fiveelementtao

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want to get F***ed by God... Maybe I'm interpreting that wrong. Drew... I challenge you to ask your teacher Chun yi lin if he thinks taking hallucinogens of any kind for cultivation purposes are a good idea... I would be very interested in his response...

Because it is well known in traditional cultures that employ powerful hallucinogens in their spiritual traditions that there is very real danger to using them. The danger is both physical and spiritual. these drugs open up spiritual gateways. If one does not know how to navigate, they can get lost. If one does not know how to deal with the spirits they can kill you, take you prisoner etc... The Shaman traditionally sometimes spends days in fasting and purification getting the PERMISSION and PROTECTION of the spirits before the ritual. And many times the Shaman will be there to protect those taking the ritual. It's not a party. It's serious business. many times he will be told by the spirits not allow certain people to partake in the ritual. So, how can someone die? The spirits can kill them. they can go crazy... If taking these drugs were so safe and easy, why do think that Master shamans are necessary? for protection. If you take these drugs out of their traditional context and use them without proper knowledge and protection they are very dangerous.

Yes, and as you know. In traditional circles... Ayahuasca is done after lengthy purification rituals which are designed to bring down divine protection. These rituals are thousands of years old and the process isstill intact.There is a huge difference between taking ayahuasca infrequenlty under the protection of a master shaman and an 18 year old kid dropping acid by himself. Any true master shaman healer will also freely tell you that if you use drugs without divine protection, you can be killed! and many times a shaman will tell someone NOT to partake in the RITUAL. You know this. This practice is well established within their culture. And as a cultivator you KNOW that these same effects can be achieved through energy practices without drugs and without any negative side effects. Drew, I know you know what facts you are leaving out. I know you know better. With All due respect... Don't BS me...

Any respected energy teacher will tell you this... energy work is about strengthening your energies through the discipline of meditation and energetic exercises. Drugs will destroy your energies and takes no discipline, thus weakening the mind,... Please take note that only younger people are recommending drugs as a viable alternative to spiritual discipline. I do not hear anyone over the age of fourty recommending drugs... I used alot of drugs as a kid. It took YEARS of hard work just to get back to normal... Go visit a 50 or 60 year old who still uses drugs, please tell me how spiritual they are. Then go find a 70 or 80 year old Taoist or Yogic master and ask how much drugs they take... Those advocating drug use on this forum are not speaking from any state of achievement. Will all love and respect, if you choose to follow the advice of people with no experience... You are responsible for the aftereffects...

I agree, sometimes what is needed is to reconfigure what is available to meet the present needs... Not bad at all...

Try Spring forest qigong. It is inexpensive. People like it. I have a DVD on my website. If you truly want to find a teacher you will. How serious are you? What REALLY is the obstacle to finding a teacher. Is it money? What city do you live in? I am certain I could type in your city and find something. Do you have a car? Can you travel? Do you have transportation?.. What is the real issue here? If it is just that you are a teenager and it is inconvenient, I understand, You may just have to be patient and save up some money and use this time to research who you want to train with. My original suggestion still stands... In prayer or meditation ask that you be guided to the teacher you are meant to train with... Listen and follow your instincts... As a teacher, I would say this is your first lesson. Follow your inner voice, listen to your guides...

Don't get rid of it. That is escapism. Make peace with it. Strengthen your spirit and make your spirit the "alpha". Ask your ego in meditation what it REALLY wants. It wants to serve your spirit. In terms of "Is this all there is?". I understand, in my tradition, this is called "returning to nothing." Ask your guides what the next level is for you and wait to see what materializes. That my opinion, based on my experience... hope it helps...

Yes, I do have a suggestion. In meditation or prayer... state your desire to find the teacher that you are meant to learn from. You don't have to go to rural china. there are teachers everywhere. For the time being, you can use books, videos etc... If you live in or near a good size city, look for them over the internet. Start a thread here saying... "anyone in my city know of any teachers?" you will get many responses.. You can go on to youtube and type in "six healing sounds" you will find many versions of them being demonstrated for you... Teachers are all around... Be willing to do whatever it takes to learn and you will find the means...

