fiveelementtao

Why ask me about KAP? I am not involved with KAP. I just used it as example. You guys are right in that no one has the authority to judge another's path. But, when someone asks about where to start in the Taoist path, I find it irresponsible to infer that all one needs to do is read a book. Books should be a supplementary tool. An armchair taoist is just that. If someone sits in an armchair reading books in isolation by definition that makes them an armchair taoist. Secular.... KAP is a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. Real learning takes effort. If you really wanted to know about KAP, you could very easily find out today. Put some effort into it. You are surrounded by KAP students on taobums... I think books are awesome too. I probably have more than you.... But reading a book by Deng ming Dao or Bruce Frantzis does NOT in any way mean you are training with him any more than reading a medical book makes you a doctor. Some of the books by deng ming dao and others are as much fiction as they are real. They are tools for the entertainment of the intellect to inspire further inquiry. They are not considered as scriptures or textbooks... I challenge any of you to contact these authors and ask them if they would consider reading their books as a replacement for personal training... Go to any Taoist temple, monastery etc. and tell the the priest or master that it is not necessary to learn from a teacher... Please tell me what they tell you... A book cannot correct your mistakes.... That is what real learning is, having a teacher guide you and correct you. Only a living breathing teacher can do that. Listen, my point was never to bag on people for reading books. I'm getting more upset about this than is necessary. I think it is fairly obvious to anyone that Taoism and taoist practices cannot be deeply experienced or understood without in depth training. Everyone has the right to learn as much or as little as they want and all paths are just as valid. But, I have a very hard time just sitting by while others claim that reading books is all that is necessary.... And, while I enjoy books as much as anyone, no one can responsibly or believably say that books are an effective replacement for training with a qualified teacher. My only point is that books are NOT a replacement for a real teacher...

What??? I just told you. Do a search on taobums for KAP. It's all over the place! Really? according to whom? To you? To others who have only learned through books or videos? I sounds as though you do not value Taoism very much if you really believe that. Would you trust a carpenter to build your house if he had never learned his craft from a master? Would you trust a dentist to perform oral surgery on you if he had only read some books and never gone to school? Would you trust a physician who had only read books? How much more important is it to learn a spiritual practice like the Tao from a qualified teacher? Books and videos can be very helpful, but they can only teach preliminary techniques and at best will give one the proper motivation to follow through and learn the more advanced techniques. I myself have a video series and if someone were to only practice what I teach on the DVD, it would be very helpful, but there is no way to teach the higher levels of any given practice or tradition except in person. If Tao "ism" is a hobby and someone only wishes the preliminary techniques, then books are great and can give great benefit for a lifetime. But, I doubt there is anyone on this forum who has trained with a qualified teacher who will tell you that you only need books to really learn to practice the Tao. That's all for me on this thread. If someone is determined to be an armchair taoist. there's nothing anyone can say.

Can't find a teacher??? are you serious??? For goodness sake, KAP teaches people live via the internet! How much easier could it be? This forum is FILLED with teachers! With today's small world there literally is NO excuse for not being able to find a teacher. If this person were to ask, "Anyone know of any teachers in my city?" There would be a deluge of links given. If there really is no teacher or practice in their city, they can make a modest trip to a nearby city and begin a practice. People travel to me to learn from all over.... In the old days, if you wanted to learn, you did whatever you had to do in order find a teacher. You saved, you scrimped, you traveled on foot for days!!! At most one can say it's inconvenient to find a teacher. If someone is just curious, then by all means read a few books until you are serious enough to find a real tradition...

Tao "ism"?... I would recommend finding a teacher and a practice. Books should only be supplemental (IMO).

