if you have a teacher....

Gjeken, Inedible and others who have emailed me... Kunlun is a safe practice. However, it is VERY powerful. If anyone who has practiced kunlun stopped because the practice was becoming overwhelming, I have some suggestions to help. 1st) If you have the Kunlun book, practice the Five Element Standing postures. If you are a kunlunie and don't have the book, get it... Those Five postures are extremely important. They will strengthen your nervous system, balance your internal organs and prepare your spirit for the more advanced Mao Shan techniques. ( RP and Yi Gong) 2nd) Do the Golden flower meditations. Originally, (or so I've heard, check with Max for confirmation) these meditations were done for one year at a time for each dan tien (or maybe it was Three...) Work on the Lower Dan Tien posture and meditation for awhile to help ground you. 3rd) The Yi Gong (spontaneous) exercise is very healing, purifying and powerful. However, it is imperative that one have a healthy respect for the technique and not use it as just a way to get high or "bliss out." the bliss is not a drug. If someone abuses the practice in an attempt to escape feelings, the practice will have a backlash effect, because the whole point of the exercise is to help you become more conscious. So, if someone is using it to escape, (unconscious) they are in effect at cross purposes with themselves. So, if you are worried because you have felt overwhelmed by the practice, then simply reduce the time you practice the spontaneous (Yi Gong) and INCREASE the amount of time you practice the postures and golden flower. 4) After using the postures and golden flower to strengthen, ground and prepare your nervous system and psyche, then ( when you feel ready) you can reintroduce the Yi Gong and RP in small doses. As you become stronger, you can increase the time in the advanced techniques. During times of rapid growth, slow down or take a break. But also know that part of the process is to work through the emotional and psychological issues that come up. This should be understood beforehand. No one should attempt this practice if they do not understand that this process will clean you out. If you are not ready for it, don't do it. If you are looking for instant enlightenement, don't do it. if you are looking for powers, don't do it. So, I also recommend that you work with a counselor or spiritual advisor on a regular basis... This is essential. I have been practicing Mao Shan for almost 20 years and I speak with a counselor or spiritual advisor at least twice a month. More if I have a growth episode... The more advanced techniques, (RP and Yi Gong) have become the focus of Kunlun but they are only part of the whole system. But remember there was a reason these things were kept secret. Here is a portion of a thread from Max's forum My blessings to all. Mike

My experience is that we can be in both states at once. Time as we know it is part of 3 dimensional created existence. It is the matrix which allows us to play this video game called life. Your spirit is beyond time and space. If you operate from your spirit you can go beyond those limitations. So, IME, don't expect your physical senses or your mind to go beyond time, because mind and body are part of the matrix. Your spirit is able to go beyond it. So, the real task is to use your practice as a way to go beyond your mind. the problem is you can't use your mind to go beyond itself. This is the major puzzle of spiritual work.

Yes I agree. Closedown is the easiest part of any practice. So, there is no reason to leave it out. It is also the most important because it is during the closedown that one actually harvests the energy they have created. For someone to imply that it is OK to skip the closedown for any reason, does not understand their practice or how Qi behaves. If any have doubts about this, next time you do a closedown, try and feel the energy actually penetrating deep into the tissues. You won't get that feeling of deep cleansing and transformation without the closedown. What's the point of planting the seeds, watering the plants, fertilizing if you are not going to harvest the crops? In a way, energy work without a closedown is like spending all year planting a crop and then simply choosing not to harvest them... What a waste of time and energy...

Hi Hagar... I'm assuming you're talking to me and not New Dawn. Yes I am in Boise, ID...