Ummm. by healing people.... I don't know I wasn't there. Look, bro, if you have an honest question, I am happy to answer if I can. But, I sense you're looking to pick a fight. If anything I have said in the past was offensive or hurtful I apologize. I have no desire to fight with you... Your criticism is well taken. You make some good points. There is a distinction between the roman tolerance for egyptian and greek religions, because the Romans felt a kinship with those religions. While it is true that the Roman Empire was tolerant of many religions, they were also very intolerant of religions or practices that they felt were a threat to the State. This included many mystical traditions. In terms of British druids, the Roman army literally drove them screaming into the Sea. It is because of the Roman army that the Druids were destroyed...Then the Romans chopped down or burnt all of the druid sacred forests. Christianity merely took up where the pagan romans left off. IMO christianity was really just an extension of the Roman mindset. I believe that Christianity was instituted as the official religion because monotheism was a great method of unifying and controlling nations they sought to conquer. So, I agree with what you have said. But the Romans also mercilessly destroyed many mystical traditions...

No. They are the same sounds. There are different variations of those sounds based on the dialect that is spoken. I always prefer to use the original. But, if you have a teacher, follow their advice. I think at this point, you may be overthinking the process. You don't have to get it perfect immediately. Do the best you can, listen to the energy and experiment. You will find what works best for you... As always, I suggest finding a teacher to guide you....

Meditation is not about "Peace of Mind" that is a western oversimplification. It is the RESULT of discipline. Hyrdo... save yourself some time... Find a teacher.... IF you are serious about learning meditation, you can find the resources to find a teacher. Don't do it alone. It is not necessary... IME, what many westerners misunderstand about meditation is that it is not an instant, magic fix. We in the west have unrealistic expectations about the immediate results of meditation. IMO in the western (especially American) mindset, this is based on a basic misunderstanding of meditation combined with a pathological desire to escape... I have never thought of meditation as a way to "still the mind" "Be at peace" etc... My teachers both yogic and taoist never stressed passive meditation. There was always a task. Whether it be just to observe the breath, count the breath etc.... Many times there was a mudra involved or a task of mudra combined with guiding the breath into different directions etc.. There was always a task... The task occupied my mind, while the energetic result of the task fed my spirit. And it was always understood that the first result of any meditation was that the unconscious, the ego, internal resistance would ALWAYS kick in and try to sabotage the process...This was expected. IME, Meditation is an art for warriors. It is not an exercise in escape or passivity. It is a process of facing oneself and one's limitations. For me, the greatest challenge is to be confronted with myself and NOT react. This is the meditation. This, for me is the greatest benefit. Because, what I gain from that is that during my day, I am confronted with situations where my lower nature wants to react and meditation gives me the ability to act from discipline. So, when I hear people complain about not being able to meditate because their ego is kicking in and making it diffiucult, I say. Of course! You're just starting to learn how to meditate. This is the first step. If you don't bump into yourself, something is wrong. When I hear people talk about wanting to be free of their ego what I hear is that they really want to be free of their self judgment. This is different than normal ego. The ego is a necessary tool. But when the spirit has been weakened or when we have been raised in a dysfunctional home or oppressive society, the ego, in an attempt to fill the void of a weak spirit becomes bloated and then becomes an internal abuser and we are filled with self-hatred and self-judgment and we seek escape from our torment. It is no accident that there are many young people on this forum who are very interested in Taoism and spirituality and ALSO drug users. This is a totally modern western phenomenon and attests to a basic misunderstanding of spiritual disciplines. In the East, it was understood that if you wanted to be a spiritual practitioner, you couldn't rely on drugs. In native cultures that RARELY use drugs, there is always a purification process and rituals for protection, because they know that drugs harm the body. We use drugs without understanding the harm they cause our bodies and our spirits... We think that meditation is like a drug. We meditate and have difficulty, so we seek stronger measure and want to use drugs to facilitate a spiritual experience. We seek escape from our internal abuser, our ego... IME, the only way ot gain the peace we seek is through the warrior discipline of meditation, not the escape of drugs. It is helpful to find a teacher... Meditation is similar to going to the gym, you understand that it will take dedication and you expect to experience resistance. You also understand that you will get stronger if you practice consistently and it will get easier. Mediators are warriors learning discipline. Taking drugs takes no discipline. It is completely passive.It erodes your strength of mind and makes one spiritually weak. If you want peace in your meditations, I suggest finding a teacher who has been in your shoes and can guide you. Most on this forum giving advice also have learned from teachers. No one whom I have met who had success in their spiritual path, did it alone. They all had teachers....

I wasn't referring to Taoist mystics. The powers I was referring to were from the guy who trained with druids. He had healing powers...

1500 years ago, according to Tao Hong Jing. (first person to write about the healing sounds) the original way of practicing the healing sounds is completely silently. He called them the six healing breaths. You think the sounds in your mind and exhale the breath as though you were going to make the sounds but allow your breath to escape very slowly so that no actual sounds escape. I have found this to be the most powerful way to do the six healing sounds...