This is my experience also. In the tradition that I was taught, The postures and forms release latent internal energy. There is no need to build it up or draw from outside of you. In fact, if one tries to use too much breath to force the energy, it can cause an overload and you can blow a fuse. I was taught that most of the methods taught that need complex breath or visualizations are "layman" techniques taught to the masses and that the most powerful techniques were rarely taught and were actually the most simple that needed little or no visualization. Complex techniques requiring lots of breath or visualization were actually created to satisfy the layman's curiosity. The "real" techniques are so simple that they could be hidden in plain sight while being able to distract the laymen with complex breath work which took many years to master. (that's what I was told anyway...) For example in my tradition, the two most powerful martial forms in our tradition are not taught by the grandmaster anymore because he says they're "Too Simple." This statement ensures that most power hungry students pursue the more complicated forms. My understanding is that he hasn't taught these forms in over fourty years. I was able to learn them recently and I understand why he has kept them secret. But they are very simple....

As you say, a true system will have both. That's why it is important to find a qualified teacher of a good system. You mentioned Tai Chi... Tai Chi has been taught incorrectly for the most part. Very few teachers teach authentic Tai Chi Chuan. True Tai Chi includes the softness of relaxed muscles as well as the "hard" aspect of tendon strength. Without the tendon power, Tai Chi is mostly just a health exercise. True Tai Chi should look soft but there is a hardness underneath it. This is something that only can be learned from a qualified teacher.

every day sex is alot... try just giving her oral sex on the days you don't want to come. If it is that she justs wants an orgasm, she shouldn't mind. If she needs coitus every day, she may be addicted to your energy...unfortunately when you have sex, you run the risk of having your partner drain you of your energy. It is helpful to find a partner whom you really know and who wants to share a spiritual practice with you. This is one reason for marriage. People have sex with just about anyone when they are single. But, few people marry someone until they have reeeeally gotten to know that person. Having sex is fun, no one likes it more than me. But I can tell you there is HUUUGE difference when you make love to your committed life partner who is emotionally and spiritually committed to your well being. Sometimes, we just need to stay single for awhile to consolidate our energy. But sometimes, our partners can be willingly or unknowingly draining our energy....

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You have valid questions but you were getting personal That was pretty aggressive, I wouldn't want to answer someone who talked to me that way. Would you? So, I was glad to see that he didn't take your bait and fight back. If maybe you at least acted like you were respectful and asked your questions, you might get better answers... That's what I meant by the high road. Vaj was still respectful to you in spite of your hostility...

I practiced these Chia techniques for six years, so I am speaking from experience. They do not help. they are harmful. I ended up badly overheating myself and needed some serious energy healing. I was horny all the time and frustrated. The "extra energy" I was feeling was simply overheated Yang in my system that was literally cooking my organs and tissues. The "feeling" of extra energy can simply mean you are cooking yourself. Do not try learning sexual kung fu from a book. True conversion of Jing to shen must be done before the sperm has been activated and heated up. what you are practicing is not retention, and can be extremely harmful. During sex, you are activating the sperm which becomes agitated and wants to be ejaculated. Once you get up to "the edge of the point of no return" It is already too late. That sperm is activated and needs to be released or it will simply sit on your body and cook you and then rot. What you are doing is heating up your body with lust and not satisfying it. The heated up Chi will actually speed up the decaying process of the organs and tissues. That is why you want to be around your girlfriend all the time. You are overheated with Yang and your body seeks to be balanced out with her yin. She is annoyed because on some level she knows that you are simply horny. Seriously, you are better off just ejaculating and releasing the tension. The problem with sexual kung fu techniques practiced out of context to the original teachings is that they heat up the Chi and once you activate the semen, it stays in your body, heats up your system and mind and then rots inside of you. True retention involves long periods of celibacy in an environment that does not stimulate the sex drive. It is also accompanied with meditations, herbs, qigong and other exercises that make celibacy easier and actually help the "Un activated" semen move up the spine. The sexual kung fu techniques that are circulating in popular "Taoist" books are either made up or taken out their original contexts. If you are not accompanying your celibacy efforts with the prescribed exercises, you are simply frustrating yourself and heating yourself up. If your goal is to lengthen life, then practice moderation and have a healthy sex life. If you want to practice true "retention", find a teacher and learn the proper methods.... I know that this may anger some of you who practice this from books, but talk to me in 10 years. Many of you will have a different story.

