fiveelementtao

Yeah, but he didn't know you were coming... I did...Besides, I was trying to show you I was nice...It took alot of effort to holster my light saber when I knew you weren't really trying to hurt me. But, you still didn't answer my question... Why do I scare you? If you don't answer I'll assume it's because you don't want to be mean and I'll let it go... I'm very sensitive to energetic feel copping, so I may be different than most guys. I'll bet most guys would either like it or not even know what was happening or even care. Some might just feel more relaxed after. So, my apologies again, I did not mean to insult... But based on what I felt, I am either very sensitive to that or methinks you underestimate your powers in that regard...

Glad he's my friend! Thanks Witch... Yes, I am working to balance my yin. The reason I constantly bitch about the dangers of mixing kundalini with Mao Shan is because I am still working to reverse the disastrous overheating that resulted from it along with the damage of Chia style retention practices. I would love to know why...If it won't hurt my feelings, of course... (as you know, us boys are actually very fragile under our armor) BTW, when I said you could feel my energy, I didn't realize it meant you were gonna climb into my nutsack! I just thought you were going to sniff my aura or something. When I felt a very strong sexual energy coming at me through my sexual center, I didn't know if it was a succubus or not So, I quickly put on my spirit fighting armor. My aplogies if I scared you off. Ya Mu, one of these days I hope to get a chance to meet you and pick your brain (or spirit) about healing... Thanks 3bob for this... Nice to be reminded that it's not about just playing with energetic toys but about reaching our highest potential and allowing the Universe to guide us in our our individual way...

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Immortal sister, I agree with you that for most people, Hatha Yoga and Tai Chi are very complementary... No, I didn't think that you were practicing kundalini yoga. But kundalini is central to all schools of yoga. Hatha yoga does stimulate kundalini, but it does so very slowly. In India, Hatha and Kundalini yoga were originally linked practices. Back in the day, The practice of Yoga was not as widespread as it is today. Yoga has split into many schools, but way back when, it was a complete science with many levels, Hatha yoga being the introductory level. ( by the way, the vast majority of yoga taught in the west is hatha yoga regardless of the name. Ashtnga, bikram etc... most of it is still Hatha.) but back then...If someone wanted to be a yogi, (Someone who sought Union with the Divine) that person had to find a Guru and ask to be accepted as a disciple. The first thing that person was taught was Hatha Yoga. This discipline would open the sun and moon channels (Ida and Pingala) and strengthen the body and nervous system for the higher levels of yoga, Kundalini Yoga being one of them... Today people say, "I practice Hatha, I practice Kundalini yoga, I practice Raja yoga, I practice nada yoga, I practice Karma yoga, etc.."... Back in the day these schools were all part of one science called yoga. It got broken into little pieces over time as the discipline spread and the higher levels were kept more secretive... The predominant school of yoga that came to the west was Hatha because westerners went to India seeking to learn Yoga. Like all beginners, they were taught Hatha, then came back to the west teaching yoga... not realizing that what they had learned was just the introductory level... And over time, here yoga has degenerated into "yoga booty ballet..." and as dwai points out, very few people have any idea what yoga was originally about... Dwai, my friend... seriously, I have no interest in an ego joust with you. If you want to be right... I concede the floor to you... Yoga, Tai Chi the same...Dan tiens and chakras are the same... Samadhi and the state of Tao... the same... It's all the same...Sorry for my misunderstanding....

Find... A.... Teacher...