Hissing is the metal sound. Metal is the element for fighting demons. Metal slices through illusion. Sword fingers can be used to dispel demons. Yes, stare it down...call on your spirit guides for courage and help. In Spirit fighting we hiss alot. So, hissing with sword fingers can help. We have a spirit fighting mudra in Mao Shan. Any kunlunies who want to learn it, contact me... Those in contact with Max, ask him to teach "the Mao Shan Salute" it is a demon fighting mudra. It's actually a short form... I won't teach it unless you are my student or in my lineage (i.e. Kunlun).... If you do that to each of the eight guas (directions) in a clockwise fashion starting in the north, it will cleanse a space and frighten away any nasties... For any of my students who have my DVD, do the Yin yang hands in each of the eight directions clockwise starting in the North. (direction of the Dark Warrior, general of all Spirit Fighters...) Level II DVD which I am almost finished with has a another version of yin yang hands which can be used to dispel nasties also...

I have written at length about this issue in another thread. I will try to get to the point succinctly. As a child, I suffered from demonic oppression. As a result, I am an exorcist. I have over 30 years experience dealing with nasties. I am also a kunlun practitioner and I also practice Mao Shan Shamanic Demon Fighting Kung Fu which is from the same lineage as Kunlun. I am also in the same Mao Shan Lineage as Max, the founder of Kunlun. So, I believe I have a very good idea of what is happening here... Here is my opinion based on my experience with Mao Shan, Kunlun and fighting demons.... (ahem)...There are both internal and external demons. They are both real. However, they all have one thing in common. They are connected to our unresolved personal unconscious fears and issues. It is impossible for anyone who aggressively faces and releases their unconscious/subconscious emotional issues to be harmed by demons ( internal or external). Humans are an expression of the highest form of spiritual energy and if we are successfully practicing a spiritual path that emphasizes honest self examination, you are completely protected. Demons will run from anyone who is unafraid to face all their issues. If someone has demon problems, there is no escaping the real cause. unresolved emotional and psychological issues create holes in our aura. Now we all have unresolved issues on some level. So, I do not mean the average run of the mill unresolved issues. I am talking about issues that are aggressively denied and buried... These are issues that someone has buried deep within their psyche for many years, possibly from early childhood. The Universe is constantly pushing us to face our issues. This is our Karma. We have incarnated on this planet to deal with these issues. If we continue to choose to bury our fears, desires, anger, pain etc... This sends out an energetic frequency that acts like a homing beacon to nasties. External demons are similar to our unconscious emotional issues, because demons are spirits that have chosen not face the Light of Spirit. As such, they are cut off from the Source and need energy. So, when a human has serious unresolved issues, they are unconsciously seeking someone or something to relieve them of their burden. If a demon who resonates with this unresolved issue, (i.e. fear, anger, lust...whatever) picks up on this homing signal, they will seek to gain energy from the individual in question. BUt there is an energetic contract that is made on an unconscious level, sometimes an open contract. The demon will offer to distract the person from their issue with: Fear, sex, delusions of grandeur, torture etc... and in return the "victim" gives the demon their energy. When the "victim" decides that they are ready to move beyond their pain, the demon will fight to keep their energy source, but if the person is ready to do whatever it takes to face their denial, the demon will flee. Exorcism rituals are excellent, but if the person does not follow through with some kind of counseling, the demon will return, because psychological patterns do not go away over night... So, in terms of Kunlun, here is my opinion: Kunlun, like all Mao Shan stuff is designed to bring your unconscious issues to the surface so that you can release them and reduce yourself to zero so that the vibrational energy of the practices can transform you to a higher level. If someone with an addictive personality or someone who is seeking powerful spiritual practices in order to escape personal pain chooses to practice Kunlun, they usually practice it very hard, this will bring their unconscious issues to the front very quickly and very powerfully. IF this is the case, this will manifest their inner issues and can possibly attract outside entitities. The reason for this is twofold: The internal and external demons are afraid of the transformational energy of Kunlun and will seek to frighten the individual into stopping the practice. If the individual is unready or unwilling to face themselves, this problem will continue until they face the issues or abandon the practice. IMO, people who are not ready to completely face themselves should either practice kunlun sparingly or not practice it at all. Energy work can be serious stuff, we need to be mature and use it for what it is meant for and not treat it like a toy.... Kunlun is a very powerful and effective practice if done with maturity and self discipline....