P.S. Vaj... Good response. I was hoping you would take the high road...

It's not a 4 dimensional problem. You are simply making it complicated. It's very easy to explain. The mind loves to complicate things.

Can't be done... If you believe that, you are mistaken about how much power you have. This is ego delusion... As the Dalai Lama once said... "You can't liberate me. Only I can liberate myself..."

People are getting bent out of shape about the "downward" path of the Mao Shan. Downward means more than just the directional flow of the energy. It also refers to the mindset necessary for progress in that path. It is a well accepted GENERAL fact that Kundalini is an upward flowing energy, right? So, why are so many people getting personally offended at the idea of a downward flowing energy. What are people reacting to? Why the personal offense? Take Kundalini for example. Kundalini is an upward flowing path also because it is an "Earth to Heaven to Earth" method. We all know that Kundalini rests in its dormant state in the base of the spine - The "earth" chakra. As it rises through the chakras it reaches the crown (Heaven) the final stage of kundalini is then bring it back down to the Root chakra again (Back to earth). Now, just because the general flow is upward, that does not negate the other directions that kundalini flows. Mao Shan is a Heaven to Earth to Heaven energy flow. That makes it a downward flow. So, yes it is possible to have all kinds of upward, downward sideways etc.... in that. But there is more the entire purpose and meaning of the phrase "Downward flow..." What I have just described is a well accepted understanding of Kundalini. If this is so readily accepted, why do people get so personally bent out of shape when they hear of another type of energy that is Downward? Seriously, I don't get why people get upset. Unless "downward" strikes people as trying to be superior. It isn't. It is just a different path to the same destination... But a different path, nonetheless.... But there is more to it than just the directional flow. Heaven to Earth to Heaven nas multiple meanings on multiple levels. It isn't just about the linear flow of the energy. I could get into more details but there are those on this board that get very persnickety about the idea that there may not be a "one size fits all" energy out there... So, I won't waste my energy trying to explain something that has to be experienced. In terms of experience, I have experienced both types of energy and there IS a difference. For those who haven't experienced it and still feel they can make judgements... Well, you know where I'm going...

Little1 You bring up a good point. Much of what Chia teaches is very effective. The half-baked techinques i refer to are the "million dollar point" using your fingers to retain semen etc... Chi and Winn both have retracted that teaching and admit they are dangerous... However, you are cloaking your response as a question. You really aren't interested in my response. you are making a statement. I have no interest in arguing with you. If you're experience is real, then why bait me into a fight. If you simply state your experience, I will respect it. I can have my opinion while you can have your experience. they don't have to agree. That is the beauty of a holographic universe. If you truly have mastered the art, then I say, teach it...

Well, I myself haven't gotten past anything. I am as limited, egotistical and human as anyone. for example, my ego is screaming at me like crazy right now to respond to lucky7's jab at me and hit back. But that is L7's experience of my post, if I react to it, I will be dragged down into my ego and get trapped in a cycle of verbal competition and I will not happy. So, I am seeking to humble myself and tell myself, "That is his/her perspective and they have a right to it. Their opinion (whether right or wrong) doesn't change anything. It's OK if others disagree with my experience... However, I have realized for myself that the mind is only good for functioning on the earth plane. It does not help me in spiritual pursuits. So, for ME, I seek to accept my ego and listen to it and decide if what it is telling me is something I need to act on. If not, I accept the feeling or discomfort and ACT from my spirit. So, in short, I haven't gotten PAST my ego, I seek to integrate it and allow it it's function which is to help me survive on the earth plane. My ego is my friend and servant and I need it... It's not an either/or proposition. It is a matter of function. I have not mastered it AT ALL. But it is an ongoing process that I seek to relax into....