Hi Immortal sister, What martial arts have you studied? For everyone interested in the True Nature of Kundalini, I recommend the Aghora trilogy. I cannot comment on the authenticity of the story, but the teachings about kundalini are laid out very well in those books. so, my immortal sister, since you asked... I'll answer. (probably to the chagrin of others) this is my opinion based on my experience, study and understanding. I am still processing it and refining it... Take it for what it's worth... The goal of kundalini work is to burn through karma and stop the cycle of reincarnation. There are physical immortals in yogic tradition, but their goal was to stay in the body so they could retain their awareness and work through their remaining karma so they could stop the cycle of human rebirth and allow the soul to move on to the next level of existence and learning. (i.e samadhi liberation etc...) Kundalini is also called Maya or illusion. Tantrics know that working with kundalini is working with limitation, illusion and karma. Kundalini is illusion. The yogic idea of overcoming illusion is through. ( the fastest way around is through...) Tantrics know this... I have actually have a better understanding of yogic strategy for overcoming illusion than I do of the taoist version. It may be because of my relative lack of understanding of taoism that I have commited to it... (Hmm) anyway... If anyone goes into an in depth study of the differences in spiritual physiology of taoism vs hinduism, i.e chakras vs dan tiens or the hindu vs the taoist 5 elements, there are some pretty major differences. either they are both wrong or they are both right. I do not believe they are wrong. So, if they are both right, they must be different sciences altogether. In my attempts to reconcile the two traditions, I was originally operating from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish the same goals but through different means. But the deeper I got into them, the more I found that it was was very difficult to make them fit neatly into one package. I then, changed tactics and asked myself... "OK if both of these traditions are correct, why do they contradict each other so much? Then I changed my original assumption and decided to look at them from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish different spiritual goals through different energies. bear in mind, the only reason I was forced to go through this process was because the energies of the two traditions were literally fighting each other in me. If this was not the issue, I would be blissfully ignorant and interchanging Yoga for Tao as many others are doing... I was trying to make sense of it so I could continue to practice both... I was unsuccessful. Mao Shan energy practices will not tolerate it... For instance, the chakras... Taoists do not use chakras... Why not? The answer lies in the purpose of the chakras. The chakras are not energy centers. Dan tiens are energy centers designed to collect and process energy. Why? because it takes energy to transform the body into one of light... The chakras do not do this. I used to think that taoists just simply didn't emphasize all of the chakras. But the more I looked into it. the chakras and the dan tiens are totally different animals... The chakras are gateways to psycholigical realms. The chakras are for the transformation of kundalini as she rises through the spine. (i.e. root chakra = material issues, security etc...) As the kundalini moves through the chakras, the person burns through their karma (emotional, psycholigical issues) and transforms their understanding Now, if the chakras were important to taoist goals (i.e., becoming a celestial immortal) the Taoists would have discovered them. When a yogi reaches samadhi they leave their body behind. Taoist immortals take their body with them... I am getting a headache... Gotta leave the computer for a while... I should also probably point out that I cannot speak for all sects of Taoism. My experience is in Shang Ch'ing Shamanic Taoist practices which have a very distinctive feel. My experience with Yogic stuff was that it was a very "human" feeling energy. Shang Ching techniques... especially the shamanic martial arts do not feel human. They can be very spooky that way... It may very well be that other taoist arts are more human and merge better with yoga...