Hi Eviander, The reason why Eastern Mysticism seems to be more powerful is that it comes from an unbroken spiritual and cultural heritage that stretches back to the stone age.... European culture and religion was destroyed by the time of the "middle ages" and replaced with Christianity. When the Roman Empire conquered Europe, it usually destroyed any pre-existing mystical traditions, then when Christian Rome sent out missionaries to outlying western Europe to convert "pagans", the Church would usually destroy or incorporate those mystical traditions. The inquisistion did much to destroy any lingering mystical traditions.. If you think about it, as a westerner, try and think as far back as you can in terms of western European history... You will probably not get further back than medieval times. The "dark ages" was the time that Europe was making the transition from pre-Roman paganism to post Roman Monotheistic Christianity. In the East, however, in India, China and Tibet. Their cultural and spiritual history is still intact all the way back to the stone age. and their mystical sciences have an unbroken history and practice dating back to pre-history. Much of modern western stuff is mostly attempts at reconstructing the old ways from scant historical evidence and a little fantasy.. So, I believe that in the west we used to have alot of mystical traditions, but unfortunately most modern druid, wiccan etc... types of traditions are modern reinventions and do not accrately reflect the original sciences... There is certainly nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel... So, who's to say? I met someone who knew someone who had trained in a druidic tradition and apparently had some pretty impressive powers...But the impression I got was that one had to apprentice with a master... so there ARE some good western systems out there. I personally didn;t find any. Too much controversy and new agey nonsense to sift through (for me). IME, a mystical practice that has an unbroken history and closely reflects ancient western (pre-roman) traditions, look into Tantric Hindu practices... Sanskrit is a very old version of the "Indo-european" language from which all of western european languages are derived. So, there is a linguistic, cultural and ethnic connection. Hindu beliefs have similarities with Ancient Celtic for example... So, the mentality of the hindus and much of the deities will be related and easily understandable by western europeans... I studied Tantric mysticism for this very reason, because I was seeking to practice the mystical tradition of my ancestors and this was the closest I could get... In the end Taoism was a better fit and alot faster in terms of my personal results... Good luck...

From what I've heard and read about Mo Pai, I would classify it as a Earth to Heaven or upward method. It is definitely a fire method. When you have packed enough Chi into the Dan Tien it overflows and moves up. This is quite opposite of a Downward, water method.

For me enlightenment is a process. IMO and IME the most enlightened that someone can be is to follow the golden rule. Treat others with compassion, kindness and love. IMO and IME you don't need Chi, or Kundalini to do this. There are plenty of people who sacrifice for the benefit of others and have no inkling of energy or mystical expereinces. Energetic disciplines are only tools. For some, energy, Chi. kundalini... can even be a huge hindrance because they use it like a drug. Enlightenment experiences (Visions, powers, dreams etc..) are utterly meaningless unless followed by permanent change in consciousness and maturity. "Temporary Enlightenment Experience" is an oxymoron. Moreover, IME and IMO anyone looking for enlightenment as one time experience that instantly and permanently changes them and relieves them of all suffering... is looking to escape. true enlightenment to me means a process of lightening the burdens of mind/ego. IME and IMO this can only happen when personal daily commitment are combined with Divine Grace.... Then, you have a daily, incremental process of enlightenment. IME anyone whom I've met who exhibits properties of enlightenment have not achieved it without years of daily practice and claim only to be human... conversely, all those that I've met or heard who claim to have achieved enlightenment have been the most selfish, destructive people I've ever met... So, in short, I wholeheartedly agree that the Western concept of immediate and painless enlightenment is a myth of our Micro wave escapist culture...

Well according to my understanding, Kundalini starts going up and then goes back down after it has reached the crown. After reaching the crown, she starts her descent she is no longer kundalini, she has merged with Shiva and is now shiva conciousness descending. I call descending energy, the Avatar energy. Avatar implies the descent of the divine... That's my understanding, but I am curious to hear others' understandings...

InShang Ch'ing Taoism, the gods can be viewed as a projection of the microsm within. For example, the word for "Tao" in Shang Ch'ing sect is "San Tao" which means "the Three Fold Path" which corresponds to the three pure ones. The three pure ones in the Macrocosm are also projections of the three dan tiens in the micrcosm. So, one very effective way to worship the Three Pure Ones is to strengthen, purify and balance the Three Dan Tiens in the Body. When one has aligned the energy centers in the microcosm (body) with the corresponding dieties in the Macrocosm (Universe) then one becomes a Celestial immortal and is transformed to a higher state of being... In the Shang Ch'ing view, the best way to worship the gods is to take care of oneself. This is the real reason for energy work in Shang Ch'ing Tao... And in answer to the question... in some sects, there is a creator god similar to the western idea of "God"...