BRAVO! Very well put. I would add that the mind is like a dog. Some breeds are very smart and will completely take control if the owner is weak. Dogs WANT to find the alpha that will take control of the pack. If the Spirit is not in control or does not become the alpha, the mind/ego will take over because there is a leadership vacuum. BUT, if the spirit is in control the mind will happily OBEY the spirit. The mind is directly connected to EGO. Both are creations of limited reality. They are necessary for human functioning but they are only TOOLS of the spirit to operate in limited creation. It is necessary to have mind/ego to function in this limited world. But they have NO understanding of infinity. They are NOT infinite and CANNOT comprehend infinite reality. So, to try to comprehend infinity with limited Mind/ego is a total waste of time and is merely an exercise in EGO and is always fear based. When the Spirit is in control (Alpha) the mind does not try to understand infinity it will recede when one goes beyond the confines of three dimensions. But if the mind is alpha, it will stop the spirit from experiencing beyond the three dimensions by getting bogged down in intellectual hair splitting. This is a protective tactic of the ego/mid to keep itself from being annhilated by the experience of Infinity. If one is trying to understand infinity through intellectual analysis instead of direct experience, the ego becomes a shield to protect the mind from the enormity of infinity. To experience Infinity one must be willing to die and this is terrifying to the mind. and so, to protect itself from death it uses the ego to bolster itself with the idea that simply through intellect, the universe can be comprehended. So, when I read posts of people claiming "enlightenment" because of their intellectual rambling what I hear is an ego in fear of annihilation and suppressing the spirit. This is the biggest hurdle I have with my spirit fighting students. If one cannot let go of the mind, the art is simply an internal martial art and the power is limited. If one can let go of the mind and experience the 10 dimensions of the Universe, THEN it becomes spirit fighting and the power is magnified thousands of times and one can channel the infinite power of the Universe. But there is always a death experience before that can happen... and it can be very frightening... Bottom line is... if it can't be backed up with direct experience it is all talk...

I wholeheartedly agree. If you are truly interested in learning, find someone to teach you. If you don't know anyone in your area, then be willing to travel. I agree, most of the stuff on the internet and in books is garbage or is very difficult to learn by yourself. If you are interested in energy cultivation, I strongly suggest a physical art, such as Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, Tao Gar etc... these are designed to help the cultivation. Semen retention is usually practiced in combination with physical arts designed to faciliate the energy conversion through meditation. You are really are possible harming yourself or wasting your time that can be better utilized with a teacher's help.

Retention is different from abstaining or moderation. Abstaining from release for a week or two is not retention. This is called moderation. true retention invlolves directing the sexual fluids up the spine. This is different from abstaining. If one can find a practice that naturally aids in converting jing to shen, then abstaining will be easy and true retention can occur. If one is walking around with blue balls full of cum and is crazy horny, they are harming themselves and when they do eventually "indulge" they will be more addicted than ever.... If this issue is about the psychological addiction to sex, that is a different matter and should be taken up with a psychological or medical professional. This problem will not be solved by simply abstaining from sexual release...

No problem. Stop. You're wasting your time. Don't even try without the guidance of a master. All that you are doing is building up semen in your testicles and heating up your body with lust. You are better off learning an energy practice, preferable a physical one like an internal martial art and then seeking out a teacher to guide you in retention, if you still think you need it... retention is over rated and is not necessary except at the highest levels of energy work.