Hi Scotty, I appreciate your perspective and you raise some good points. I can be a know it all sometimes... If I had achieved the highest state of either taoism or tantra I would not be on this forum... I do have almost 20 years of experience at trying to integrate the two arts at the higher levels and the result was disastrous. I did then do some research into the history and theory of both and I found that in order to truly excel at them, one needs to understand the religious purposes behind them. So, I am not just speaking from my experience... That is what got me into trouble in the first place.. I found it necessary to get out of my narcissism and just my experience. So, what I am reacting to in others is what I myself did... I understand that I may need to find another way to express that. When I became satisfied that I understood the purpose of Yoga in context of its original purpose in the religion it comes from, I realized that it was not what I wanted. People get sidetracked by energy experiences.... I did. It wasn't until I had MAJOR energy sickeness from mixing Mao Shan shamanic martial arts with Kundalini yoga and sanskrit mantra that I HAD to stop and really take a look at what I was doing to myself. So, the opinions I have stated about the purpose of Yoga and the purpose of Tao is not JUST my opinion or my personal projection. What I am saying is that to truly understand and benefit from these energtic exercises they must be practiced in context of religious and philosohical understanding. And from a religious perspective, Hinduism/budddhism is VERY different from Taoism. This is clear to native hindus and taoists. But, we westerners are as a culture are so new to these ideas, we don't care where they come from, we just want to fill the gaping hole in our souls from 2 thousand years of metaphysical starvation.... If I had to summarize in a few words the major difference, It is this... Yoga is meant to burn away karma of past lives by igniting kundalini. This either shortens the amount of subsequent lives to be lived, or results in liberation of the soul to move to next level. Taoism, especially early Taoism (Such as Shang Ch'ing which we both practice) is about transforming the body, preserving the consciousness of the individual and transforming them into celestial immortals. Yoga is about pyschological transformation with physical transformation as a side effect, Tao is about physical transformation with psychological transformation as a side effect. In early taoism there was not a concept of "enlightenment". That idea came from the introduction of buddhism. That is not my opinion... If anyone chooses to study the literature, scriptures and ancient writings of both religions. These differences are obvious. We, in the west, are so amazed at the energetic component, many of us do not study these arts in their original context. In the traditional contexts of both of these disciplines, religious and philosophical understanding was integral to the teaching of energetic disciplines. We, in the west do not do this. We just like to "play with energy"... My contention is that it is our modern monotheistic culture in the west that has predisposed us to project onto eastern religions and practices the idea that everything is the same... ( basically, there is ONE god). This is a holdover from Roman conquest of Europe when Roman catholicism sought to integrate European pagan religions into Christianity. I suppose if I had not practiced an extremely esoteric and powerful internal taoist discipline, I may have never been forced to figure out why the energies do not mix. My *opinion*, based on my experience, my study and my observation of others is that many people who mix these kinds of disciplines together are initially, at the beginning levels, are enjoying some benefits both physically and emotionally, but I also think many people who do this over long periods of time may be suffering from low grade energy sickness and not even realize it... So, yes, scotty. I am sometimes hostile and aggressive. Because I am reacting from my own experience. And it is my ineffective attempt to be helpful. But I do feel that it is important to be knowledgeable and responsible with energy teachings. That is my desire when I speak out so annoyingly. I'm working on it. Thanks for your perspective... Mike

Well Dwai, I appreciate your personal experience. I am not speaking my opinion or just my experience. I speaking about about the historical perspective and purpose. My opinion and your opinion is not relevant except to ourselves... But I think you have it backwards. The goal for you is that Tai Chi leads you to samadhi. But that is NOT what the original design for Tai Chi. The martial aspect may be the side effect for you. I respectfully suggest you do some research on the history of Tai Chi. I do understand what samadhi means. I've spent 15 years studying, practicing and teaching kundalini yoga, hatha yoga and sanskrit mantra and have studied with some high level masters. I appreciate your experience and in no way do I want to minimize it. If you had said, "in my experience, tai Chi and yoga do the same things for me and resemble the samadhi state.." I would have stayed silent because that is your experience. But you were speaking very authoritatively when you said, "Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state." That's your goal. And maybe the goal of many others, but it is not my goal nor is it the goal of traditional taoism... That is a homogenized western ideal that all spiritual disciplines are basically the same... They're not... So, assuming you do have a authoritative knowledge of yoga and samadhi, I'm not sure you have an authoritative knowledge of taoism if you think that Samadhi is interchangeable with "all" taoist practices. So, Dwai this isn't personal. I'm not trying to attack you or your experiences, but one of my main pet peaves on this forum is people cavalierly lumping together Taoism, hinduism and buddhism into one spiritual grab bag based purely on feeling. I realize that for many people, that works just fine for them. But for some of us serious about taoism, it just muddies the waters and adds to the mediocrity of taoist teaching here in the west...

One of my students briefly trained in Mo Pai with Kosta and ended up going to the doctor complaining of pain in the stomach. (because of packing Chi in the LDT) I don't reccommend trying any high level energy work from a book or picture but especially in the case of Mo Pai. If done incorrectly you could be causing yourself SERIOUS injury. If someone wants to train in Mo Pai, I suggest finding a qualified teacher and training with them in person for a good long while. These disciplines were never meant to be learned in a weekend or from books and pictures...

1) Get a teacher. Don't try and do it yourself. A teacher can help you choose appropriate exercises for you. 2) If your energy practices keep you awake, then do them in the morning and simply meditate before bed...

woops double post..