Hi Sloppy, You make some very good points with which I wholeheartedly agree. I did not mean to implicate that all posts were extreme. I only said some posts... I am in complete agreement with you and my experience reflects yours. I have never met any completely enlightened master. All those that have claimed total enlightenment were either frauds or self-deluded and every one of them was destructive to others. That doesn't mean that their systems or tradition wasn't legitimate. I have had to learn that it is unproductive for me to even expect perfection from a teacher. If a teacher claims to be able to transcend reality, I agree that they should be put to the test. But for me, based on my experience, a real master will never claim to be one. Or if they do claim mastery, they will be sure to quantify their status by freely admitting that their mastery is only relative to those who have trained less than they have and they will freely admit they are still learning and still an imperfect human being. IME anyone who claims otherwise is a fraud or deluded. I have also had to learn that energy powers are not a sign of enlightenment or ultimate mastery. I have trained with masters whose energy skills were legendary, but their emotional and psychic maturity was definitely lacking. So, even though I believe there have been fully enlightened masters on this earth and there very well may still be, I am of the belief that they will stay hidden. I have also found that it is possible to learn from ethereal masters while also learning from a human source. I have found that if I keep this perspective, I will know whom I am meant to learn from and with whom I do not need to study. But to expect to find a perfect master, IMO and IME is unreasonable and hinders my growth... As a teacher, I often run into students who want to deify me. I have decided that if I see this trait in a student, I may consider terminating their training, because, even though I make every effort to explain to them, I am only a human, they will still want to project their fantasy onto me. This makes it very difficult to teach them because at some point I will dissapoint them and then the real teaching begins. Because, at that point, the student will have to make a decision as to what is more important: Their desire to be saved or their commitment to the discipline. When the student decides that the art is more important than I am, then I can really start teaching them, because their focus will be to learn the art and not on me...

After your energy work, bring hands to navel (Lower Dan Tien) breathe deeply and allow the energy to spiral into your navel. Then finish your routine with self massage... mZOqPwSl2EE&feature

Closedown is essential for absorbing the energy you've created. I require my students to close down. If they do not, I will expel them as students. for their own health. IME, If you do not close down, you will lose valuable Qi which will simply sit in your aura and disperse. It is also possible that Qi can get stuck and cause problems. Closedown and self massage after training is the final and most important step. IME, if you are not going to close down, you are better off not practicing. IME, any teacher that does not require a closedown, does not completely understand their art. my.02

I'm finding this thread to be extreme in some of it's posts. On the one hand you have those who want to separate teachers from human beings as though anyone under the category of teacher is Buddha or Ghandi or Jesus, as though the only teacher worthy of study is someone who has achieved the status of enlightened immortal. It seems that some who are arguing for paying teachers are people who have teachers and are studying a recognized tradition or discipline. Some who seem to be arguing for not paying teachers are those with little training and no teacher. If one does not have a teacher they are training with and requires that the only teacher they will learn from is someone who doesn't charge and is fully enlightened, that seems to set up a scenario where they never get a chance to train in Tao at all. This sets up a scenario where one can spend their whole life never taking the risk to grow beyond their current state by saying, "I wanted to learn Tao, but I couldn't find an enlightened being who didn't require any sacrifice from me." So, my feeling is that those who demand that their teacher be beyond human limitation and not require sacrifice from them as students, are really setting up a scenario where they do not ever learn. I am wondering if these people are really just afraid of the personal growth that they would encounter with a real flesh and blood teacher. I don't think the issue is about money. I think it is about fear. Fear of growth. If you are studying a legitimate discipline, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, a teacher will force you to grow beyond your current state... I'm still looking for the enlightened master to teach me. I haven;t found one yet. They have all been human on some level. Some more than others, but all very human. What I have come to learn is that the human teacher is only a gateway to the immortals on the ethereal plane. If you find a real tradition, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, the immortals on the ethereal plane will teach you. The ancestors are your real teachers, you show your commitment to learning by respecting the imperfect human teachers they bring you. That's been my experience anyway... Blessings to all seekers... I encourage all to take the risk and train with a real teacher in a real tradition... May you find what you are looking for...