My Friend, Meditation is not about letting go of the ego. That is the end result. It takes years of dedication. Meditation is about facing the ego and dismantling it... piece by piece. It is a western misunderstanding about meditation that one must immediately "let go" and be at peace... Do not seek to let go of your ego. Seek to make peace with it... This will not happen immediately. It takes time. I strongly recommend that you find a teacher. Very few Tao masters have ever been able to do it alone. A good teacher will help you dismantle your ego and help you find what you are looking for. But if your ego is your problem, then you are not capable of teaching yourself because your ego is involved in the teaching... If you are seeking to use acid because you want freedom from your ego, I have bad news... Taking acid will reinforce your ego thousands of times. The result may be permanent as some have already stated. But at least, you will set yourself back by many years. You cannot escape yourself. I know I sound like I am preaching. I am speaking from experience. I have been where you are. Drugs force open your energy centers and drain your glands of valuable hormones. So, the high you get is like stealing from a bank. You will have to pay it back with interest, maybe you will do some time for it. It is absolutely not worth it. Any spiritual experiences you have from drugs will be false. Once again I am speaking from experience. If you really want to learn Tao. One of the first lessons is patience and perserverance. This means you have to accept yourself exactly as you are with your ego and ADD and impatience etc... Ask for a teacher and you will find one. Be prepared to take the warrior path of facing your ego and transforming yourself... my.02.. Mike

"Strength is No Strength"

an imperceptible, slight smile will help open the heart and crown. keep that smile all day... use it as a waking meditation. If you hold that smile all day long , you will be forced to confront habits and patterns of negativity you never realized you had. As you smile, allow the heart energy to move down to the dan tien. Can't force it... Let it dissipate on it's own... That's my experience anyway... Hope it helps. IMO the imperceptible all day smile meditation is the key to energy mastery... Hey, maybe, I should write a book about it and make millions!!!(said jokingly but now I am seriously considering it...)

Pai just means "school" or "style" so Hua Shan Pai means Hua Mountain style, referring to the style of Qigong practiced by Hua Shan Taoists... Not too shabby.... Let us know how you like it...

Hi Scotty, As always I appreciate your kind manner. I appreciate your experience. What you say may be true for some. (I was actually in the midst of starting a new thread concerning the mixing of KL and other traditions.) I would agree that IF it is possible to mix the two it would have to be done very carefully. But, I had always been told by my teachers not to mix it with kundalini, Max has expressed warnings about mixing traditions and transmissions. My experience with almost 20 years of Mao Shan Spirit Fighting has shown me that it is disastrous to mix them. (I didn't think so for many years.) It may just be that it won't mix with Spirit Fighting or it may be that it doesn't mix with Mao Shan at all and doesn't become apparent until higher levels... I don't know. But I can say with all confidence, Kundalini should NOT be mixed with Spirit Fighting... No way!!! So, my experience is heavily influenced by my Spirit Fighting training. That stuff is the most potent energy I have ever felt. In the beginning I was able to mix my spirit fighting and kundalini yoga, no problem, but as I was getting to the higher levels of SF (which among other things, opens up the higher centers) the two energies would not mix. AT ALL... I have some different ideas than you of what heaven to earth means but my views are instrinsically connected to the necessary SF mind set... But, it is possible approach KL differently from a purely meditative viewpoint. SF is a very ruthless mindset...So, you have your experience, so I can't speak about that... And it may be right for you... So, I don't wish to minimize your understanding... So,I could go into more detail but, I'm sure it would bore and annoy most everyone else... But I also sense that you have an emotional attachment to mixing the two and even though I honestly feel differently than you do based on my experience, if mixing is something you want to do and are not asking my opinion... It makes no sense for me to try and convince you otherwise. I am just trying to help others avoid the pain I have had to go through in healing myself... You may be right that for you KL can be merged with Kundalini stuff, but I would still keep on eye on it and see what happens in a few years as your KL energy increases.... my .02 take it for what it's worth... Mike

Hi Markern, You make some good points. This thread and the kundalini thread has allowed me to really work through alot of my thoughts about my experience with mixing traditions, so I am glad about it. It seems that alot of taoist traditions do work well with yogic ones on some levels. My experience may be unique because the Mao Shan stuff is very unique even among taoist traditions. So, even though I still think that Kundalini based work has a different purpose than old school taoism, I must admit that I can't really speak for all other taoist traditions. It seems to me there are alot of fire based, bottom up taoist practices that probably are very compatible with Kundalini based stuff. So, I am going to officially retire from this debate and only share what I know from my tradition...