My apologies if I misinterpreted your post. As shocking as it seems, I see things opposite from you in this regard. Any commonalities between yoga ( in this instance I assume the post originator meant Hatha Yoga) and Tai Chi Chuan are only side effects. tranquility, health, energy etc... For many, these side effects are the main focus, so at the "lower" levels, these commonalities would be predominant. As you know Hatha Yoga is primarily concerned with opening the Ida and pingala channels and strengthening the body and nervous system for opening the shushumna channel in the spine for higher yogic techniques to facilitate the rise of Kundalini. The purpose of Hatha Yoga from the beginning is a hindu yogic spiritual one designed to aid the practitioner into deeper seated meditations and ultimately spiritual liberation. Tai Chi Chuan was created to be a very lethal martial art. It uses Chi energy, not for spiritual reasons but because chi power is the most effective fighting weapon. The health benefits and feelings of spiritual euphoria are enjoyable side effects of Tai Chi (and certainly can be used toward spiritual enlightenment) in the beginning but are not the initial purpose or end goal of Tai Chi. On the battlefield, one cannot take the time to "bliss out" in a samadhi state when someone is coming at you with a hatchet... At the Higher levels yoga is about spiritual liberation... at the higher levels, Tai Chi is a killing art.. Many will, no doubt, take offense at the idea of tai chi's purpose being to kill... But remember, hundreds of years ago in medieval China, Chi was not just a spiritual concept. It was an everyday reality for Chinese culture and as such was used for both spiritual and mundane purposes. The idea that Chi and more specifically Tai Chi as being only about peace, love and enlightenment is a modern western concept seen mostly in "Tai Chi for Health" type practices. So, if you are responding to me directly and asking if I agree with you that Tai Chi and Yoga share more commonalities at the higher levels.. I disagree... See, I thought you knew this based on our previous discussions and were trying to bait me into a debate... Sorry dwai, I have to disagree with you, also... Taoism is not Hinduism/buddhism. Taoist energy techniques do not follow the 8 fold path of yoga. Samadhi is an indian concept. Taoism is not about Samadhi... Two completely different spiritual paths seeking different goals with different tools... I know this is not PC in today's new agey supermarket of homogenized spiritual capitalism... I didn't like it either... but imposing my personal fantasy on Taoism didn't work for me... But back to the point of the original question... Eviander, try both and see which one you like or do both... For your purposes, there is no reason you can't do both...

That seems like a great idea. I suspect that it will probably take a long time to find out to what degree the problem is spiritual. I would suggest that you resist the temptation to "spiritualize" the problem. That, to me, sounds like a recipe to distance yourself from the problem. bottom line is that your situation sounds pretty serious. As was already said, everything is already spiritual.

Ask your counselor first... Nobody on this forum is going to have any real idea what you're problem is. If you are concerned that it is spiritual, then find a spiritual teacher you can see in person and go to counseling Maybe see a psychiatrist. If you are having real medical, psychological or spiritual problems, do not follow any advice from an internet forum....

No, Santi... they're exactly the same... Every art is exactly the same... Oy.. Give me a break. Go pick a fight with someone else...

New Dawn, I also say with respect, that I must agree that your Tai Chi instruction may be lacking. Traditional Tai Chi IS a holistic Chi Kung practice. there are countless Chi Kung prepatory exercises involved. As I said earlier "Tai Chi for Health" type of training is not as in depth as traditional Tai Chi martial training. I do not think it serves you to get defensive. But your description of Tai Chi vs Holistic Chi Kung is also inaccurate. What someone earlier reffered to as "real" Tai Chi was in reference to traditional Tai Chi Martial training. Your teacher may be a very nice person and may even be a very good practitioner, but he or she is not teaching you a complete Tai Chi system. Traditional TC contains lots of stretching and Chi Kung warm up. And many people study the traditional method specifically to strengthen the back. If you are not getting that in your training, you are not receiving traditional or complete Tai Chi training...

Hmm I'm not sure I agree with you. My experience is exactly the opposite... If done correctly and with adequate stretching and warm-up, Tai Chi is extremely good for the back. alot of "Tai Chi for Health" is taught and performed incorrectly and when done wrong can be very harmful to back, knees, hips etc...... In terms of standing Chi Kung, I know of nothing better for the back. My experience is that standing postures when done right always realign my spine and relieve any back pain... This isn't to cast any doubt on Yoga... At all. Yoga is great for the back too....

MCO in reverse is also an accepted direction. Don't force it... let it go in whatever direction it needs to...