Very true, I am somewhat aware of the conspiracy to demonize hemp in the early 20th Century in order for certain individuals to supplant hemp products for timber products. (Something like that right?) And I have no doubt that the medical and pharmaceutical industry would love to keep MJ illegal in order to keep a monopoly on the medical uses of MJ. I would be very interested in hearing about more about that. Nilo, my brother, I have nothing against you. I understand your feelings and I support you in having them. I am sorry for any offense I have given you. In terms of my extremist views...I have been very clear that I have no problem with MJ use on any level, whether that be for personal or medical use or whatever... I believe it should be legalized. My reaction was to those including you who have tried to use this forum to force your personal agenda on others that MJ is good for QI cultivation. And when you have been presented with firm evidence to the contrary from reliable sources, instead of responding with honest curiosity to examine your views or their consequences, your response is to say that you do not recognize any authority other than yourself and insist your MJ use helps your Qi cultivation. So, Your response isn't logical... So, if you feel you need to publicly prove that your frequent MJ use IS good for your Qi cultivation against mountainous evidence to the contrary, I would say that your position may be the extreme one... My response isn't about your personal use... Smoke as much as you want, bro... More power to you... And if people want to smoke MJ and cultivate, that is their right, but I do feel it is important that people know what the very real negative side effects are. Wouldn't you agree that everyone should have the opportunity to make choices based on complete and reliable information? Look, I have addictions too. I love chocolate, sugar and other unhealthy foods. I choose to indulge those desires knowing the negative side effects, but I don't come on here and try to convince everyone that eating chocolate is good for qigong or meditation... So, even though you may be angry with me for not co-signing your agenda, it's not personal. My desire is that everyone including you find health and happiness.. Peace...

Taomeow, my sister... In general, I agree with what you wrote. I don't see the grand conspiracy connection. But if you feel that way, then feel free to argue those points. I do feel strongly about drug addiction. and I am comfortable with that feeling. I have seen your intellectual argumentative skills on this board and since I have no disagreement with much of what you wrote, I AM going to pick my battles here and NOT argue with you. Peace my sister...

I also think this is a great idea!

In terms of MJ in cultivation. There is no recognized taoist body of knowledge that encourages it's use for energy cultivation. NONE. TCM is very clear about it's harmful effects. as you say..."If you can't handle that, then too bad..." But, Nilo, my brother... Don't play games with me... MJ is no more or less an expression of Tao than any other chemical including Hemlock. Do you drink hemlock too? Does that help your cultivation? C'mon dude... give me a break... Let's be honest with ourselves here... My agenda is very clear. I believe that MJ is harmful to energetic and spriitual cultivation. TCM has my back on this one. You also have a personal agenda when it comes to Pot. You are very attached to the idea that it helps you. Right? How do you know MJ has been excellent for you? What objective criteria do you cite? How many years have you been cultivating Tao and smoking pot? Pot effects your perception. If you are only using your own perception while high on pot to assess the benefits of it. Your methods are flawed. I can't say for sure, but you SOUND to me like an addict looking to justify his addiction. I would like to turn your question back to you... Why do you NEED pot so much? Look dude, I have no problem with you smoking pot every day if you want. But don't shove shit in my nose and tell me it's perfume, OK?

C'mon people... Let's stay on topic here. This thread is not about the pros and cons of the legitimate MEDICAL uses of MJ. That is a separate issue and you know it. let's not purposefully divert the issue.