I am becoming concerned with posts asking about semen retention and some of the "Home Baked" techniques that people are coming up for it. Semen retention should not be attempted without the guidance of a master. The idea of the million dollar point or using the fingers to hold back ejaculation is harmful to the body and does absolutely nothing towards semen retention. The semen is absorbed through the tissues and NOT redirected up the spine as is the goal. Semen retention is only helpful if one is able to do so without lusting all the time. If you are refraining from sexual release but walking around full of lust, you are worse off. Because the lust creates a great deal of heat which is unhealthy for energy cultivation. Unless one is in an environment conducive to celibacy and doing exercises and techniques which naturally guide the semen up the spine, the "retention" is not achieved. Refraining from sexual release, in and of itself, also does not achieve the goal of guiding the semen up the spine. The semen simply pools up and causes extreme sexual frustration. This agitates the spirit and mind and is worse than healthy sexual release. Michael Win and Mantak Chia were instrumental in teaching these home baked retention methods. Both have publicly retracted their support for their earlier teachings and have admitted that these practices are physically harmful. Unless one has been instructed by a qualified master in the techniques involved in semen retention, one is better off exercising moderation and enjoying release so that the spirit is pacified and the body is not overheated with lust and mental distraction. If one is in a loving relationship, one can use the interchange of sexual energies with a partner for cultivation. This is better than "burning with lust." Having moderate sexual release and practicing energy cultivation can still result in powerful gains in energy... I am also concerned with the amount of people on this forum who are using drugs as "aids to enlightenment". I have no personal issue with people who choose to use recreational drugs. But, my sense is that those who regularly use drugs as enlightenment aids are doing so to escape their feelings and couching it as "enlightenment." Enlightenment is not an escape from negative feelings. Enlightenment is the process of FACING one's issues and working through them. True Enlightenment is measured by spiritual, mental and emotional maturity. This has to be earned. I will even go so far as saying that spiritual experiences from energy cultivation are NOT enlightenment unless it is accompanied by emotional maturity and compassion. I have personally witnessed numerous energy masters achieve these states including death and ressurrection, moving energy up the spine to the crown, achieving "samadhi", Spiritual powers etc... But they were still very egotistical and narcissistic and definitely NOT enlightened. So, having an "experience" of enlightenment means nothing if it does not result in emotional maturity. Drugs mimic the effects of naturally occurring chemicals released by the glands of the brain. If these chemicals are released naturally through disciplined energy work, then the benefits can result in longer life, health and greater consciousness (Notice I did not say enlightenment). The price for consciousness has to be paid. If one pays with patience, and discipline, then the results can be lasting and healing. If one cheats by using drugs, the effects are short lived and in the long run, stunts the awareness, destroys the body, breeds dependence, traps one in their intellect and shuts off the spirit. Intellectual depth has NOTHING to do with enlightenment. So, coming on this forum and spouting deep thoughts that have to be explained in even greater depth is NOT the sign of enlightenment. I will say, that it is very easy for me (and I'm sure others) to spot the drug users by your posts. Drug use traps the user in their intellect. Intellectual addicts believe that "deep thoughts" are a sign of enlightenment. Enlightenment is a state that needs no words. Those who speak don't know and those who know don't speak. I am NOT enlightened. But I can tell if one is trapped in their intellect. (takes one to know one.) I encourage everyone to seek out a teacher and a PRACTICE and use it to gain enlightenment, rather than cheat with drugs and become trapped in false enlightenment and ego of the intellect. IMO if someone wants enlightenment, instead of trying to "figure out the universe" learn to practice compassion in their relationships.

Caves represent the "empty spaces" within our body i.e. the glands in the brain, the dan tiens etc... Meditating on the empty spaces within us activates the potential in the wuji within. From the emptiness, power is manifested.

I just read this whole thread and am a little confused. Is this entity part of the psychic attacks you speak of? or is it something different. This may be an entity to protect you.. A true spirit guide, angel, etc... will NEVER force themselves on you and will rarely manifest themselves to you. They do not need your recognition to do their work for you. However, mental projections and negative entities will play with you and alternate between blissful and negative and will seek your acknowledgement of them. With a true angel, spirit guide, etc... there will be no confusion as to it's origin or intent. I would use caution here and really examine yourself and your motives. Many people experiment with spirits and use them like a drug. This never results in spiritual growth. I suggest taking a very close and honest look and determine if you have any desires for escapism. If you use drugs, I suggest stopping. If you have a teacher, ask advice. If you don't have one, I suggest finding one....