You are speaking an intellectual half-truth to avoid yourself... You;re playing word games. you are not speaking from experiential understanding. My original comment about you needing more yang was not an intellectual response to your words, it was an energetic revelation to me based on your freudian slip about wanting to be guided by women... Meditate on it for a while, If I am wrong, you'll know it.. But I can see it is bugging you... So look into it... What have you got to lose? OK, I'm done for awhile, I need to eat something...

sorry... the building is not a good metaphor... let me think of a better metaphor... My powerful sister.... sounds like you need to forgive someone who has hurt you... Then you could contribute without fear or anger... I for one want to hear what you have to contribute... forget about the opening post. I can feel that there are men listening who honestly want to learn...

I completely agree. Much of my posts are designed to pique peoples' interest so they seek out a real teacher to guide them experientially.

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I would love to... this realization was life changing for me.. I'm a little hesitant because I am fairly certain it will ruffle some feathers on both sides of the sexual street. But let me first suggest that you meditate and examine the concept of strength vs power. I mean for weeks or months. Look everywhere in Nature and society for the difference between the two and learn to distinguish one from the other... Our modern society has completley forgotten this disticntion and is IME and IMO is a MAJOR key to magical accomplishment. If you want to be a toist wizard... Learn this distinction and then internalize it... It can only be learned in experience. Not in words... Strength = the steel girders of a building.. Power = the electricity that powers it.... The steel girders provide the shape of the building. The electricity makes lights, elevators, telephones and computers work. This is my recollection of aquote from one of deng ming dao's books. I like alot... A chinese Taoist master and young american student are standing on a streetcorner. The student asks, "Master please explain yin and yang." The master says, I cannot explain it in words." "then show me." says the student. "Yang is the light post and yin is the traffic going by." The student says... "That is exactly the opposite of what I have read in books." The master said, that is why you shouldn't learn Tao from a book." Maybe start the power/strength discussion in another thread. I don't want to hijack this thread... But for now, let me say that it is easier for me to teach this concept in person, not with words. These forces of yin and yang are not intellectual concepts. They are real. and they operate under real laws. I learned this concept in Shang Ch'ing martial arts. In our strikes, there are always simultaneous yin and yang. Unlike some other IMA applications where first there is a pull (yin) and then a push (yang.) In Spirit Fighting there are two (almost) simultaneous strikes... First the yin hand strikes from behind and disrupts the Chi flow of the body drawing all the energy of the body to heal that spot struck by the yin hand. This leaves the front of the body without Wei (external) Chi and is vulnerable to attack. Then the yang hand immediately strikes the front of the body. The impact is devastating. The victim feels the impact of the yang hand and thinks the Yang hand has done all the damage, but the truth is that the Yin hand did all the work and the yang hand takes all the credit. This is why we have a saying, "Behind every successful man is a good woman." Nowadays that is a sexist and innacurate statement. But the principle is true when we talk about the function of yin and yang in creation... This is why I originally talked about that even if men were to do all the "creating" in this world, it is just the external, visible result. The Yin (feminine) still set up the scenario for the men to do all the "creating". I still think people are confusing industriousness for creativity. There is a difference. In any case, even if Agape were correct that men are doing all the creating, it is only a surface interpretation. Under the surface, the Yin is doing all the creating and the Yang is just taking all the credit. As has been said before. It takes both yin and yang to create. To all the ladies that feel slighted. I welcome your input. I understand why Agape's posts are offensive to you. I do understand where Agape is coming from and I actually think that a male perspective is very helpful to him. From what I see, he does not understand the feminine and more feminine input, if done reactively will only confuse him further and justify (in his mind) his perception. I've been where he is, so I am not offended by him. But I also see that unlike Non, what Agape needs is more yin. But because he doesn't understand her, he keeps driving yin away from him...

Well Non, I think any physical activity will help. If you are studying Tai Chi I reccomend you find someone who teache it as a martial art. A true Tai Chi martial artist teacher will show you the external side of Tai chi also. But in your case any physical activity will help. But, aside from that, I believe you need some counseling. I do not believe you will be able to work through your women issues without some counseling. This forum won't help.

I agree and I would add that it is time to allow the power and creativity of the feminine. this combined with your staement iswhat I think the "aquarian shift" or whatever energetic evolution that is occurring is all about...